A reader writes:
I listen to a radio show called People to People and the commentator, Bob George states that we never have to ask for forgiveness because, it has already been given. We just have to give God thanks for forgiveness.
Callers confront Mr George with 1 John 1 :9 which says, If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Mr George states that in the Greek, the real translation would be in the “past tense” not the present, so the verse should read, “ he has been faithful to have forgiven us our sins. “
He uses this to support his claim that we do not have to ask for forgiveness since it has already been given.
Could you please shed some light on if he is right or not. In the Greek does it really use the past tense and not the present?
I haven’t heard Mr. George’s claims, so I can’t comment on them directly, but if he has said what you report then he is flatly in error.
First, Greek does not have a past tense. It has several tenses that can refer to the past: the pluperfect, perfect, imperfect, and (often) the aorist.
Here’s a so-literal-it’s-klunky-English translation of 1 John 1:9 with the relevant verbs (and one other important word) emphasized:
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just that he would forgive us the sins and would cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
The first verb in this that describes God is "is" (estin). It’s an ordinary, present-tense "is." Nothing special about it; nothing past-tensy at all. In context, it tells us that God is faithful and just, not that God has been faithful.
But John has something particular in mind when he says that God is faithful and just, so he clarifies what he means by introducing the clause beginning with "that," which I’ve put in red.
In Greek the word corresponding to "that" is hina, which is often found at the beginning of clauses where the verbs are in the subjunctive mood. That’s what we have here. The verbs in this clause aren’t in the indicative mood but the subjunctive mood, which is why I’ve translated them as "would forgive" and "would cleanse." They tell us what God would do if we confess.
Now, these two verbs are in the aorist tense, and the aorist tense usually indicates an action occurring in the past–if the aorist is in the indicative mood–but in the subjunctive mood the aorist tells you nothing about time. It just refers to the occurrence of an event without telling you whether it is past, present, or future. Since we’re in the subjunctive mood here, one cannot appeal to the aorist as showing that God has already done something.
So if Mr. George has been claiming what is reported about the Greek in this passage, he is making some elementary (first year Greek) mistakes, including not recognizing the correct tense of "is" and/or not recognizing that the aorist doesn’t point to the past in the subjunctive.
The claim that we shouldn’t ask God for forgiveness but should only thank him for receiving it is particularly absurd because Jesus built into the model prayer for his followers the petition "forgive us our debts." That "forgive" is in the imperative mood which, in Greek, is used to ask for things (among other things), and here it is being used to ask for forgiveness.
Unless one is going to say that the Lord’s Prayer is not for Christians, you’re going to have to say that Christians have an ongoing need to ask for forgiveness.
I agree with Jimmy’s assesment of this passage, but I would quibble that ‘tense’, while the traditional term, is a misnomer for Greek verbs. Greek ‘tenses’, even in the indicative mood, indicate primarily aspect, quite apart from time value. Time value is primarily supplied by context. The aorist is the basic verb form in Greek – it simply describes the action without modal nuance – and one would use it unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise. Aorist indicatives are used not infrequently in Paul’s letters to indicate present time as well.
Jimmy, do you take hina + the subjunctive here as a result clause? I notice that the NAB simply treats it as an ‘and’.
This seems to me one of the obvious idiocies of Sola Scriptura–one is reduced to haggling over tiny pieces of words like trying to appreciate a painting by having your nose right on the canvas. One the one hand we are told that Scripture is so clear any Joe can interperet and does not need an authoritattive church. Yet when they get to a passage like Matt 16, suddenly an army of scholars rush in writing twenty-page papers arguing that the ending of petros means Peter can’t possibly be the rock.
“I listen to a radio show called People to People” looks like its time to find a new program to listen to!
James 5:14-15 should also be raised when this issue is discussed.
“Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.” (RSV)
I to listen to People to People, praying that some day soon Catholic radio will come to the Washington D. C. area! (Not that Protestant radio is a valid substitute, but it’s a good way to learn what “the other side” is being taught.)
It’s a hoot listening to Mr. George, but one thing he does have going for him is consistency. Jimmy’s argument concerning the “Our Father” is often dealt with on the radio show. Bob George claims that Jesus lived and taught under the Old Covenant and that this prayer was given to the people of that time as an Old Covenant prayer. There is no reason for today’s Christians to ask for God’s forgiveness since Christ’s death took away the sins of the believer at the cross. According to Mr. George, we live under the New Covenant, which began when Jesus died. Just about everything taught beforehand is irrelevant or to be used only as instruction to show us how impossible it is to be good.
Mr. George is often frazzled when callers bring up 1 John 1:9 to the point of interrupting the caller with accusations of misinterpretation and contradiction.
What I never hear from callers, or from Mr. George, is an examination of Matthew 28:19-20 (the Great Commission), “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Seems to me this command from Jesus came after His death, therefore under the New Covenant!
Jimmy, I hope one day to know only half of what you’ve forgotten.
Dan E., While you wait for Catholic radio to come to D.C., you might consider a Sirius subscribtion. They carry EWTN, and a new Catholic Channel to be programmed by the Archdiocese of New York (starting Dec. 3rd) You can buy the equipment and use it in your car and home.
Michael,
Thanks for the suggestion. I have been tempted to get Sirius, not only because they carry EWTN, but also because of their NFL package. I am more than reluctant, however, to put any of my money into Howard Stern’s pocket, Stern being a major stockholder in Sirius.
I’ll stick with XM and keep pestering them to get EWTN.
Jimmy, I hope one day to know only half of what you’ve forgotten.
So does Jimmy. 🙂
Dan E.:
What about a good Shortwave radio set? EWTN is broadcasting 24 hours on one station or another. You may be able to pick up some programming.
This is what happens when people use a Strong’s concordance instead of study the Greek language. Way to educate this guy, Jimmy. I think we covered that stuff in 1st semester of 1st year Greek. Yes, I’m sure of it.
SDG,
I am not sure if I understood you correctly. I was hoping that you give me the opportunity to post in the combo boxes in the future.
Thanks and wishing you a blessed New Year,
Frankie
Frankie,
Write to me at Decent Films — with your email address — and we’ll discuss it.