Last night I went to Mass at a local Catholic Church other than my usual parish. It’s a good parish, where a friend of mine who is a priest often says Mass. This priest is an excellent homilist, and I was delighted when he came out to do the homily last night.
Unfortunately, I basically heard none of his homily. The priest himself was heroically battling with the sound system, which was misbehaving, but that wasn’t the major problem.
The major problem was that there was a father with a young baby walking up and down in the world-class echo chamber that serves as a vestibule for this parish, and the baby was exercizing the full capacity of its lungs.
It was also crying so loudly that it occasionally threatened to set off rounds of sympathetic crying among other babies in the congregation.
I was sitting in the back, and the baby positively destroyed my ability to hear anything that the priest was saying. I suspect he did so for much of the congregation–perhaps all of it.
Now, I don’t mind a little bit of baby tearfulness in the congregation, because it signifies two good things: (1) there are babies in the congregation and (2) their parents are religiously active. Those are two wonderful things, and I normally smile and remind myself of them when I hear a baby sounding off during church services.
But when a baby is totally out of control, his parents need to do something, because they do have some responsibility not to allow their child to ruin everybody else’s ability to hear.
Taking the wailing infant into a large, tiled echo chamber is not among the most responsible things I can think of to do in such a situation.
The ushers were quite useless in this situation. Indeed, though they were standing right in front of the doors of the nave, they didn’t even close the doors to the echo chamber for several minutes, lest the young father feel excluded, which made it impossible for the congregation (or much of it) to hear the priest’s Christmas Eve homily. Finally, they did close the doors–which are quite thin and so provided next to no relief from the sound.
"Perhaps the person minding the baby would like to know that there is a cry room," I suggested to one of the ushers.
"I think he knows," the usher replied, indicating that he would do nothing to alleviate the situation. "It’s too cold to go outside."
"Oh yeah," I thought to myself. "This is Southern California. It’s in the 50s outside and there is a think blanket of Christmas FOG in the parking lot. I didn’t even have to turn on the heater in my truck on the way over. That baby will really get sick and die if the father takes it outside for twenty seconds so that he can take the face-saving route to the cry room instead of having to walk in front of part of the congregation."
The ushers having determined to be useless and the baby continuing to destroy everyone’s ability to hear the homily, I *almost* took matters into my own hands to kindly and politely and warmly and helpfully inform in the young father that there was a cry room on the premises, but the homily ended (meaning that we were now in a part of the Mass where the congregation could at least roughly follow what was going on by memory) and the child seemed to settle down anyway.
I admired the priest for being able to soldier on with his homily under these conditions, beset as he was on two fronts (the baby in the echo chamber and the sound system’s refusal to behave). I was a little surprised that he didn’t pause the homily to gently invite the use of the cry room to help with one of these, but he soldiered on anyway. (And, yes, I know the reasons he might not want to.)
Yet I was disappointed that I didn’t get to hear the Christmas Eve homily of a particularly good homilist.
But I was able to read one!
This morning I discovered that the folks who do the Vatican web site have (mirabile dictu) put THE POPE’S Christmas Eve homily online–and he’s a good homilist, too!
I was interested to compare what the pope actually said with the highly political reading given to his homily in THIS REPORTAGE (which is better than most you get). The pope’s homily wasn’t just about stopping war and abortion. It was much more focused on Christ and the spiritual meaning of Christmas than the political stuff the press is interested in.
Which is as it should be.
So all seems right in the world: There are good homilies out there for Christmas Eve. There are babies with excellent lung capacity. There are echo chambers for those who need them. And there is a surplus of cry room space for those who wish to use it.
YEE-HAW!
“serves as a vestibule”
Ahem…narthex, Jimmy. Narthex 😉
The problem with these stories is that, there being no objective standard for noisiness, only someone who was at the very same Mass, and probably in the same general part of the nave, can tell whether it was really too much. The rest us read must it with our own perspectvies in play.
Maybe the parent was visiting family for Christmas and didn’t realise the echo chamber effect. If nobody told him you have no reason to assume he knew.
I once had the same thing happen to me — I took a crying baby outside — um. under an open window. She might as well have been sitting in the front pew! I didn’t know better.
Our priest gave a puppet show as a homily on Christmas Eve: “for the children”. I would have looked forward to some crying babies. BTW. He also used the “Midnight Mass” text in place of the “Vigil text” at a 4pm mass.
I used to be bothered by wailing babies and their parents.
Then I read somewhere that whenever Jesus preached, there must have been a lot of wailing babies, and He never complained.
Then I got my own babies and became one of ‘those parents’, and the noise hasn’t bothered me since.
What bothers me though, is whenever I hear wailing babies at Mass, and I turn my head to have a look at the baby and empathize with the parents, and the parents think I’m giving them the look to tell them to make their baby quiet down. So now, I don’t even turn to look.
Sorry to hear you missed the homily — I hate it when that happens.
I spent my first Christmas Eve in the parish that I now call home — and it was wonderful — (I love children but was glad that most of them had gone to the 5pm mass — and it was mostly adults at 8 pm – although there was an infant right in front of us) — but there was incense, reverence, a great homily, and beautiful music – at one point an operatic tenor sang “O Holy Night” in Latin and English and when he came to the words “fall on your knees” — it was beautiful enough to break your heart — the only word I can think of to describe it would be sublime.
Wish you had been there Jimmy.
But, yes we can always count on Pope Benedict for a wonderful homily — sometimes I seem to get more out of reading his homilies than I do out of hearing them though — I suppose there’s just more time to ponder the depth of meaning, and there always is such a depth of meaning.
Merry Christmas.
Archbishop Sheen used to tell about giving a homily with a baby crying. The mother started carryiong the child to the back of the church. Archbishop Sheen said to the mother: “Madam, the child is not bothering me.” Mom said: “No, you’re bothering the child.”
Sorry, Jimmy. I know it was frustrating, but most parents out there who take there kids to mass also don’t get to hear the homilies, often–not because a baby is screaming but because one’s mind is totally divided and distracted trying to keep little ones under control in the pew. I can’t really tell you the last homily that I heard from start to finish and could really think about and ponder (I’m a mother of 3 under age 6.) Since you’re friends with the priest, maybe you can ask him about it sometime.
One of our local networks (NBC) airs the Midnight Mass from St. Peter’s every Christmas Eve starting at 10:30pm CT). I watch it while I wrap presents or bake. My husband is gone singing at Mass, so it’s a nice way for me to enjoy Christmas eve after the kids are in bed.
Merry Christmas!
Then I read somewhere that whenever Jesus preached, there must have been a lot of wailing babies, and He never complained.
He also had the ability to modify the space-time continuum between his mouth and his listeners’ ears so that they could hear everything he said perfectly.
🙂
And if he was feeling lazy, he could just implant his sermons directly into the brains of his audience.
“mother: “Madam, the child is not bothering me.” Mom said: “No, you’re bothering the child.””
What a classic! Thanks for sharing this.
“Whoever has ears ought to hear”. We’re at least assured that hearing was *possible* during Jesus’ sermons!
I sympathize with those parents who are so distracted by their children that they can’t hear the homily either, and I am so glad that they bring their children to church as they should. But really, just because you can’t hear, does that mean the rest of us shouldn’t be able to hear either? That seems a tad illogical to me.
