We’re coming up on May–a month associated with the Virgin Mary–so here’s a new video on one of the most common objections to the rosary: the charge that it amounts to “vain repetitions,” in violation of Jesus’ command (Matt. 6:7).
By the way, I’m also preparing an “interview” with John Paul II on the rosary, so if you’d like to get his wisdom on this special devotion, sign up for the Secret Information Club and on May 1st you’ll get it by email.
Jimmy was born in Texas, grew up nominally Protestant, but at age 20 experienced a profound conversion to Christ. Planning on becoming a Protestant seminary professor, he started an intensive study of the Bible. But the more he immersed himself in Scripture the more he found to support the Catholic faith, and in 1992 he entered the Catholic Church. His conversion story, "A Triumph and a Tragedy," is published in Surprised by Truth. Besides being an author, Jimmy is the Senior Apologist at Catholic Answers, a contributing editor to Catholic Answers Magazine, and a weekly guest on "Catholic Answers Live."
View all posts by Jimmy Akin
33 thoughts on “VIDEO: Is the Rosary Just “Vain Repetitions”?”
Great video Jimmy! You reference a lot of material that I haven’t heard on this topic. I am a little surprised that you didn’t reference Jesus praying, using the same words, in the Garden of Gethsemane (Matthew 26:44, and Mark 14:39), as well as the angels in Revelation 4:8 praying the same words day and night, never stopping. Even without these verses you make a solid case. Thanks!
“And when you are praying, speak not much [repetitiously, as you state], as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard.” Mt 6:7, Douay
Repetitious? Of course. Even its experienced practitioners use a bead chain to keep track of place in it.
Heathenish? Yes, Buddhists and others use bead chains and prayer wheels to keep track of their repetitious prayers. (Buddhism predates Christianity by about 600 years.)
Vain? Yes, if God closes his ears to it, which he will if a prayer violates a rule for prayer clearly stated by in his word:
John 14:6 “Jesus said to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father, but by me.” (Prayers to and through Mary, then, have no force.)
1 Tim 2:5 “For there is one God: and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:” (No “mediatrix”.)
Several other scriptures on the same topic with the same teaching.
Doug, If that is truly your attitude, then make sure you inform your friend who might in the future come to you in distress, asking for your prayers, inform him that you are not allowed to mediate for him and that he is to go right to Jesus, and never ask you to pray for him again.
Also, I don’t know if you are married but if you are I hope you tell your wife that you love her more than one time. Even though, according to your premise, telling her that you love her more than once a day every day is ‘vain repetition’. I don’t think she would see it that way.
We are all members of the body of Christ. Those who have gone on before us don’t stop being members of the body. In fact, the prayers of those who are now in glory are so much more powerful and efficacious than our prayers who are still in this life.
When we pray to Our Lady or any of the Saints what we are doing is simply asking them to pray for us. Something we are all commanded to do. We are all family and this takes nothing away from Our Lord.
I will pray for you even though you think that I am not allowed.
God bless…
Doug,
You don’t understand the Commuion of Saints, my friend.
Here is a link to some information sure to help you:
Here are TWO key points: FIRST, the Christian but anti-Catholic says that it’s vain repetition and that it offends GOD and he already knows what we are praying. Well, if this true, then the Christian (but anti-Catholic) should only pray one time for a particular issue and never ask anyone else to pray for him or her either because in a sense, it is vain repetition: GOD already knows. SECOND, and maybe Mr. Akin can elaborate on this one. My guess is that the “vain repetition” translation came after the reformation. Maybe, it was changed to support a particular agenda. Peace. Thank you Mr. Akin .
See my reply to Rob, below. Anything from the Bible you wish to discuss?
When one aligns and makes present all three faculties of the memory, intellect and will in consideration of the Gospel meditations of the Rosary and allows the Our Father and Hail Marys to fall into the backround, in my experience, this prayer becomes anything other than ‘vain repetition.’
