A reader writes:
Hello Jimmy
I heard this for the first time last night and do not know the answer.
I was told that the Catholic Church teaches that John the Baptist was Born without original sin, is this the teaching of the church if so can you please explain why.
This is not something that the Catholic Church teaches, but it is what may be called a pious and probable belief among Catholics.
The reason is that in Luke 1:13-15, when an angel prophecies the birth of John the Baptist, he says:
Do not be afraid, Zechari’ah, for your
prayer is heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you
shall call his name John.
And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth;
for he will be great before the Lord,and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb.
It is commonly understood that the Holy Spirit does not fill those who are still in a state of original sin. As Catholics use the term, "original sin" refers to the privation of the sanctifying grace which unites us with God. A soul filled with the Holy Spirit seems unquestionably to be united with God and thus not deprived of sanctifying grace. Hence, it has not original sin as the term is commonly used among Catholics, just as every person who has been baptized or otherwise justified has not original sin as Catholics use the term.
(N.B., Protestants have a different and more expansive definition of the term "original sin," which includes the corrupt nature we inherit from Adam and which remains with us after we are justified. Consequently, it would sound very improbable to them that any person in this life does not have original sin, but this is because of the way the term is used in their circles, not because of a substantive theological difference.)
(N.B.B., If it is granted that John the Baptist was freed from original sin before birth, it does not follow that he was immaculate, as was the Blessed Virgin Mary. This is firstly because he may have been freed of original sin after his conception and before birth, whereas Mary was preserved from her conception from contracting original sin. And it secondly is because Mary was not only free of original sin, as is posited in the case of John the Baptist, but also utterly free of the stain of original sin, which includes more than just the deprivation of sanctifying grace. It also includes, for example, the later tendency to sin–concupiscience–to which we are subject in this life.)
“The Church observes the day of John [the Baptist’s] birth as a holy day: none of the fathers is thus solemnly commemorated. We celebrate John’s birth as we celebrate Christ’s. I cannot let this feast pass without a sermon…” (St Augustine, Sermon 293).
When we realise that John was filled with the Holy Spirit in his mother’s womb (which, in addition to the scripture Jimmy cites, is affirmed in the profession of faith Pope Innocent III prescribed for the Waldensians), the devotion with which the Church celebrates his birth begins to make sense.
[And I just love Augustine’s comment that this feast can’t pass without a sermon!]
Jimmy,
N.B. means nota bene, what does N.B.B. stand for…?
pax,
scott
Nota Bene Bene.
(I made it up.)
Kurt, I’m curious about Pope Innocent’s work, and what was the nature of the contact and communication with the Waldensians?
Circuit Rider,
In the 1208 document Eius Exemplo, Pope Innocent III prescribed a special profession of faith to be made by Waldensians who wanted to be reconciled with the Church. The Latin text of the profession (with German translation) can be found here.
On John the Baptist, the document echoes the words of the Angel Gabriel by affirming that John was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother’s womb (in utero matris suae Spiritu Sancto repletum).
I have always heard that he was freed from o. sin at the Visitation when he lept in his mother’s womb. I love this Catholic understanding of the great saint.
Can you explain where in the Bible it states that Mary was born without original sin? Is this a catholic belief?
When did the disciples lose original sin…at pentecost? with the discent of the Holy Spirit?
Can you explain where in the Bible it states that Mary was born without original sin?
Gabriel addresses her as “full of grace.” This is not the same word in the Greek as other references that are translated “full of grace.” It means something like “perfectly full of grace.”
Now, grace removes from us the stain of original stain. Anyone who possessed grace perfectly would be free from it perfectly, which would be your entire life.
Jimmy,
That short article was really helpful to me, thanks. 🙂
But if you could please clear up what you mean by “This is not something that the Catholic Church teaches, but it is what may be called a pious and probable belief among Catholics”. Do you mean to imply that the Church does NOT hold this teaching as a doctrine but only as a BELIEF or that the Church doesn’t teach this at all? I was reading at the Q/A boards at EWTN.com and in a question posted about this topic, Father Echert answered it that regarding St. John the Baptist’s freeing from original sin in the womb it is a “teaching of the Church”.