We arrived 20 minutes early in order to find a seat only to find that there is standing-room only for my me, my wife and four kids. The priest tried to get people to scrunch closer together but with our church’s odd circular setup it wouldn’t have made any difference. We did get the added entertainment of having the pastor’s black lab brought up to the altar by the other priest so that the pastor could tell us all that his mutt (I mean best friend) wanted to wish everyone a Merry Christmas. People seemed to love it. Is there a special dispensation to allow dogs on the altar for Christmas?
My youngest (not counting the one under construction) is quite capable of crying loudly enough to be heard through the cry room wall.
I sympathize with people who can’t cope with children crying within earshot. I was one of those myself, during that lull between babies when I had forgotten what lung capacity they have. That’s why I get irritated at people who can’t handle the noise, annd I really shouldn’t. We parents of small children need to pray hard for those poor souls who can only absorb a homily in a silent environment.
We parents of small children need to pray hard for those poor souls who can only absorb a homily in a silent environment.
You can do that, and you can take them to the crying room or get a sitter or take turns going to Mass. Muffled or no cries are much preferred to the alternative, thanks. The focus on the Mass is the Lord, not babies. I’ll pray for parents who seem to have the need to understand that. Please don’t anyone bring up the story about the parents bringing their children to Jesus so they could touch Him–the story is often used to justify letting babies disrupt Mass when that’s not exactly what it is about. Children are innocent, and such are those in the kingdom of Heaven–we get it. Don’t dismiss us as grouches just because we don’t subscribe to the modern Cult of Child Idolatry these days, because that is not fair or correct, and our concerns are valid. Parents can be pretty jerky and selfish when it comes to their kids sometimes–sorry but someone’s gotta say it.
Sometimes it’s not the ushers’ fault. In some parishes they’re only allowed to behave as the parish council permits. My husband actually LEFT THE CHURCH for a time because of this. He was ushering at our (now former) parish for over a year, and he got so fed up with people–parents in particular. We had kids eating pancakes in the pews, teddy grahams and snot rags left in the hymnal pockets… there was this lady who always brought her daughter either in night clothes (4 or 5 yrs old) or in a princess costume every week, and they sat in the front row, which was reserved for the handicapped, so the actual handicapped people had to sit in the cry room (the old people were migraiting there too). My husband spoke to the priest, and his answer was “well, they have their own problems.” They had childrens’ “bulletins” with activities to do and stuff, and this woman on the parish council jumped down my husband’s throat because he wasn’t passing them out before church. He was passing them out AFTER mass, when he passed out the regular bulletins. He said that it would be too distracting for the kids, who were supposed to be learning about the mass, and learning how to pay attention, personal dicipline, you know, good stuff. This woman flipped on him and said that that they bought those things to hand out BEFORE mass, so that the “kids wouldn’t be bored.” Yesterday was the first day my husband has been to mass since then. he wasn’t “allowed” to ask kids to stop playing their game boys, or reading their novels, or ask parents to not let their kids eat messy things in the pews… his hands were utterly tied, and when that happened, he just flipped. in their effort to be so “nice” to all these “special cases,” they just made it miserable for the ushers, and all the “normal” sane folks who were capable of sitting there for 45 minutes without needing to be “entertained” or “fed.”
JJ–I’m not trying to imply that Jimmy or anyone should not be allowed to listen to a homily due to childrens’ noise. I personally remove my children if they begin crying or screaming. All I was saying is that it’s not a perfect world and that we can’t expect to be able to hear and meditate on the homily every Mass we attend. It’s just life.
Karen–I take it you don’t have children? “Cult of Child Idolatry”–pretty inflammatory language, there.
Here’s the deal:
1.) As another poster pointed out this type of post is a bit off because we can’t judge the sound level except through one witness. Therefore it borders on gossip at the best.
2.) Peoples ability to handle sound differs wildly. I’ve been asked to have people turn hearing aids down in my own church because the delay chatter (not the feedback whine) was causing a disturbance (to just one person, I checked). *Especially* amonst those who have had large families or have children versus those who are currently single.
3.) Charity should move us to assume ignorance. The father may have been unaware of both the room and the effect on Jimmy.
When we had little ones at Mass, we always – ALWAYS – took them out if they began to disturb others.
My wife and I took turns, and listened to a lot of homilies over the PA system. We would come back into the sanctuary during Communion.
Is this that tricky? I would have been mortified to think that I was ruining Mass for someone.
At the same time, I try to be as patient as possible with parents of young children.
“Don’t dismiss us as grouches just because we don’t subscribe to the modern Cult of Child Idolatry these days, because that is not fair or correct, and our concerns are valid. Parents can be pretty jerky and selfish when it comes to their kids sometimes.”
So can the childless, Karen, which is the point I was trying to make. It’s a lot easier to pontificate about unruly children when you’re not actively raising them. Conversely, it’s also true that parents of young ‘uns develop a tolerance for noise that the childless don’t have, so sometimes we don’t realize what others’ perception of the noise level is.
I’m really looking forward to thhe day whhen I can get all the way through a Mass like normal people, but in the meantime, I’m trying to balance the desire to participate with other folks’ desire to be free of any awareness of my offspring.
It is unfortunate when someone’s child causes a disruption to a homily or prayer experience. On the other hand, think of the parent. They will be likely to have EVERY mass interrupted for them.
In my experience, to suggest that the parents who try to take their children to Mass are being SELFISH is the height of absurdity. That is one of the greatest sacrifices parents have to make along the way.
If a child gets unruly or upset, of course they should be taken out, and they should never have snacks and drinks in Mass. But many times people are far too sensitive to the normal (mis)behaviors of children.
Josh
Josh, that’s the point I was trying to make, and you made it much more graciously than I did. Thanks.
Why are you guys so convinced that people don’t feel compassion for the hardships of parenting, just because we’d like parents to take some responsibility and avoid disrupting *a Mass*? Is that really too much to ask, that you take umbrage to it? I didn’t mention any other places where children are to be found. Not one.
I’m sorry, but the reality is that people can’t HEAR, and that the Liturgy is IMPORTANT. Let me write that again in case it didn’t sink in: The reality is that people can’t HEAR, and that the Liturgy is IMPORTANT. It’s Mass, not Chuck E. Cheese. Respect for parenting and parents –which fundamentally I do have — is not mutually exclusive to expecting parents to act responsible in the most sacred of environments, where participation is expected.
*You* are the ones with the *options*: to get babysitters, take shifts, or use a crying room. Not us. I understand that these options will personally inconvenience *you*, but consider a greater good, will ya?
We cannot properly participate in the Liturgy, in the prescribed manner of the Church. Mass might be for children too, but you make it *just for children to scream through* by leaving others captive with no options. In your own minds, your inconveniences seem to automatically override everyone else’s desire to worship in the proper way. In vain you will assume others to be unsympathetic, childless, grouchy, or worse–all the while, with a big old plank in your own eyes.
So no, I do not think that child idolatry is too strong of a way to put it, because as I see it, you’ve put your own children and convenience as a parent before the Liturgy at the expense of everyone else’s meaningful participation. If it is unsettling or causes a cringe of guilt, maybe you should go with that.