“And I tell you truly, that, when the soul undertakes to gather together, with the hand of free choice, her powers in My Name, then are assembled all the actions, both spiritual and temporal, that the creature can do, and free choice gets rid of sensuality and binds itself with reason. I, then, by grace, rest in the midst of them; and this is what My truth, the Word Incarnate, meant, when He said: ‘When there are two or three or more gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them.’ And this is the truth. I have already told you that no one could come to Me except by Him, and therefore I made of Him a Bridge with three steps.” (A TREATISE OF DISCRETION – THE DIALOGUE OF THE SERAPHIC VIRGIN CATHERINE OF SIENA)
Dismas, an interesting post. Con’t find any “SERAPHIC VIRGIN CATHERINE OF SIENA” in my Bible nor in the Douay, though; where is she in yours?
BTW “seraph” in the Bibles I read is an angel, and they’re all male creatures. Can you explain?
Sure I can explain. You won’t find THE DIALOGUE OF SAINT CATHERINE OF SIENA or THE DIALOGUE OF THE SERAPHIC VIRGIN CATHERINE OF SIENA in your Bible. It is a book written by St. Catherine of Siena, she has been named a Doctor of our Church. Unfortunately, I can’t find anything in the Catholic Encyclopedia as to how the orginal manuscript or St. Catherine got the name seraphic virgin. Maybe I’ll find out when as I finish reading it?
I love it when everyone tries to second guess the Catholic Church. Why don’t you try the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Part Four is titled: Christian Prayer………It is better to follow your faith (Catholic) than to interprete the Bible as you see it.
And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall in the ditch (Matthew 15:14).
Be ye perfect etc. (Matthew 5:48).
Jimmy,
You need a mic! My volume knob won’t go high enough haha.
Really love the message though. Keep it up
Thank You
Ron
Interesting Doug. Touche!
How dare Catherine of Siena assert individual authority to interpret the Bible as they choose! We need to get rid of all of those biblical commentaries out there! (jk)
I see a few problems with your objection list though.
By claiming repeating prayers is bad, you’re implying that only improvised prayer is acceptable from a “scriptural” standpoint. This is contrary to scripture showing angels praying repetitively, and also to Jesus recommending the Our Father.
By claiming habits being in common with “heathens”, you basically open yourself to endless criticism, since bad people do similar things to everyone else. There is practically nothing that a good person does that has not also been done by one or more “bad” people.
Your claim that “No man comes to the Father, but by [Jesus]” categorically objects to all prayer addressed to anyone but Christ alone, even though Jesus constantly prayed to the Father, and instructed everyone to pray to the Father as well (See the “Our Father” reference above.)
As to not being able to find prayers in their full forms in the the Bible, perhaps you would feel a bit less scandalized to hear som of the biblical basis of the Hail Mary prayer.
“Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee (Lk 1:26;-28); blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus (Lk 1:42-43). Holy Mary, Mother of God (Lk 1:43), pray for us sinners (biblical relevance Dt 9:12-13,26-29), now and at the hour of our death. Amen (hebrew for Yes, I Approve)
Cheers.
ChrisKABA writes: “Your claim that “No man comes to the Father, but by [Jesus]” categorically objects to all prayer addressed to anyone but Christ alone, even though Jesus constantly prayed to the Father, and instructed everyone to pray to the Father as well (See the “Our Father” reference above.)”
Misleading: “Your claim that “No man …” NOT ‘my claim’ but that of Jesus.
Misleading: I ‘don’t categorically object to all prayer addressed to anyone but Christ alone’. No, Jesus and I categorically object to all prayer addressed to anyone but Jehovah alone: “No one comes TO the Father except THROUGH me.” This represents a big change in how God- Jehovah, not Jesus- wants to be approached. David, Moses and the rest of the Jewish nation approached him directly. Different now for Christians. (“Christian” I define as someone who observes the words of the Christ.)
Misleading (one error begets another): “even though Jesus constantly prayed to the Father, and instructed everyone to pray to the Father as well (See the “Our Father” reference above.)” True: Jesus constantly prayed to the Father. True: He instructed everyone to pray to the Father. The “paternoster” or “our father” or lord’s prayer” is a model prayer, some form of which I often (but not exclusively) pray. (If it isn’t meant as a model, then every prayer we read after that should be exactly the same. Examine the scriptures to see if this is so. Acts 17:11) First, it’s vitally important for Christians to hallow, sanctify, or clean up God’s name from all the slanders heaped on it over the centuries. (‘God took your baby to be with him in heaven.’ ‘God tortures sinners forever in hellfire.’ and so on.) Second, Christians SHOULD pray for Jehovah’s kingdom to come on earth, since it’s what He purposed for it and for us. (Gen 1:28; Ps 37:29) With this Jesus agrees (Ps 37:11), especially since he’s God’s chosen king, for a time. (1 Cor 15:28) Furthermore, I act in harmony with that prayer by telling others about that coming kingdom, which is good news indeed. (“… as it is in Heaven.” How much crime, famine, sickness, and death are there in Heaven, do you think?)