So understanding well that this is not a dogma, is it regardless a belief the Church teaches or, as you said, just a pious belief among Catholics?
The notion that John would be freed from original sin is quite curious. For the case of Sampson comes to mind as well: Jdgs13:7-21 — where God consecrates Samson from the womb, by the office of an angel. Would Sampson, too, be more than consecrated in the OT sense — and yet, like John, unable to enter heaven even when others could? Mat11:11
What is the significance of the mark in Justification/Santification which always go together (if I read Trent correctly). I understood the deprivation of sanctifying grace as the cause of not being able to enter heaven. e.g. a friend of God could not go to hell — so the mark, I understood to be the effect of that which is properly called “sanctifying” grace. Where have I missed something?
i would love to be updated on anything ealse you have to say about the bible my church is now having a bible study meet on the life an the ministries of jesus an john the baptist we are still on jesus but i just wanted to know something about john the baptist before we got into the studying thank you so very much an i will be back to visit your sight again.
Iola, while studying John the Baptist and the Gospels I found the following books to be very helpful. Check out the Subject Index of each book for John the Baptist, Jesus’s Ministry etc…
Raymond Brown, The Birth of the Messiah, updated edition, Anchor Bible Ref. Library/Doubleday,1993.
Raymond Brown, An Introduction to the New Testament, Anchor Bible Ref. Library/Doubleday, 1997.
John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Hstorical Jesus, vols. I, II, III,
Anchor Bible Ref. Library/Doubleday, vol I 1991, vol. II 1994, vol III 2001.
You might be able to get these from your local library or through an inter-library loan.
Hope this is helpful.
While both authors are Roman Catholic scholars (Brown is deceased, not sure about Meier) but not being RC myself I am not certain how they stand in light of the Church’s teachings – can someone help out of this?
I’d really like to know what people think of Brown and Meier’s works and what other authors and books you would recommend to a “searcher” like me.
Has anyone read Paula Fredrikson’s Jesus of Nazareth, Knopf, 1999, or any of her other works? Just got this books a few weeks ago and have yet to start it. Opinions, comments??? Please share your knowledge with those of us on the path!
This is a great site! Truly appreciate all help, comments, and suggestions.
“While both authors are Roman Catholic scholars (Brown is deceased, not sure about Meier) but not being RC myself I am not certain how they stand in light of the Church’s teachings – can someone help out of this?
I’d really like to know what people think of Brown and Meier’s works and what other authors and books you would recommend to a “searcher” like me.”
I only read one book of Brown’s, and it was very shaky as far as Catholic teaching goes, if I recall.
I don’t know about Meier, but if he is “Rethinking the Historical Jesus” he does NOT have my confidence.
I believe both are proponents of “higher criticism” to the exclusion of almost all else, but someone with more knowledge might be able to confirm this with more confidence.
Brown’s work is excellent as far as scholarship goes. That is, he will provide most if not all of the evidence on a given point. He often draws from that evidence conclusions that are not necessarily warranted, in my opinion. I am not personally aware of anything I’ve read in his books that actually contradicts authoritative Church teaching, but it would not necessarily surprise me to find it occasionally. I, for one, find myself having to be very generous with Fr. Brown when reading his work, but if you can separate out the scholarship from the rest, it can be useful.
I would not recommend his work for anyone who is not solid in their faith, or for anyone who is looking to find out what the Church has to say.
” I am not personally aware of anything I’ve read in his books that actually contradicts authoritative Church teaching, but it would not necessarily surprise me to find it occasionally.”
That was my impression, Brother Cadfael. Brown says a lot, but for all that, he neither confirms or denies much, either.
He seemed to talk AROUND a lot of points, but never arrived anywhere. But this is just dim recollection on my part.
Kind of reminiscent of – well – your average homily.
