A reader writes:
My brother in law is expecting to be "baptized" as a JW in September. I fear that my in-laws, although they don’t agree with this "religion", feel that it has done my brother in law good, and would like all of us (me, my husband and our 4 children) to go. I am planning on declining on attending, and insist that my children stay home with me. I think my husband may go too. What do I do if arguments ensue? I feel that, as a Catholic, I cannot attend because then I would be giving my approval of this. I certainly don’t want my children attending this “baptism”.
If arguments ensue, I would point out that our presence at a ceremonial life event says something. If we attend a wedding, a baptism, or a similar event, we are in a sense lending our endorsement to it or to some aspect of it.
To show up at a Jehovah’s Witness baptism would communicate either approval of the fact that the person is becoming a Jehovah’s Witness or–at a minimum–that one recognizes that there is some kind of legitimacy to the baptism that is being performed, even if one doesn’t approve of the fact it is JWs who are doing it.
To show up at such an event thus would constitute a form of false witness. It would deceive people (either the brother-in-law or others who were at or knew about your attendance at the event) into thinking one of the above things.
Even if one tells the person that you do not approve or do not regard this as a valid baptism, the message will remain that it obviously wasn’t important enough to you to keep you from coming and thus you value what the person will think of you was more important than your concerns about the baptism or the person’s new religion.
And telling the person getting baptized that you think the baptism is invalid doesn’t tell that to all the other people who will see you at the event or who will learn of your presence there.
My policy is that if a sacrament will be valid then it will be possible in principle to attend. My reasoning is that if God is going to show up at the sacrament (in the sense of his action to make the sacrament valid) then it is in principle permitted for me to show up and watch as God does this.
If God isn’t going to "show up," though (meaning: the sacrament will be invalid) then I shouldn’t either.
To do so would send the wrong message, no matter what I might say with my lips.
In the end, it is more loving to an individual (and others) to be honest with them about the fact that a sacrament is not valid–and to prove that you’re serious about that by not showing up–than to paper over the matter and send the message that you’re not really serious or even that you approve.
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One issue you did not address is whether or not the brother-in-law has already been baptized Catholic or in some other faith. If this is the case, the baptism is irrelevant and invalid regardless of whether JWs can baptize validly.
Methodists, Catholics, Orthodox, and Anglicans generally baptize infants and children, but (as in the case of my uncle) if someone baptized in one faith is “born again” into a faith that emphasizes adult baptism, they usually do the whole thing over again with a full immersion.
Generally, it would be inadvisable to attend a second baptism, unless it’s a Catholic conditional baptism or the person’s first baptism was likely invalid but the second one is likely valid (for example, someone going from Mormon to Baptist).
Thanks so much for reiterating this, Jimmy. Since we live right smack in the middle of the bible belt we have to be on our toes, not necessarily concerning invalid baptisms but invalid weddings which are rampant around these parts.
We have this issue in my family all of the time, but in reverse. Whenever we have a sacrament to celebrate, we invite the whole family, including those with a problem with this “whole Catholic thing”. Then, in the invitation, we welcome whoever wants to come, and whoever wants to come to the feast after. That way, no one is excluded. They can explain all of that to their own children.
But don’t Roman Catholic prelates quite frequently attend the ordination ceremonies of Anglicans and Episcopelians (as well as Lutherans and the like) even though the Roman Catholic church doesn’t consider their ordinations valid?
Jeb:
Out of curiosity, can you please give a specific example when that has happened?
was there an assumed fact here? namely, the JW baptism is of a former catholic?
Where Jimmy says:
Couldn’t it just mean that you love the person and want to see what is possibly a big event in their life?
We have dear friends who are LDS (Mormon), and recently their oldest daughter was baptized, and we were invited. We recognize that it was an important moment in her life that she was celebrating, and we struggled with what to do. (Also we were interested in observing the event, I admit.) Eventually we decided that my husband would attend, but I would keep my five-year-old son at home to avoid confusing him or scandalizing him or anything.
If it had been a case of a person converting from Catholicism, Orthodoxy, or Protestantism, I absolutely would not attend — to do so would be to deny the efficacy of their “first” baptism.
It was a tough call in that case and I’m not sure we made the right one (well, I know it was right to keep our older son at home, but I mean, sending my husband to attend as our representative so to speak). The family has attended all our children’s baptisms including the Mass. I realize that it’s not a “tit for tat” situation. I realize that the Mormon baptism is not a valid Christian baptism. Nevertheless I hope that they continue to attend our future children’s baptisms, and we felt it was a courtesy we ought to extend to people who are, really, “like family” to us. If it is not a valid sacrament, then provided it is not an occasion of apostasy (because they are not converts), is it perhaps… just a nothing? And so, is it perhaps harmless to attend?