You cannot tell me that in all the years that Church has been around, when families were so much larger, that it was guaranteed that the Mass would comprise nothing but chaos and cacophony from all of the babies in the pews. I will not believe you. I really do believe this perceived entitlement is a more recent phenomenon.
You reduce it to a situation where people might as well just visit the priest for a Host and then leave. Can you–even find a scrap of remorse at that? Not one little scrap?
I’ll try not to be offended that Joel feels the need for parents to pray for those of us “poor souls who can only absorb a homily in a silent environment.” Absorb? How about *hear*? Joel really doesn’t seem to get that the real problem is not us.
I don’t know what parish you go to Karen, but we belong to a parish with 3000 families and I’ve never seen the type of noise and chaos you refer to. It is possible that you are in a parish with MANY young families and the disruptions are a little greater (in which case you might sit in the front row where you can’t see what’s going on. Or, join the choir where you can sing marty haugen songs a little off key and irritate the offending parents right back.) It is also possible that you are a little hypersensitive.
I had a 1 year old who started fussing once, and my daughter ,who was holding him, instantly began to try to quiet him. about 15 seconds into this event the woman in front turned around began criticizing her for not keeping him quiet. She was clearly enraged that we had brought this MONSTER to mass with us. This was actually a children’s Christmas service, and the service HAD NOT EVEN STARTED YET.
People who are extra sensitive to children at services also might consider going to a really early sunday mass where there will be fewer children.
to suggest that the parents who try to take their children to Mass are being SELFISH is the height of absurdity.
As much as the will to include them sounds like an honorable thing to do, I think it’s selfish and the height of absurdity to bring them if you know they have a tendency to cry and disrupt it for everyone else, with the odd and tacit assumption that at their young age, they are actually participating.
I also think some parents are operating out of selfishness on a level where they aren’t fully recognizing it. In an age where there are even kids and crayons at cocktail parties, and “adult” has become a dirty word, they’ve been conditioned to forget some boundaries, sometimes not entirely through their own faults.
The parent in Jimmy’s article was the kind of scenario I am talking about. I’m not talking about some muffled whines here and there or NEVER bringing kids to Mass. Some people are afraid to get their pedestal shattered, so they jump to the conclusions that I’m arguing against things I’m not arguing against.
But if you’ve got real problem on your hands, then let me ask in all earnestness — Just what favor do you think you are doing a 1-12 month old in keeping a shrieking kid at Mass? “Just to have them there” is a nice *sentiment* if it is in fact *sincere*, but an empty one at best. Will they remember going? Not at that age. Do they know what’s going on? Nope. Are they receiving the sacrament? Nope. Don’t newborns only see (fuzzily) about 12 inches past their faces? They’re bored or uncomfortable, hungry or wet, so then why is it out of the question, to give them the *mercy* of leaving them at home for an hour? Not even the Mass trumps your inconvenience? Geesh, I tell ya.
Hey, If they don’t cry–that’s great, bring them. If they do cry during Mass and/or have a colicky disposition, prepare to go outside, to a cry room, or home, and consider whether this will be an frequent enough event warranting booking a sitter. REMEMBER: This kind of spontaneous wailing doesn’t happen for long in a child’s life, after all. Your small inconveniences aren’t a life sentence for you or the kid.
After scimming through the comments about the children at mass, I remember when I was a child, we dare not act up at mass. We were taught to respect where we were and what was happening. I was one of 11. Another thing that was so prominent as a child was the devotion of both my parents to the Mass. We learn by example. I have two daughters of my own, not that they are perfect, but if they did act up it was out to the vestibul for a talk. Eventually as they got older, and I happen to be talking to a friend in church, they gave me the shhhhush!
Where I go to mass now, there are many large families, I am talking 7, 8, and 9 kids. At times they act up, but the parents always take them outside. It is awesome to see these children respect the mass, and also the priest there always has the children come up after mass for a small gift, like a holy card or medal, blesses each one and then he has them kneel while he brings of Jesus for three hours of exposition. They are constantly exposed to the importance of the Catholic Faith.
“I also think some parents are operating out of selfishness on a level where they aren’t fully recognizing it.”
you know, this is a very funny statement in light of what you are asking these parents to do.
Actually Karen, I thought that attendence at Mass fulfills “active participation. We receive graces merely by being present, even if we do not receive Communion. So yes, the babies and small children are still receiving some benefit, as unlikely as that seems.
Finding a babysitter for a Sunday morning is not an easy task, and many people do not live near family these days. For some, leaving the baby at home may not be an option. There are also people who work on the weekends, so attending Mass at different times can also be out.
I once attended a very packed Mass, and my husband and I sat at the only available seats. Sitting in front of us was a woman with a son about the same age as ours. She took out a bowl of food, and began to feed her son, which agitated mine, since he was hungry too. Still, we managed okay until she sat the half eaten bowl of whatever under the pew at her feet, where my son could see and reach it. When I would not let him enjoy this delightful find, he began to throw a tantrum (both were around a year old). So because this woman decided Mass was lunchtime, *I* had to take my son out of Mass.
Like you Karen, I sometimes really wonder about people. But in general, I think it most charitable to assume that parents are doing the best they can to balance their obligation to attend Mass with preventing their children from destroying everyone else’s Mass attendence.
“Don’t dismiss us as grouches just because we don’t subscribe to the modern Cult of Child Idolatry these days”
Karen, as long as our Chuch preaches the Cult of Fetus Idolatry, you’re just going to have to put up with children in Mass who aren’t always quiet.
Unlike some small protestant congregations, my 3,500 family parish simply doesn’t have the capacity for babysitting for the size of the congregation that shows up for each of our five Sunday Masses.
And our cry-room is more like Gymboree than Church. I’m sorry, but I’m not going to have my two-year-olds brought up to think that the behavior in our cry-room (from parents and children) is what attending Mass is all about. So if you’re in my parish, you’re going to have to put up with my children occasionally crying.
Although I suppose you’d prefer the splendid silent scream of the aborted Idols.
Hippo, wanting to do God’s will and participate in Mass is not selfish. If it were, we’d all be sinning by going to Mass. There’s just no excuse for most people. Parents say it’s all about the children when it’s really about THEM and their inconveniences, and I’m sorry, but it’s not all about the children either, it’s about God. Look how you guys get upset at ONE small request. ONE.
The analogy is actually more akin to Jesus getting angry in the temple, than it is about any other bible story involving children.
Idolater, your silent scream accusation was absolutely uncalled for. I want to hear my homilies and worship, and parents don’t give a flip if I can’t, so that makes me a child murderer? Now I just have a clearer understanding of how blinded you are and how wayward you “idolators” really can stray. You have no idea how pro-life I am; I’m even working on a treatise–in line with already established Church teaching–to further the pro-life cause where many believe that Church teaching needs more elaboration, because some people are interpreting it with too much leeway, which results in the unjustifiable risk of “unintentional” abortions.
Kelly, why didn’t the parent in Jimmy’s story accept the graces and go home? Or outside to get to the crying room? I understand babysitters are hard to get on Sunday mornings but is that the only option? There are Saturday evenings as well, and at least the other options I listed if not more such as parents taking shifts to go to Mass. Don’t worry about an infant “learning” anything about Church from a cry room. They’re too young to learn how to behave in Church anyway. They don’t even know where they are.