Or the footnotes to the NAB!
” I am not personally aware of anything I’ve read in his books that actually contradicts authoritative Church teaching, but it would not necessarily surprise me to find it occasionally.”
That was my impression, Brother Cadfael. Brown says a lot, but for all that, he neither confirms or denies much, either.
He seemed to talk AROUND a lot of points, but never arrived anywhere. But this is just dim recollection on my part.
Kind of reminiscent of – well – your average homily.
Or the footnotes to the NAB!
Oops! Sorry for the double post.
????
There is also a Feast of the Conception of St. John the Baptist which would place his conception at a higher priority than other conceptions (especially since we don’t celebrate those!)
http://www.mliles.com/melkite/prophetjohnbaptistconception.shtml
Lex Orandi Lex Credendi
How do I make a link appear so that you can click on it?
Addendum:
I do not believe that St. John the Baptist is higher than Our Lord or the Holy Theotokos, or that his conception was greater or more miraculous than theirs. But it is celebrated, whereas the conception of St. Leo the Great is not.
Isn’t the Benedictus that’s said at Lauds (i.e., in Morning Prayer) for the Divine Office all about St. John the Baptist???
Canticle: Benedictus
The Messiah and his forerunner
Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, for he has come to his people and brought about their redemption.
He has raised up the sign of salvation in the house of his servant David, as he promised through the mouth of the holy ones, his prophets through the ages: to rescue us from our enemies and all who hate us, to take pity on our fathers, to remember his holy covenant and the oath he swore to Abraham our father, that he would give himself to us, that we could serve him without fear – freed from the hands of our enemies – in uprightness and holiness before him, for all of our days.
And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High: for you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare his path,
to let his people know their salvation, so that their sins may be forgiven.
Through the bottomless mercy of our God, one born on high will visit us
to give light to those who walk in darkness, who live in the shadow of death;
to lead our feet in the path of peace.
In fact:
The Benedictus was the song of thanksgiving uttered by Zachary (Zacharias or common modern English spelling: Zechariah) on the occasion of the birth of his son, Saint John the Baptist. It is Jewish in form, but Christian in sentiment.
For those interested, a great site you could visit in order to pray the Office can be found at:
http://www.universalis.com
Dr. Eric,
Although I’m sure that there are other ways to make a “clickable” link,
here is a link to one website that shows how.
Does the mark (on the forehead) and seal (with the Spirit) and the anoiting – of baptism – all refer to the same (baptism)?
anointing!
Listen guys, “for ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”. (Rom. 3:23) Mary sinned, Joseph sinned, everyone but Jesus (God Himself) sinned. Mary was blessed because she believed God. God likes it when we place our faith in Him…and admit that we need Him. Trying to get into heaven by your own merit just won’t work. If you think that way you’re just like a PHARISEE…and they are the one’s that put Jesus on that cross. These are the traits that God looks for in a man/woman. (Ps. 34:18, 2 Chron. 7:14) Eph. 2:8-9 “By grace are you SAVED through faith, and NOT that of yourselves, it is the gift of God, lest any man should boast.”
There is no need to jump through hoops to explain scripture. John 1 states it clearly, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” We don’t have to try to explain everything away by saying such silly things as “John had original sin at conception, but lost it before birth, therefore he’s not as great as Mary”.
How can one witness to lost souls with such a statement. Time is short! Let’s be humble and try to do what we can to lead others to Christ, not sit around like Pharisees and debate scripture. We might as well draw up our own Talmud if we do.
God bless,
Ryan
Can a child who has not reached the age of reason sin? If so, how? Since Jesus is true man as well as true God, St. Paul’s use of the word “all” cannot be taken literally, as “all” would, thereby, include Jesus.
We don’t try to get to heaven by our own merit. That is Pelegianism, which the Catholic Church has always condemned.
We agree that we are saved by grace, as the Catholic Church has always taught.