Feel free to tell me if I’m wrong (like, according to Canon Law rather than opinion)regarding this; it’s probably not the last time it’ll come up, and I certainly do not want to create an occasion of sin or scandal.
Cesar,
I can’t find any examples on the web, but I have read stories about this.
In addition, Catholic prelates have attended Jewish passover seders and even Muhhamaden events.
Cesar,
Here is an example where a catholic attended an ELCA installation ceremony —
http://www.wfn.org/2001/10/msg00077.html
Apparently the monisgnor was an official representative of Rome.
A most curious situation I experienced was being asked to be a God parent at a ceremony at a non denominational evangelical church.
But they don’t do baptisms, they believe in adult baptism, I was told.
Call it a “Christening” but no, not that either I was informed by the Minister. No one could answer my question of what we were doing, only what we weren’t doing.
???
So what happened? I don’t know even though we were there. What changed? Nothing I could see except my bride and I were named official God parents of a beautiful infant boy, for which I’m thankful and will do my best to attend to His welfare when called upon, but I still keep asking myself
what it all means outside of baptism and how it is considered by a very devout Christian community to be, well, Christian.
Look into the Chinese Rites controversy. Unlike the common misconception it is not about a Chinese liturgical rite (like Syro-Malabar) but about Catholic Chinese going to government rites (at that time) that were Confucion or Taoist and had some ancestor worship.
A Catholic can go to a different rite, he may not be agreeing with it, sanctioning it or condoning it, He may go their to support family or part of an official capacity (an invitation from an influential community if you were an elected official for example)
The Assisi celebration (which I realize a lot of conservatives view as bad) by Pope John Paul the Great gives us a model of celebrating and even praying with other religions WHILE recognizing that the Catholic Church holds the FULLNESS of the Truth and holds an OBJECTIVE, ABSOLUTE, and depending on the definition UNCHANGING TRUTH–the Truth of the Church herself, and the Truth it teaches that God became incarnate as man through Jesus to save the Universe and each of us individually from sin by dying on the cross, more importantly RESSURECTING and creating a community specific with specific liturgy (with parametes) and sacraments and teaching authority etc.
HOWEVER, other religions can have parts of the truth, and can have good, and we can recognize that and cooperate with them
Being divisive in communities does not help bring people to the truth.
Taking part in other religious traditions is not necessarily bad.
How about illicit sacraments? I think there is also a case for not turning up when illicit sacraments are celebrated eg. when a friend chooses to receive illicit confirmation.
It depends on how you say illicit
Would you not go to any other religions or specifically a Protestant religious ceremony or party afterwards of let’s say a family or friends, Baptism, bar or bat mitzvah, a post Ramadan Muslim dinner where they had prayer before, a Hindu temple for a festival to look as an observer, a Protestant liturgy that included a quasi communion service?
I think it is the intent of the person going, merely going to support someone on a personal level, or to accept an invitation of family or friend for a cultural custom or rite of initiation, is not wrong
yes, make clear Catholicism is the totality of the path that God wants
but not to reject other good things that are partially true in rites/sacraments/customs of others
I have been at many other parties, religious rites of friends, family and co-workers
I do not believe in their beliefs
THey are not co-equal with Catholicsim
I am not sanctioning anything illicit or schismatic
BUT all Protestants and even some Orthodox or Oriental Christians are schismatic to some point or another although in the Orthodox and Oriental not heretical but schismatic
Proteststants at least most are heretical
(Read Louis Boyers book on the Forms and Structures of Protestanstism)
It depends on what your family member is doing and why he is inviting you.
God can still be present at a “sacrament” even if it is not valid. Certainly, the Catholic Church (and the apostolic succession of Eastern Churches both Orthodox and so called Monosphyte Copts, Armenians, Assyrians who do not call themselves monosphytes)have a unique and full sacramental system based on Apostolic succession and according to Augustine it is not the sanctity of the priest but the form and materials of the sacrament eg the trinitatian formula and water for example (which could be valid with Protestants). While a specific sacrament may not be valid, and while they may not turn the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ, that does not mean that God is not present, that partial or flawed truth is not part of truth or that part of good is not evil.
God is present everywhere. God can be present where God wills. God can well be present in Protestant ceremonies, even if God wants them at Catholic sacraments. So I disagree that the reason that one should stay away because God is not present. God is present in many Protestants and many Protestant churches and ceremonies. They may not have a complete or even accurate understanding of what God wants from them, but God is present.