After a year or so then you have to watch; you can give them soft toys that don’t go *bang bang* while they play and slowly teach them patience and the importance of being quiet. That is much more acceptable than the wailing. Then if people can be distracted by the more quieter type of fussing, they can just choose not to sit near you and it all works out. At least then they have an option.
I understand that you parents get a lot of flack and dirty looks in some situations where your kids are being disruptive besides Church. I understand that you make many sacrifices and that sometimes it seems to you, like everything is stacked against you. I really do. But aren’t you exaggerating this issue a bit. I’d never go to a mall, a zoo, a Chuck E. Cheese, etc. expecting children to not be children. But Church and infants, I draw my line there. It’s parents who need to re-learn how to behave in Church.
Cathy, your comments were heartening! A reflection of the way things ought to be, where parents are respectful, know boundaries, AND bring the kids when possible. Jimmy’s story was a reflection of things gone awry–if it makes our mostly good-natured Jimmy upset then you’d think folks would listen instead of making excuses and the most terrible assumptions about everybody else who feels the same way when a parent is being thoughtless. I can’t help but wonder what your family and your parish’s families are doing (or thinking) correctly, that some other folks aren’t.
There is one thing that everyone can do to help multi-child families in this situation.
Sometimes, only one parent can attend Mass, and this means that in order to take out a crying baby, the parent would be forced to either A)take the whole brood with them, or B)leave the rest of the kids unsupervised.
If you see a parent struggling with the decision, you might offer to watch the other kids while they take the crying infant out.
“…as long as our Church preaches the Cult of Fetus Idolatry…” “…the splendid silent scream of the aborted Idols…”
Idolater: You would greatly benefit from taking a course in “How To Act Like A Civilized Human Being”.
Sure thing, Tim!
Unless you have children of your own, you would not know that children start learning before they are born. My 18 month old son can make the sign of the cross by himself and he does it whenever he sees his siblings pray before meals. He also kneels and folds his hands when he hears us start the Divine Mercy Chaplet CD and has done so since he was 12 months old. He can say “Jesus” and “Mary” and does so whenever he sees a picture of them. Not the same picture, any picture! We turned on EWTN for the Rosary last night (which we do not do on any regular basis, I am ashamed to admit) but he still said,”Jesus!”. He learned to smile at us when he was a few days old and has been smiling ever since. I can’t even list the other things he can do and has been doing since he was less than a year including walking and talking.
Karen, you seem to have bought the modern medical understandings of children hook, line and sinker. As a mother of four I can tell you that those baby books only scratch the surface. Remember, their bodies are developing, but their souls do not have an infancy! If this happens to you frequently you need to change mass times or parishes. Can’t? Why not? It’s just one simple request!
A baby sitter is not an option for a nursing mother and sometimes the cry room is the place where people let their children run wild and they sit and catch up on the latest gossip and chit-chat. I don’t want my children learning that this is appropriate behavior, oh, but you don’t think they can learn at this age and you must be right!
Jimmy, I am sorry that your homily was impossible to hear. As my mom used to say, “Offer it up!” for the soul of that child and his/her parents. My husband and I used to do split shift Masses frequently when we had 3 under the age of 3 and it was our excellent, pastor, Fr. Weinberger, who encouraged us not to. In today’s day and age, when attacks on the family abound, families should attend Mass together. I try to take my children out where they can’t disturb anyone, but not every church is set up for this and yes, I have missed many parts of many Masses but console myself with the fact that Our Lord understands my intentions. BUT…it is a two-way street you know! I have also shed many tears when unsympathetic grumps like one lady in particular who told me to keep my children under control or remove them because they were disturbing EVERYONE (according to her) and all he was doing was stepping up and down on the kneeler before Mass. My husband apologized to Father afterwards and he assured us that he was not disturbed, no one else was either and if our children ever caused a distraction, we would know it! To quote him,” That’s what my altar boys in the back are for! They will let you know!” If we only had strong leaders like him as pastors instead of weaklings who bow to the authority of the parish council! I always knew that Father was in charge, it was his parish! Anyway, charity and tolerance go both ways.
More than likely, since it was Christmas, this was probably a visiting family who didn’t understand the architecture of the church and didn’t know about the cry room. Maybe he did and if your cry room is like others I have seen, I wouldn’t go their either, but I would have gone outside. Sometimes it is enough of a change that the baby calms down.
I know you must have been disappointed but does it do any good to complain? I would love to rant about all the C & E people who show up for Mass and provide distractions galore, who can barely follow the Mass and take up all the seats, but would it really do any good. Talk to this excellernt homilist instead and encourage him to step up and take charge. If the child was disturbing EVERYONE, why didn’t he do something about it?
Sorry Tim, but I don’t let ANYONE I don’t know supervise my children, not in today’s day and age. Especially not the likes of Karen. There are dispensations for those in the care of small children. A Cistercian priest once told me that we place more requirements on ourselves to attend Mass than the Church does. That is not a bad thing as it keep us attending regularly, but the Church is actually more understanding than we allow.
Last time: There is no point in debating this with people who don’t have children. They think they know all the right answers and how to be the best parents. Funny thing is, I have yet to hear any new parent say,”Yep, it was exactly like I thought it was!” Plenty have said,”I had no idea!” They can’t help it, they don’t know what they don’t know!
Are people complaining about any noise at all leading to the removal of children, or just about parents apparently seeing no need to remove the children? The (orthodox) pastor where we attend has made clear that he will not institute a cry room if the purpose is that others can “hear” the Mass, and also clear that it is not okay for parents to allow children to continue disruptive behavior inside the Mass. As a mother with high standards for my kids in church I do feel he is equally clear on both points. On the other hand, I just read a bulletin notice from another parish which seemed to consign all infants and small children to the cry room from the start.
We are in the “take them out” camp, not the “don’t bring them in” camp. However, we have a very low level of tolerance for noise, so our 16-month-old is usually either asleep or in the foyer for much of Mass. Our 3-year-old stays still and quiet enough that he probably hasn’t had to be removed for close to a year now. I just don’t know whether there are people commenting here (and perhaps at church with us) who would feel unfairly distracted if the toddler makes a couple of babbles or one cranky protest before we take him out, or just if the toddler were experimenting with his echo or the two boys were chattering together and we sat there looking helpless or unconcerned.
cw, I stopped taking you seriously when you mentioned your 18 month old, when that is not even the age group I was referring to, and you went even further astray from there, to the point where you’re talking right past my points.
cw-
Speaking as someone who is raising children, I think you are simply way over the top, here.
Please stop trying to make a complaint about noisy babies into an ATTACK ON THE FAMILY.
I ask again, is it that tricky to take a screaming child out? Why not take the child out in the hallway and “offer it up” as you suggested Jimmy do?
I took missing large parts of the Mass as just part of the price of being a parent. It doesn’t last forever. Eventually we could all stay in Mass like grown-ups.
Clearly, concessions have to be made on both sides. We got dirty looks, too, at what I considered tolerable kid behavior. But at the first sign of a good, throaty crying jag, I would take the baby out.
Look at it logically – If the parent takes the child out into the hallway, that disrupts Mass for 2 people.