Unintended contradiction: “som of the biblical basis of the Hail Mary prayer” That is a greeting from an angel to Mary, not a prayer to her. Here is an example of a prayer to her, given by you: “Holy Mary, Mother of God (Lk 1:43), pray for us sinners.” The prayer and its language “Mother of god” are from church liturgy, not from the Bible. That, in turn, was the point of my response to the OP.
Read more carefully before you reply in future.
Doug:
How did you figure out that all you need for salvation is the Holy Bible? Did it just come to you or did someone tell you? If it be the first, then don’t you think He was being cruel making everyone putz around until you showed up? If it be the later, that means you relied upon the Bible AND teachers, hence the Good News is Bible and magisterium, ergo Catholicism.
Let’s drop the cuteness. You were taught that all you need for salvation is the Holy Bible which, if you could be honest with yourself, means that Sola Scripture is wrong because it disproves itself.
Darren writes: “You were taught …”
And you know what I was taught … how?
What I need for salvation is in the Bible, in the words of our Lord himself:
“Now this is eternal life: That they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” John 17:2, Douay
Do you disagree with any of this? Your church does: Jesus himself, IT says, is “true God and true man.”
For most of my life I had little knowledge of God or desire to obtain that knowledge. I had direct experience with magisteria from various pomp-and-circumstance religions and much acquired knowledge. None of it, as it happened, was scriptural. When I began to read and study the Bible itself I found its system to be better than any of the churches teachings; nothing since has changed that opinion.
So, my salvation will come from the God of the Bible, not from the traditions of men. BTW “sola scriptura” is another Catholic religious term nowhere found in the Bible.
Doug, I’m curious, what is your private interpretation of 2 Peter ? Can you please enlighten me, especially 2 Peter 1:19-21 and 2 Peter 3: 16-18? Does the watchtower include these scriptures in your bible or has the watchtower privately interpreted them to be unscriptural?
2 Peter 1:19-21
[19] And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.
[20] No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation: This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise.
[21] For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.
2 Peter 1:19-21
2 Peter 3: 16-18
[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction. [17] You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness. [18] But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and unto the day of eternity. Amen.
2 Peter 3: 16-18
Dismas, the comment after your first scriptural quote is interesting. (“This shews plainly that…”). It’s taken from a Catholic publication (Baltimore Catechism?) and ends, “but [our divines] do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise.”
So: ‘only Holy Ghost’ says Peter, but “judgment of the Church” says the Church. IMO not a good idea.
When I approach prophetic studies I first pray TO Jehovah THROUGH Jesus for a portion of Jehovah’s holy spirit to help me understand. If I run into trouble I turn to others with more experience and knowledge than I for help. (The experience of the Ethiopian eunuch is illustrative here. Acts 8:31.) In my case I long ago learned to trust the Watchtower folks for this, on at least two good grounds: They know and use and are not ashamed of God’s name as given thousands of times in God’s book- we even sing it, without the Pope’s permission 🙂 . They understand, as I and most children do, the significance of Father and Son; TWO people, not one or three. That’s for openers. Haven’t found that in any other religion except Judaism.
“take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise” I do so heed; see my litmus test for error, in the previous paragraph.
Oh Dismas, FYI,
The title “Seraphic Virgin” is descriptive.
The dictionary shows that the definition of the word “seraphic” is “1) of, or resembling, a seraph” (angel)“, or “2) blissfully serene; rapt“. Catherine’s devotion to Christ makes #2 the easier to understand.