How about being invited to attend a friend’s graduation ceremony at an unaccredited college? Should I attend or not?
But seriously, if one doesn’t attend relgious family events, how about giving gifts?
It’s really difficult not to attend a friend’s family event, but withholding a gift *on top* of not going…these are things that could lead to the kind of misunderstandings that end friendships.
Francis DS wrote:
“But seriously, if one doesn’t attend relgious family events, how about giving gifts?
It’s really difficult not to attend a friend’s family event, but withholding a gift *on top* of not going…these are things that could lead to the kind of misunderstandings that end friendships. ”
Seems to me that sending a Catechism of the Catholic Church or something of the sort (Answering Jehovah’s Witnesses?) along with a $20 bill might be a not inappropriate gift. I’ve done the same sort of thing for a family friend who’s into vampires, etc.
Glenn
Thank you so much for this. Several years ago our parish priest advised us not to attend my niece’s wedding to the man she’d been living with for three years. Performed by a JP in my sister’s backyard on the summer solstice (as mentioned on the invitation) with readings by Kahlil Gibron, we felt sick at what she was doing. My sister was devastated and is still hurt and angry that we made a stand.
Up until this post I had begun to doubt our decision. It would have been so much easier to attend and keep the peace in the family. Today’s reading, however, (Tuesday, June 27, the narrow road) is in keeping with this post.
Thanks so much!
“Seems to me that sending a Catechism of the Catholic Church or something of the sort (Answering Jehovah’s ”
Glen, you’re too cool to be Catholic. Brilliant! 🙂
Dissident JW member speaks out.
The core dogma of the Watchtower organization is that Jesus had his second coming ‘invisibly’ in the year 1914.Their entire doctrinal superstructure is built on this falsehood.
Jehovah’s Witnesses door to door recruitment is by their own admission an ineffective tactic. They have lost membership in all countries with major Internet access because their false doctrines and harmful practices are exposed on the modern information superhighway.
There is good and valid reasons why there is such an outrage against the Watchtower for misleading millions of followers.Many have invested everything in the ‘imminent’ apocalyptic promises of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and have died broken and beaten.
Now if you wanted to know about the quality of a product,would you listen to the seller or a longtime customer?
—
Respectfully,Danny Haszard http://www.dannyhaszard.com
It’s understandable that one would want to show loving support to a family member, even when they’re doing something that we disapprove of. But we should not support a family member when they’re doing something so manifestly bad for thier well-being. Jehova’s Witness is a not a Christian religion – it’s not even a really a religion. It’s a starry eyed cult that drains most of its members of all remaining intelligence.
Sorry, I have particlar antipathy towards this organization after seeing what it did to my brother while he belonged. I think it would be akin to baring false witness to implicity show support for such a sham of a “baptism.”
Mt 9
And I hope Augie lives near me. 🙂
Honora, God lives you which is more important than Augie.
I think there is an important distinction. If we are talking about a person who is leaving their faith to participate in an invalid/illicit ceremony, then it would be wrong to witness the ceremony. If it’s a case of someone who has never been Catholic in a ceremony that is valid or not, but within their own faith, I don’t see it as scandalous. If it’s a Christian who is leaving Christianity, or Catholic leaving the Church, it would be wrong.
In any case, if family unity could be maintained by sending a gift, or attending the reception, that’s probably a matter for ones own conscience.
I am a former JW elder and I think Ed is pointing out something correctly. I *understand* that the Catholic church holds that only form is required, “the father, son, and holy spirit” and that intent is assumed. For this reason the CDF has issued an article on Mormons but *not* on JW’s. JW’s do not have a consistant form….it varies all over the place in both time and locale. Given also that a JW’s understanding of the trinity is generally modalist I think intent is sort of a wash too.
And the cult thing is old…most JW’s are nice friendly people that are doing their best to live their religion. They try to teach other people about it because they believe its the most important thing on earth. The problem is that they are wrong and this is what should be addressed. Name calling accomplishes exactly what it did for me for so long, a turning off of reason.
I will note that Paul, in the middle of a group of empty worshipers and real-honest-to-God-cultists in Athens did not insult his audience. Good lesson, yes?
Well, if I turn my head slightly, which is how I see Christ and Mary holding their Breath on some matters, I’m wont to ask: Would said Catholics deliberate about holding themselves back from loving others — and that’s what showing up is — say, in this JW brother-in-law’s funeral service someday?
(And hoping that was my Guardian Angel addressing me above, I agree– but I still hope Augie lives near me!)
When did funerals become the 8th sarament?