If the parent remains with the crying baby, it could very easily disrupt the Mass for DOZENS of people.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Please stop trying to make a complaint about noisy babies into an ATTACK ON THE FAMILY.
I just had to see that again. Thanks ever so much, Tim.
Jimmy’s original complaint:
“The major problem was that there was a father with a young baby walking up and down in the world-class echo chamber that serves as a vestibule for this parish, and the baby was exercizing the full capacity of its lungs.”
Your words Karen:
“The focus on the Mass is the Lord, not babies.”
“the story is often used to justify letting babies disrupt Mass when that’s not exactly what it is about.”
What constitutes a young baby in your mind? Define please before you go flying off the handle.
Tim: I don’t see how I am way over the top. I take my children out and I support a priest who has altar boys standing ready to assist in removing a disturbing child. I wasn’t the one who likened it to an attack on the family, the priest I mentioned thought that frequent separate Masses was not a great way to strengthen the family. It would be nice if you people would actually read what someone writes before commenting back. How annoying. I can’t tell you how many Masses both my husband and I have spent outside, in the car changing a diaper, in a cry room or in the narthex where there are no speakers. I am one of the ones who believes that my duty to take care of my child outweighs my duty to attend Mass fully. Who are you to think that you are entitled to a perfectly peaceful, quiet Mass? I am doing my part but how are you doing yours? Telling parents to relinquish their parental responsibilities to a paid assistant or don’t come? How is that helpful?
Tim – in case you missed it:
In today’s day and age, when attacks on the family abound, families should attend Mass together.
I didn’t say together in the same pew. I was referring to the suggestion that husband and wife go to separate Masses as we used to do often.
I am sorry if you misunderstood.
cw, settle down.
cw, what part about “screaming infant” don’t you understand? Why are you taking this as an attack against families? Tim put it much better than I did, and all of your premises assume that this is an attack on families. I just can’t take you seriously.
Your complete inablility to grasp my point makes me not take you seriously. I don’t understand how anyone who uses the phrase “Cult of Child Idolatry” can call themselves pro-life. It means so much more than simply allowing every child to be born. If your problem is with screaming infants, then at what age would you say that it is safe to bring a child to church without their being a danger of noise, 1 year, 2 years, 5 years? A two year old is more likely to pitch an unconsolable fit than an infant. Infants have only a few simple needs that can be met relatively easily, not so for a toddler.
Okay, cw, it is possible I misunderstood your comment, but it did sound like you were saying that the current complaints were like another attack on the family.
My wife and I often went to separate Masses, too, and I don’t really see the problem with that.
Attending Mass as a complete family is certainly a good thing, but it is not required. We found those Masses we attended individually to be a very welcome break from child-rearing duties, as well as spiritually nourishing.
If you are already taking your kids out when they get rowdy, I don’t think we are really so far apart on the issue.
Jimmy’s original post obviously dealt with an unusually distracting situation, or he wouldn’t have bothered posting on it. I’m fairly certain he would not insist on a “perfectly peaceful, quiet Mass”.
If I were to insist on that, I would also have to ask adults please not to chat during the Mass. I find this more disturbing than crying babies, simply because adults should know better.
Our new, young priest has repeatedly made a point of asking people to be silent while leaving the sanctuary, and to save their friendly chatter for the narthex. This has been roundly ignored, which makes me crazy!
Your complete inablility to grasp my point makes me not take you seriously. I don’t understand how anyone who uses the phrase “Cult of Child Idolatry” can call themselves pro-life.
Then we’re at least on even grounds, I guess. You talked past every point I made to the point where I felt I’d have to answer every point of yours to correct you, but I just don’t feel like doing that. I could, but it’d be a LONG post. I leave it to you to go back and compare what you wrote with what I wrote.
As far as this comment: I don’t understand how anyone who uses the phrase “Cult of Child Idolatry” can call themselves pro-life. then I guess you have a lot to learn, don’t you. I’m not only pro-life, but I’m actively trying to get some clarification in our doctrine, so that people stop using a loophole in order to risk aborting children. Good Catholics are using this loophole, and “good” parents such as yourselves are using it. I feel very strongly about the sanctity of life at all ages, and I point this out only to bring attention to the fact that you have no idea what is in a person’s heart before you accusing them of “flying off the handle” and being “anti-family”.
I do not take you seriously. I don’t think you’re capable of debate, whether it’s from a deficiency in intellect, comprehension or a strong will to ignore the obvious. But I wish you peace, will discuss this with my confessor and I’m done with this thread, and I’ll shake the dust from my feet.
You don’t want to read and contemplate, and you don’t want to hear about anything but your own sentimentality, and we do not argue morality from misguided sentimentality. God help us all, if being a parent does that to most people.
“I’m even working on a treatise”
Well then, Karen, I guess that settles that. I didn’t realize we were crapping in such high cotton with you.
You’ve essentially stated that children below a certain age should not be brought to Mass because they don’t get anything out of it. You insist upon parents of children that age to either hire a babysitter, use the cry-room (which in many parishes is the equivalent of not even attending Mass) or simply miss Mass.
Therefore, it is clear that you don’t understand the nature of the Mass and efficacy of Graces conferred thereby.
You don’t understand childhood development and the fact that children are capable of learning that it’s more fun to stay home on Sunday morning and play at a much earlier age than the age at which they can learn the concept of having to/being able to be quiet in certain settings.
So yes, in a sense I think you are a baby-killer. You certainly have no problem stiffling if not killing the spiritual development of children by depriving them of access to the Graces conferred at Mass.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to engage in one of our favorite Cult rituals, you know, the one involving the diapers and the dooty. I love being so selfish.
You’ve essentially stated that children below a certain age should not be brought to Mass because they don’t get anything out of it. I didn’t say that! Do you guys need contacts or what??
Okay, we’re at a point where the average Joe has some trouble seeing the nuances. It’s like convincing cafeteria Catholics about why the pope can’t condone condoms. They just don’t want to hear anything, don’t want to *think*. Look at all this. Unbelievable. If you would read what I said, and understand it, you wouldn’t jump to these blinding conclusions. Don’t mind me, I know you’re just reading this as fast as you can, precisely so that you can pounce on the best opportunity to attack me, instead of LISTENING.
No we are not far apart on this issue. I have read and re-read my original post and the only time I mentioned any attack on the family was the comment from our pastor which had nothing to do with crying children, just a statement of fact about our society. My biggest gripe is with the people like Karen who know nothing of children personally but still have these rules about what parents should and shouldn’t do. I believe she was a poster on Amy’s blog who griped about nursing moms and people who bring their children to expensive restaurants. I get many compliments on my children’s behavior and how respectful they are at Mass, both Sunday and daily! Women come up to us after Mass on Friday’s and say,”I can’t believe you are here every Friday, I don’t know how you do it. They are so good!” I want to ask them,”Do you think they popped out like this?” It takes time, training and discipline. It takes being with them and knowing them better than anyone else. If you like the results, don’t gripe about my method.