We don’t say “…such silly things as “John had original sin at conception, but lost it before birth, therefore he’s not as great as Mary’.” We, therefore, don’t “witness to lost souls with such a statement”.
Since Mary was hailed by the angel Gabriel as “Full of Grace”, she must have been conceived without the stain of original sin; only one who is without sin can be *full* of grace. Since God exists outside of time, He sees all times in His eternal present. He sees Jesus’ redemptive death and Mary’s conception in the womb of her mother simultaneously and applies Jesus’ merits to Mary at her conception, which is why Mary calls Him her Savior.
Someone (can’t remember who) compared Jesus’ application of His saving grace to the soul of His Mother (from the moment of her conception) to someone who, seeing that another is about to fall into a pit, saves the other before he is exposed to danger.
Thank you for an intelligent response. This is quite enlightening for me and I must admit, I am impressed by how you answered my comments with such humility. I’m a HUGE fan of Mel Gibson’s by the way, and I know he’s Catholic, so you all can’t be that bad. 🙂
From one believer to another, as a Protestant I’ve always cringed when my Catholic brothers in the faith had made such worshipful comments to the Virgin Mary. I believe only God should be worshiped, and since Jesus qualifies as ‘God’, He qualifies.
But please, take my comments in the Spirit in which that are intended. I think your site is great, as it’s the first Catholic site I’ve visited that didn’t seem to be so drab. Thank you for your thoughtful and humble responses.
Ryan
Oh, I think that we can all agree that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. Commentaries are great for discussion, but that’s about it. If you don’t believe exactly the way I do or vice versa, commentaries are going to do nothing to sway either side, they only help you become more entrenched in your own beliefs. Jesus Himself even said, “Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 19:14 I believe in the simplicity of the Word. The Gospel is laid out in such a way that a child can understand it.
Romans
3:23
5:8
6:23
10:9-10
10:13
Acts 4:12
Eph 2:8-9
That about sums up my beliefs on how one can receive salvation through Christ. Am I missing anything here?
Oh! I almost forgot. bill912 asked the question, “Can a child who has not reached the age of reason sin? If so, how?”
For that I would simply say look at your kid! No disrespect there, I have 2 kids of my own! If little Timmy doesn’t get his spank spank (which God’s Word commands with love of course) then lil’ Timmy is going to get WORSE. Just thought I would help to keep it light.
From one believer to another, as a Protestant I’ve always cringed when my Catholic brothers in the faith had made such worshipful comments to the Virgin Mary.
I obviously can’t speak to whatever any Catholics have said to you, but it has been my experience that any fellow Catholics I’ve ever known don’t speak worshipfully of Mary. If a man says “I adore my wife,” no one thinks that the fellow is guilty of idolatry.
Furthermore, Jesus said to His Apostles, “He who rejects you rejects me.” I follows that whoever loves those whom Our Lord loves, also loves Him. We revere and love Mary because Jesus blessed her and chose her to be the instrument of His coming. I’m sure that some Catholic express a little clumsily their love for Jesus’ Mother, but they are not, I’m sure, idol worshipers. Our Lord welcomes, and does not condemn, love for those whom He loves and who love Him. This fellowship of love increases the Love which is in the body of Christ. It cannot take away from His glory, but rather adds to it, since all good comes from Him and returns to Him.
But please, take my comments in the Spirit in which that are intended. I think your site is great, as it’s the first Catholic site I’ve visited that didn’t seem to be so drab. Thank you for your thoughtful and humble responses.
I also thank you. Peace.
For that I would simply say look at your kid! No disrespect there, I have 2 kids of my own! If little Timmy doesn’t get his spank spank (which God’s Word commands with love of course) then lil’ Timmy is going to get WORSE. Just thought I would help to keep it light.
Insufficient.
By that logic, a dog sins, because if a dog is not disciplined, it behaves worse.
David B, thank you for your insight. What you have said has helped deepen my understanding of the Catholic faith in a better way.