As to “Virgin”, Catherine consecrated her virginity to Christ – in other words gave up a chance at marriage and children to give herself to Christ alone. I don’t know exactly what motivated her in this, but it certainly is in keeping with St. Paul’s mention that while it is good to marry, it is better to remain single (and so better able to remain focused on God.)
ChrisKABA [replying to Dismas]:
“2) blissfully serene; rapt“
Yes, and “angelic” and “cherubic” are often used likewise.
“1) of, or resembling, a seraph” (angel)“
Which cannot be true of her because Biblical angels are always male, as I noted.
Thanks for the clarification.
My original reply to you can be re-examined in light of some of the posts directed to/at/against my religious practices. 🙂 At least I quote Peter, a putative Pope, and Jesus, a close personal friend of Peter’s, not a non-Biblical woman who lived years later!
Hi Doug, sounds like you and I have similar backrounds. I wanted to let you know a little about the rosary on top of Jimmy’s excelent video. About 5 years ago my wife heard that Mary had asked the children of Fatima to say the rosary everyday for world peace so she went to the back room and prayed. Well about 2 seconds later we found ourselves being confirmed Catholic!! Every day I spend at least 20 min in contemplation of our Lords life with the rosary and another 1/2 hr at Mass, reading scripture, singing and praying for the world. Not even my most fervent weeks as a protastant allowed me as much time with Jesus as I get by the first hour of most days. If your days are like mine already stay with your faith tradition, but if not just try one rosary tonight.
God bless, I love you
Saint Louis De Montfort wrote an excellent book for us on the Rosary, and it is available from major online booksellers, new or used:
The Secret of the Rosary by St Louis Mary Grignion De Montfort
It should also be remembered, as Jimmy and others have said, that most of the words of the Rosary (aside from asking our Mother to pray for us), are taken directly from the Gospels. The words of the Holy Gospel are what’s being repeated. Is the repetition of these Holy words “vain?” I think not. On the contrary. Would pagans, then or now, use the words of the Gospel in prayer? Obviously not.
“aside from asking our Mother to pray for us”
… which goes directly against scripture, as I showed.
“Is the repetition of these Holy words “vain?”
Even one such prayer is in vain (unavailing) if it remains unheard by Jehovah because of a willful violation of his requirements. Even legitimate prayers can be ignored by the one called “the hearer of prayer”: “Therefore do not pray for this people, and do not take up praise and prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time of their cry to me, in the time of their affliction.” Jer 11:14
I’ll be sure and say a Rosary for you, Doug. Please pray for me too.
God bless
Hi again Doug,
Praying to our Blessed Mother (Mary tells us how she is to be addressed by “all generations”) is against you fallible interpretation. Of course all Christians can pray for each other. God loves us and has no steel door that shuts us off from our families when they pass from this world. We are not prevented from thinking about them and of course they are not kept from thinking and praying for us. In the Apocalypse we see the Martyrs praying for justice that has not yet happened on earth. They are actually the ones who really know what’s going on.
The blind man outside of Jerhico had no trouble repeating his prayer “And he cried, saying, Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me. And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me” and he was rewarded with sight.
Love you Doug
Jesse writes: “Mary tells us how she is to be addressed”
Where? Don’t find it in my Bible. Did she tell you?
“Blessed Mother” ‘The Jerusalem above is our mother’ says my Bible- and yours. Gal 4:25,26; Rev 3;12; 21:2,10
“The blind man outside of Jerhico (sic) had no trouble repeating his prayer”
He was ASKING Jesus for help. It’s true that ‘I pray’ can be syn0nymous with ‘I ask’ but it’s sophistry to equate PRAYING to someone in heaven [our topic here, remember?] with ASKING someone on the earth.
Doug is obviously a troll who has little if any interest in the Catholic position, even if he -secretly- agrees with something. Better to stay on the pages he approves of methinks.
This idea of vain repetition used to bother me until I saw what happens when you actually pray the Rosary-oops-and then I became Catholic. Many graces come from this devotion not as though it were a magic formulae, but because someone has asked for something in faith. Its a development from the practise of praying the psalms, nothing to get too distressed about.
It is not an issue of Mary per se, rather graces flow because Jesus is the centre of all Marian devotion!
Jesus was probably the main culprit in “vain repetition” by praying the psalms, attending Jewish liturgies and fulfilling the other rites and ordinances of Judaism. Its time to give up silliness and embrace truth.