Also try to understand that for some people, separate Masses isn’t an option. My sister-in-law does not drive and had three children inside of three years. She has to go with her husband or not at all. Some of us can’t afford a baby-sitter nor do we have anyone in the area that we would trust or it goes against our philosophies on parenting. There might be a work schedule that only allows for one Mass time as an option. Again, a child who is nursing cannot be left for even an hour since you can’t predict when they will want to eat just like you can’t predict when they will cry and any mother who has ever nursed a child knows that sometimes they need mom just for comfort or to go to sleep, not just sustenance. I am definately in the “take them out” camp but I think others who claim to be “pro-life” are in the “keep them in their place” camp and that place is far away from them. Playgrounds and Chuck E. Cheese are fine because they can choose to avoid those places. Looking back on it, don’t you think that some other’s people’s posts were attacks on parents and children?
The 12:09:00 post was directed at Tim and no one else. I didn’t want anyone else to misunderstand and think I was addressing them with my lack of intellect, determination or strong will. I also don’t want to be accused of needing to have the last word even if I didn’t claim to shake the dust from my feet.
“Kelly, why didn’t the parent in Jimmy’s story accept the graces and go home? Or outside to get to the crying room? I understand babysitters are hard to get on Sunday mornings but is that the only option?”
Well, if we are talking about the example that Jimmy gave, that WAS a Saturday evening Mass, on Christmas Eve. The man DID take his child out, he just didn’t take him to the best location. I think he was probably, like Jimmy, not a regular at that church and unfamiliar with where everything was.
At the end of a long day when you’ve been traveling, the kids have missed their naps, you’ve been helping with a big meal and you’re really exhausted but Grandma insists that EVERYONE go to this Mass because that’s what we always do, then you aren’t always thinking very clearly about how to do with this screaming child in your hands.
No, a babysitter isn’t the only option, but as I mentioned previously, you can’t always assume that the parents have multiple options for Mass. Some people work on weekends, so they may only be able to attend one Mass. The parish where I grew up actually only offered one Mass a weekend, and not only had no cry room or extra rooms at all, but no air-conditioning so when you took your child outside in the summer, we could hear everything through the windows.
Although you said that parents have all the options, those who do not have children and are disrupted also have options. As long as you aren’t attending the last Mass on Sunday, you can sit through another one. Some parishes have a headphone system for the hearing impaired. If you r parish has a set that is free you could use that to more easily drown out the noise. Sitting right up front helps, too.
Idolater,
I wasn’t saying that during a certain age kids should not be brought to Mass. That’s not the same thing as what I did say, which is that if a screaming kid is ruining the Liturgy, the parents should act responsibly. I can’t believe how crazy this got when it is pure common sense. All it did was make me more afraid of everything I’ve been hearing about our past couple of generations. Nobody on the “My child should be allowed to scream his lungs out at Mass!!!!!” crowd has offered anything real in the way of a justification, and you’re all going to enormous lengths to demonize people with good intentions and a good understanding of family values. I just don’t get it.
Don’t bother explaining though– I don’t want to come back here and read any more of this craziness. If someone from the “My kids have a right to ruin everybody’s Mass!” crowd had anything useful to say, they’d have said it by now. If people were reading what I wrote, they wouldn’t be arguing or accusing me of things of which I am not guilty. Tim J. and Cathy and perhaps a couple of others made sense. The rest of you are not worth getting angry over.
Why is it when someone is supposedly misunderstood it is always the fault of the one doing the listening? Lots of things go both ways for those of us who don’t “draw the line”.
Idolator wrote:
“You’ve essentially stated that children below a certain age should not be brought to Mass because they don’t get anything out of it.”
Karen replies:
“I didn’t say that! Do you guys need contacts or what??”
But on 12/27 Karen wrote:
“But if you’ve got real problem on your hands, then let me ask in all earnestness — Just what favor do you think you are doing a 1-12 month old in keeping a shrieking kid at Mass? “Just to have them there” is a nice *sentiment* if it is in fact *sincere*, but an empty one at best. Will they remember going? Not at that age. Do they know what’s going on? Nope. Are they receiving the sacrament? Nope.”
I think that states you feel that children below a year old should not be brought to Mass because they get nothing out of it.
Anonymous, how many times do I have to repeat myself? I answered to the Child Idolator: “I wasn’t saying that during a certain age kids should not be brought to Mass. That’s not the same thing as what I did say, which is that if a screaming kid is ruining the Liturgy, the parents should act responsibly.”
In several other posts, I said to bring them. But when they are disrupting Mass, there are certain priorities. Maybe people just don’t have time to read the entire thread. But if so, then why comment?
I am amused by this pile up you parents are doing. Like you think that in numbers, you can overcome and overpower the truth by pounding me down. This is quite a spectacle.
I encourage you to go back and read what I really wrote, instead of reading comments like those of “cw” and getting all up in arms because of her arguments are a catharsis for your general frustrations against those who personally made life hard for her. I am not your enemy; you are rather, using me unjustly as a sounding board for those who are truly against parents, for those who truly don’t like children, and for those who are truly anti-life.
Quite a spectacle of inanity worthy of a South Park episode. I’m going to offer this up–maybe for you guys.
Someone do us all a mercy and close the comments.
I think what Karen was saying was that infants NEED not be brought to Mass (which is true), not that they SHOULD not be brought to Mass.
I only hope we don’t have too many people reading this thread who may have been on the fence about becoming Catholic.
A great deal of knee-jerk defensiveness all around. Everyone seems to be arguing extremes.
People who want a quiet Mass are not unsympathetic prigs. The Mass should be quiet enough to hear what is going on.
Parents who want a degree of understanding are not flippantly rude and self-righteous. It is understood that children should be welcome at the Great Prayer of the Church.
I refuse to believe that, on the one hand, we have a parent who does not care how many people are bothered by their screaming child, and on the other hand we have a person who believes that children should not be brought to Mass.
There is so much straw in the air, (from the beating of these straw men) that it is getting hard to breathe.
I do sense in your posts, cw, that you are scandalized that anyone would dare to criticize in print a parent who brought their child to Mass.
Karen, you asked people to go back and read what you wrote. Here are some examples:
“You can do that, and you can take them to the crying room or get a sitter or take turns going to Mass. Muffled or no cries are much preferred to the alternative, thanks. The focus on the Mass is the Lord, not babies. I’ll pray for parents who seem to have the need to understand that.”
“Don’t dismiss us as grouches just because we don’t subscribe to the modern Cult of Child Idolatry these days, because that is not fair or correct, and our concerns are valid. Parents can be pretty jerky and selfish when it comes to their kids sometimes–sorry but someone’s gotta say it.”
“I’m sorry, but the reality is that people can’t HEAR, and that the Liturgy is IMPORTANT. Let me write that again in case it didn’t sink in: The reality is that people can’t HEAR, and that the Liturgy is IMPORTANT. It’s Mass, not Chuck E. Cheese. Respect for parenting and parents –which fundamentally I do have — is not mutually exclusive to expecting parents to act responsible in the most sacred of environments, where participation is expected.
*You* are the ones with the *options*: to get babysitters, take shifts, or use a crying room. Not us. I understand that these options will personally inconvenience *you*, but consider a greater good, will ya?”
“So no, I do not think that child idolatry is too strong of a way to put it, because as I see it, you’ve put your own children and convenience as a parent before the Liturgy at the expense of everyone else’s meaningful participation. If it is unsettling or causes a cringe of guilt, maybe you should go with that.
You cannot tell me that in all the years that Church has been around, when families were so much larger, that it was guaranteed that the Mass would comprise nothing but chaos and cacophony from all of the babies in the pews.”