Mary who has said insufficient. I agree with you. Sorry to be so sort what I meant by that was what is meant by the Scriptures when they say:
Proverbs 13:24 (King James Version)
24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Proverbs 22:15 (King James Version)
15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Proverbs 23:13 (King James Version)
13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Proverbs 29:15 (King James Version)
15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.
but I think this is THE verse that must compliment the others, for I should know, I had an angry stepfather. 🙂
Ephesians 6:4 (King James Version)
4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
Is that sufficient for you Mary? I hope so. Thanks for pointing that out. I agree that I was insufficient.
But hey, no need for me to redirect you to THE BENEDICTUS or something like that. I find the simple truth of God’s word (John 1:1) is more than sufficient for me. 🙂
Much love, and careful, I’m starting to like you guys.
God Bless,
Ryan
David B, thank you for your insight. What you have said has helped deepen my understanding of the Catholic faith in a better way.
You’re very kind. What I have said has been said many times before in better ways and by better men than I. I’m glad my words fell upon the ears (maybe eyes is closer) of someone who is willing to listen 🙂
Much love, and careful, I’m starting to like you guys.
God Bless,
Ryan
Same here! We may disagree, but at least we can with charity! 🙂
Yet another way to explain the Catholic idea about Mary’s place:
1. The Commandment is: Honor thy Father and Thy Mother
2. Jesus kept the commandments, perfectly
3. St. John says that anyone who follows Jesus ought to conduct themselves as he did
3a. We are adopted into the family of Christ at Baptism which implies that Mary becomes our adopted mother
4. Therefore, by 3 and 3a, it follows that we should also honor Christ’s mother. Note, the commandment does not say worship thy father and mother, but to honor them.
5. Catholics apply this by honoring Mary, not worshiping her, but since she is a special mother, the honor due her is special. Wouldn’t you hold a special place in your heart for the woman who gave birth to the man who saved you? That is how Catholics approach (or should approach – passions can go overboard and begin to look like worship) the veneration of Mary. We treat her as our adopted Mother who is worthy of great respect, honor, and love – as any mother has the right to, but she, even moreso, because of her place in salvation history and her closeness to her son.
If a man is dating a woman (or vise versa), how many times has it happened that he might approach the woman’s mother to, “put in a good word”? Why cannot we ask Mary to do the same with her son? There is only one mediator between God and man, Jesus, but of all of the people who hold Jesus’s ear, whom’s is closer? Would not Jesus listen to Mary and want to continue to honor her?
The Chicken
Mr. Chicken,
Thank you for your comments. Comments 1-4 I agree with you wholeheartedly, brother. And I mean brother in every sense of the word because you have said yourself that you’ve trusted Jesus Christ to save you from your sins. (Rom. 3:23, 5:8, 6:23, 10:9-10, 10:13) We agree on the essentials, it’s only the non-essentials that we disagree upon and I think that’s very important to keep in mind. If I am not paying Mary her due by merely holding her in high regard I do not believe I am committing a sin. To be completely honest, I think much of what you have said makes sense, but you see, in my mind, it’s not up to me as to what I think. This is the most important point that I have to offer you Mr. Chicken:
“Everything I believe has to be supported by the Word of God.”
If you could tell me where in the Bible it says that I should ‘pray’ to the Virgin Mary tell me and I would do so immediately. But for my take on all of this I would encourage you to read these passages of Scripture:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Timothy 2:5 (King James Version)
5 For there is one God, and one MEDIATOR between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (NOT MARY)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 14:13-15 (King James Version)
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Timothy 2:4-6 (King James Version)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 John 2 (King James Version)
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ephesians 4:5 (King James Version)
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So, I take all this to mean that Christ alone is my only mediator and advocate to God, therefore I pray to Him alone. Since God and Jesus are part of the Trinity (Father (only one Father btw), Son, & Holy Ghost) I pray to God with the help of the Holy Spirit & close with “In Jesus name”. I would never consider praying to Mary or anyone else other than God because praying is a form of worship.
That’s my take friends.
God Bless,
Ryan