Wanna try to cross my bridge, Jonathon?
“Jesus was probably the main culprit in “vain repetition” ”
And that’s why he counsels against it early in his 3+ year preaching career? Then- according to you- kept on doing it? (“fulfilling the other rites and ordinances of Judaism”) Mt 12:25 ff; Mr 3:24 ff; Lu 11:17 ff.
In John’s gospel, Ch. 2, 1-12, we have an account of Mary asking Jesus for a favor.
The lesson of this miracle includes several points:
1) Jesus is NOT all about suffering, and joins with his friends in celebrations when appropriate;
2) Jesus has power over created elements;
and,
3) Jesus does favors for His mother, from time to time.
Not a bad thing to ponder.
TeaPot562
Doug writes: “So, my salvation will come from the God of the Bible, not from the traditions of men. BTW “sola scriptura” is another Catholic religious term nowhere found in the Bible.”
The Catholic Church makes no claim to “sola scriptura”. In fact, the Church has spent the last 500 years arguing against it. It is a Protestant term to its core. It was invented in the 16th century, and never once even alluded to by any of the Church Fathers in the first 1500+ years of Christianity.
It was impossible for Sola Scriptura to even exist before the year 394 AD, as the Bible wasn’t even fully compiled yet. It took the Church to separate the wheat from the chaff. It was the Church that decided that the Gospel of Mark was inspired by the Holy Spirit, and the Secret Gospel of Peter was not. It was the Church that decided that the Letter of St. Jude was inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that the 3rd Letter to the Corinthians was not. If they had left it up to each individual, then there would have been utter chaos.
You state that your salvation will come from the God of the Bible, yet you deny the Church, founded by God Almighty, which gave us that Bible in the first place. Without the Church you would have no Bible to read.
It was the Church, made up of sinful men, who wrote, compiled, copied, and translated the Bible. From Sts. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (Without the Church, there is no reason to believe those men wrote the Gospels that bare their names.) To St. Jerome who translated the Greek of the New Testament into the Vulgar Latin of his day so that more people could have access to those words, to the countless nameless scribes down through the centuries who copied, word-by-agonizing-word, Sacred Scripture so that we could have them today gathering dust on our bookshelves.
I haven’t even mentioned the countless men and women who suffered and died horribly for the Faith, St. Stephen, and Sts. Perpetua and Felicity come to mind. Note: They didn’t die for a book, as that book wasn’t compiled yet, they died for their Faith.
You are in debt to the Catholic Church for the Bible.
Protestantism is a dangerous heresy, which goes against the Bible (Galatians 5:20 where St. Paul mentions “Sects” as being sinful), and is full of man-made innovations.
Our Blessed Mother, the Angels and Saints in Heaven, Blessed JPII, and I will be praying for you, and your immortal soul Doug.
Rob writes: “…the Church, founded by God Almighty, which gave us that Bible in the first place.”
Here’s a relevant exchange from another Akin blog, What does hallowed …
[quote]
RichardC April 29, 2012 at 5:10 pm
I agree with the other commenters: Neat video. Was neat also how the Holy Father asked to quit singing a pronunciation of the Name of God, as per what you were talking about in your video.
Reply
Doug May 3, 2012 at 7:24 am
“Neat” comment.. Of course, it was sung at one time, as your Jerusalem Bible shows: “Yahweh is my shepherd …” Ps 23.
I think I’ll copy your post to use the next time a Catholic tells me, ‘The Church wrote and protects the Bible’ or ‘You wouldn’t have the Bible without the Church’ or ‘We shouldn’t use God’s name because the pronunciation isn’t known’ or the other equally specious statements I’ve heard.
BTW, will the JB now be on the Index? Just asking.[end quote]
Here’s your copy, Rob. 🙂
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Rob writes: “You are in debt to the Catholic Church for the Bible.” On the contrary, I learn from my studies that I have the Bible in spite of the bureaucracy known as the Catholic Church.