“Hey, If they don’t cry–that’s great, bring them. If they do cry during Mass and/or have a colicky disposition, prepare to go outside, to a cry room, or home, and consider whether this will be an frequent enough event warranting booking a sitter.”
“I understand that you parents get a lot of flack and dirty looks in some situations where your kids are being disruptive besides Church. I understand that you make many sacrifices and that sometimes it seems to you, like everything is stacked against you. I really do. But aren’t you exaggerating this issue a bit. I’d never go to a mall, a zoo, a Chuck E. Cheese, etc. expecting children to not be children. But Church and infants, I draw my line there. It’s parents who need to re-learn how to behave in Church.”
“You don’t want to read and contemplate, and you don’t want to hear about anything but your own sentimentality, and we do not argue morality from misguided sentimentality. God help us all, if being a parent does that to most people.”
“If someone from the “My kids have a right to ruin everybody’s Mass!” crowd had anything useful to say, they’d have said it by now.”
“In several other posts, I said to bring them. But when they are disrupting Mass, there are certain priorities. Maybe people just don’t have time to read the entire thread. But if so, then why comment?
I am amused by this pile up you parents are doing. Like you think that in numbers, you can overcome and overpower the truth by pounding me down. This is quite a spectacle.”
“Someone do us all a mercy and close the comments.”
“I do sense in your posts, cw, that you are scandalized that anyone would dare to criticize in print a parent who brought their child to Mass.”
Your senses are off today. Personally Tim, I think you are being unfair. Nowhere did I intimate that I was scandalized. I think you are putting me in a box that I did nothing to earn. I think it is sad that in our world today it is fellow Catholics who are saying, “Children don’t belong at Mass until they can act like adults.” What about handicapped people who can’t control their vocal chords? What about the days of no electricity when the windows would have been opened and the only things to carry the homily to the back of the cathedral was Father’s maybe good, maybe not-so-good lungs? How hard was it for those people to hear the homily? I know this is stretching the thread so don’t think I am ignorant of your point. Throughout all of my posts I have maintained that I am a mother who tries to respect the rights of others in the church, where are the childless people who try to respect the rights of my children to be there? They are Catholics too you know! Do they get anything out of it? Only God knows.
Karen, I do have to say that your general tone in this thread strikes me as cranky and uncharitable. You don’t seem to have really tried to understand what the parents here are saying, and repeated insults and attacks on the intellects of those you’re arguing against don’t help anything. You might have some good points, but the way you’ve put them is highly unlikely to convince anyone. Could it be that phrases like “the Cult of Child Idolatry” put parents on the defensive?
For the record, I’m seventeen, so you can’t exactly call me a reactionary parent….
Sean, point taken. Tim, you hit it on the nail, where I am right and where I might be wrong. I am now asking you as a person I know to be very sensible on this blog, and as a blogger I’ve come to know and like and respect, to please close the comments here. I don’t know why it keeps going on despite all of this straw flying around. People are starting to get careless in their reading and responding. There is no longer a good reason the straw should fly around; not for the sake of experiment, amusement, or for a “free speech” sounding board. These aren’t the reasons that Catholics keep blogs. I’m starting to get genuinely concerned about souls here.
What we have here is a pileup of people who don’t want to sit and contemplate any other position but their own, but assume the worst in everybody and vent at any target they deem most suitable. And by this point, allowing anybody to be tempted further by this thread is futile and grave and even cruel; in the cases of some it is probably cruel to let it stay open because of the enormous temptation to read the comments in a cursory manner and then vent at an undeserving target. People were halfway making sense until about 50% of the way down, and it then deteriorated, probably because people just quit reading carefully.
That’s serious stuff. I’m appealing to your sensibilities not as a blogger, not as a person with secular standards of “fairness”, but as a Catholic who I assume has some understanding of spirituality and of the serious risks being taken here, and who perhaps hassome command of moral theology and the seriousness of what is occurring in this discussion.
(paraphrase) “You will be held accountable for every word”.
That’s very easy to forget on the Internet, isn’t it. And I think a lot of people are being quite careless and presumptuous here tonight. This is the problem when apologetics becomes too preoccupied with words and forgets spirituality.
Too many people do not want to listen. Thanks to those who did, including the sensible parents, for whom I am grateful.
Karen, you said:
“And I think a lot of people are being quite careless and presumptuous here tonight. This is the problem when apologetics becomes too preoccupied with words and forgets spirituality.
Too many people do not want to listen. Thanks to those who did, including the sensible parents, for whom I am grateful.”
Questions:
1. Did you read through the excerpts of your own posts which I posted above? Do you not see how incendiary some of your language is, especially when you characterize parents who say they take their children to Mass, BUT REMOVE THEM WHEN THEY ARE CRYING, as “the “My kids have a right to ruin everybody’s Mass!” crowd”?
2. Since when is the decision whether or not to take minor children to Mass a matter for apologetics, or “morality” as you said earlier? Are parents who take to church an infant who may conceivably scream during Mass and have to be removed to the best of the parents’ ability actually guilty of committing a sin in your view? This is a serious question; you say above that such parents are guilty of ‘selfishness’ and of putting their own convenience ahead of everyone else’s ability to participate meaningfully in the Mass. Selfishness, of course, is a sin, and you’ve used the words “morality” and “apologetics (?)” to characterize this debate, so I have to wonder if you view a parent’s decision to take a potentially fretful baby to Mass as a sin.
3. You have asked that this thread be closed, and are appealing to Tim in these words:
“…not as a person with secular standards of “fairness”, but as a Catholic who I assume has some understanding of spirituality and of the serious risks being taken here, and who perhaps hassome command of moral theology and the seriousness of what is occurring in this discussion.” But what is occurring in this discussion that makes it imperative that the thread be closed? I see this as an honest exchange between people who don’t believe children under a year old should generally be brought to Mass, and people who disagree. Now, if you do think that it is at least possible that parents are acting selfishly, and therefore sinfully, in bringing infants to Mass, why wouldn’t you want this discussion to continue? If parents are erring in this way, isn’t it the duty of the wider Christian community to inform them of the fact, using such words of charity, understanding, cheerfulness and patience as you have employed in your many iterations of your points above?
Karen,
I believe that the the substance of the argument that you attempted to foment among the members of this blog has long passed, but I could not let this thread go without addressing your behaviour as it relates to the members of this blog. By your insults, you have given voice to an anger that is palpable to even a casual reader of these posts. Your pride has expressed itself in calumnious attacks against many good Catholic parents, people who are fighting the devil himself for the souls of their children. An attack from “within the ranks” is a terrible blow to these parents, and you should be taken to task for your comments. If my tone is admonishing, it is meant to be.
“I’m starting to get genuinely concerned about souls here.”
Err…not to add to the conflagration, but do you really need to be this patronizing?
Err…I realized a second too late that “condescending” would be a better word. Consider them both used in my previous post.
Actually, I’d agree that comments should be closed–not because the one side has gotten too shrill, but because *both* sides (Karen included) have gone too far beyond the bounds of polite debate. Karen, I don’t mean to be rude, but if you’ll read your previous posts, there’s plenty of anger and mud being flung in them. I can see that this is a subject you feel passionately about, but…I think you just might have gotten somewhat carried away.
Sorry, folks, but this was not my post to begin with, so I can’t close the combox.
cw, you were beginning to take a conciliatory tone, there, but then said-
“I think it is sad that in our world today it is fellow Catholics who are saying, “Children don’t belong at Mass until they can act like adults.”.
To be fair, I don’t think anyone has said that. You are engaging in hyperbole (not that others haven’t!), which only serves to kick the rhetoric up YET ANOTHER notch.
Why don’t we all just voluntarily lay this thread to rest?
I really doubt that this level of hostility would be in evidence if we were all talking in a room somewhere.
Tim, in defense of cw, here are some of the comments posted by Karen which might lead a reasonable person to conclude that she expects parents to keep their children at home during any part of their childhood during which they pose the threat of becoming disruptive:
“Hey, If they don’t cry–that’s great, bring them. If they do cry during Mass and/or have a colicky disposition, prepare to go outside, to a cry room, or home, and consider whether this will be an frequent enough event warranting booking a sitter.”
“In several other posts, I said to bring them. But when they are disrupting Mass, there are certain priorities.”
“I’d never go to a mall, a zoo, a Chuck E. Cheese, etc. expecting children to not be children. But Church and infants, I draw my line there. It’s parents who need to re-learn how to behave in Church.”
“If someone from the “My kids have a right to ruin everybody’s Mass!” crowd had anything useful to say, they’d have said it by now.”
Why do such words as these get a pass, while cw and others are excoriated for defending the practice of bringing infants to Mass? Is the consensus here that Karen is in fact in the right, and parents are guilty of selfishness for not a)hiring a babysitter, b)attending seperate Masses, c)using a crying room when one is actually available, or d)just staying home until Junior is old enough to be civilized enough to behave with predictibility and good decorum throughout Mass (which translates as “old enough to act like adults”)?
Sorry Tim, but that was the “sense” that I got. You agree that others have engaged in hyberbole, but yet you have not chastized them, hence my unfair label. You conceded that maybe you misunderstood me so I will concede that maybe I have misunderstood others. Late comers can decide for themselves.
I do wonder how our forefathers heard Mass in their cathedrals when microphones weren’t invented yet?
cw-
Earlier, I said this:
“A great deal of knee-jerk defensiveness all around. Everyone seems to be arguing extremes.
People who want a quiet Mass are not unsympathetic prigs. The Mass should be quiet enough to hear what is going on.
Parents who want a degree of understanding are not flippantly rude and self-righteous. It is understood that children should be welcome at the Great Prayer of the Church.
I refuse to believe that, on the one hand, we have a parent who does not care how many people are bothered by their screaming child, and on the other hand we have a person who believes that children should not be brought to Mass.”
I think I pointed out the extreme views on both ends with fairness.
I understand that YOU DO care about others at the Mass.
I also understand that Karen IS NOT saying that babies should not be brought to Mass.
Karen evidently understood it that way, when she said:
“Tim, you hit it on the nail, where I am right and where I might be wrong…”
To Anonymous-
I don’t believe I excoriated anybody.
If I DO decide to excoriate anyone (God forbid) they will know they have been excoriated.
Tim J,
Assuming that several others do not know what the word means exactly:
From dictionary.com:
1. To tear or wear off the skin of; abrade.
2. To censure strongly; denounce: an editorial that excoriated the administration for its inaction.
I think you had meaning #2 in mind, but you did stress that (God forbid) they would know if they’ve been excoriated, so did you have meaning #1 in mind?
😉 😉
Karen said: the Liturgy is IMPORTANT.
Yes, it is, even for children.
We parents do not take our children to Mass because it is noble, we do it because we are morally and canonically OBLIGED to do so. It is our duty as the parents of baptized children. We are charged with bringing them up in the faith; you cannot do that if you don’t take them to Mass.
Another point: every kid I know whose parents did not take to Mass, does not go to Mass as an adult. If children are left home, they do not grow into faithful Catholic adults. They need the Mass.
Karen, did your parents take you to Mass?
PS. I have two small boys, they behave wonderfully and rarely need to be taken to the back. Why? We have taken them to Mass since shortly after birth, and taught them proper comportment.
PS.2 I disagree about snacks for children too young to receive the Eucharist, or who are not in preparation for it. Small children can often act up out of hunger and thirst. Then again, I always clean up after them, and never allow them to be loud and distracting with their food. Oh, and I nurse my babies right in the pew, covered with a blankie. I suppose someone will have a problem with that too.
There is no moral or canonical obligation to take children under the age of reason to Mass. It is a good thing to do, but it is not an obligation.
I am the mother of 4 children, now ages 10, 9, 6 and 4. My husband and I spent a few years splitting up for Mass (when a new infant was introduced to the family) and though we tried to always attend as a family, it wasn’t always possible. However, attending Mass from a young age DOES help children learn. I have to disagree about the use of snacks, though. Kids can go for one hour without being plied with goldfish crackers and juice boxes (of course, infants are an exception but we have always left the church proper to nurse or give a bottle). Similarly they don’t need coloring books, toys, matchbox cars and polly pockets to make it through Mass either. Plus, think how distracting those things are to other children. I’m with Jimmy, here. Common courtesy seems to be a thing of the past even in our churches. As the mom in “The Incredibles” screams to her husband “It’ NOT ABOUT YOU!” Karen’s right. Our focus should be on the Lord during the Mass. Even though those young babies and toddlers are adorable, sometimes they have to be removed when causing a large disturbance. When I am forced to leave because of the behavior of my child, I am reminded about the grace I receive in making the effort. I don’t resent having to leave and I give parents with young children a lot of credit for attending Mass and leaving Mass when necessary.
Well, maybe it’s too late to comment on this thread, but it was such an interesting read… I can’t resist. Here is a real life situation (thankfully, past for me): when my husband was a resident, he often had to work on Sundays, or even Saturday overnight and well into Sunday. I had four children, two of whom had reached the age of reason, a toddler, and an infant. I had no family nearby and no extra money. Every dime we could spare went to pay tuition at the Catholic school. If I did not bring the baby to Mass, nobody could go. If he acted up, I could not leave my other small children to take him to the back of the church. Karen, what would you have had me do? I did my best, nursing, distracting, and pacifying as best I could. I sat near the back of the church when possible (back pews tended to fill up first!). I thought often of my mother-in-law’s friend who was widowed when her youngest was an infant. Most of the time it worked. Now my children are older, my husband is available to go with us, life is easier and more pleasant at Mass. My sympathy was always for those who had to endure on the occasions when my baby acted up; but, still, what else I could have done escapes me.
Jesus said, “they will know you are My followers by your love for one another.”
What would this love for one another look like?
St. Paul gives a hint when he says, “outdo one another in generosity.”
I’m picturing parents of babies who are gearing up to do the 70-decibel thing scrambling to take the little one out of hearing range. I’m also picturing those around these little ones being kind, and patient, and welcoming and showing an interest. I’m even picturing an overly self-conscious parent, making as if the leave the church when her baby merely hiccups, receiving a pat on the hand from the lady in the pew beside her and a whispered, “you stay right where you are, dear. He’s not disturbing anybody.”
Marion, you extremist! (Just kidding!)