Two-thirds of it was written by Jews, many appointed directly by Jehovah to do so. This was long before Christianity existed in any form. The rest was written by men who lived their faith first: meeting in rented rooms, going door-to-door with the good news of God’s kingdom, wearing the plain robes and sandals of the day, teaching “the only true God” that Jesus knew instead of the three-headed God ‘that dare not speak his name’. Compare this with the mainstream churches at any time from Eusebius to the present. Are the Pope or Canterbury, in their Easter finery, anything like the man who ‘had nowhere to lay his head’?
The later history of Church suppression of the Bible written in the languages of the people and of ‘the countless men and women who suffered and died horribly for the Bible’ is as well-known to non-Catholics as it is unknown to lay Catholics.
And, one man’s sect is another man’s Christianity.
“idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects,” Gal 5:20
“But they said to [Paull]: …. But we desire to hear of you what you think: for as concerning [your] sect, we know that it is every where contradicted.” Acts 28:21
The word has a plain, descriptive meaning, but I avoid using it because it has become too loaded with the freight of contentions, wraths, quarrels, and dissensions. Same with the word “cult”, which is what your Church uses to describe the veneration of Mary- and the religion of ‘those nasty Jehovah’s Witnesses’!
Great video Jimmy! You reference a lot of material that I haven’t heard on this topic. I am a little surprised that you didn’t reference Jesus praying, using the same words, in the Garden of Gethsemane (Matthew 26:44, and Mark 14:39), as well as the angels in Revelation 4:8 praying the same words day and night, never stopping. Even without these verses you make a solid case. Thanks!
“And when you are praying, speak not much [repetitiously, as you state], as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard.” Mt 6:7, Douay
Repetitious? Of course. Even its experienced practitioners use a bead chain to keep track of place in it.
Heathenish? Yes, Buddhists and others use bead chains and prayer wheels to keep track of their repetitious prayers. (Buddhism predates Christianity by about 600 years.)
Vain? Yes, if God closes his ears to it, which he will if a prayer violates a rule for prayer clearly stated by in his word:
John 14:6 “Jesus said to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father, but by me.” (Prayers to and through Mary, then, have no force.)
1 Tim 2:5 “For there is one God: and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:” (No “mediatrix”.)
Several other scriptures on the same topic with the same teaching.
Doug, If that is truly your attitude, then make sure you inform your friend who might in the future come to you in distress, asking for your prayers, inform him that you are not allowed to mediate for him and that he is to go right to Jesus, and never ask you to pray for him again.
Also, I don’t know if you are married but if you are I hope you tell your wife that you love her more than one time. Even though, according to your premise, telling her that you love her more than once a day every day is ‘vain repetition’. I don’t think she would see it that way.
We are all members of the body of Christ. Those who have gone on before us don’t stop being members of the body. In fact, the prayers of those who are now in glory are so much more powerful and efficacious than our prayers who are still in this life.
When we pray to Our Lady or any of the Saints what we are doing is simply asking them to pray for us. Something we are all commanded to do. We are all family and this takes nothing away from Our Lord.
I will pray for you even though you think that I am not allowed.
God bless…
Doug,
You don’t understand the Commuion of Saints, my friend.
Here is a link to some information sure to help you:
http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/02/communion-of-saints-biblical-overview.html
God bless you.
Here are TWO key points: FIRST, the Christian but anti-Catholic says that it’s vain repetition and that it offends GOD and he already knows what we are praying. Well, if this true, then the Christian (but anti-Catholic) should only pray one time for a particular issue and never ask anyone else to pray for him or her either because in a sense, it is vain repetition: GOD already knows. SECOND, and maybe Mr. Akin can elaborate on this one. My guess is that the “vain repetition” translation came after the reformation. Maybe, it was changed to support a particular agenda. Peace. Thank you Mr. Akin .
See my reply to Rob, below. Anything from the Bible you wish to discuss?
When one aligns and makes present all three faculties of the memory, intellect and will in consideration of the Gospel meditations of the Rosary and allows the Our Father and Hail Marys to fall into the backround, in my experience, this prayer becomes anything other than ‘vain repetition.’
“And I tell you truly, that, when the soul undertakes to gather together, with the hand of free choice, her powers in My Name, then are assembled all the actions, both spiritual and temporal, that the creature can do, and free choice gets rid of sensuality and binds itself with reason. I, then, by grace, rest in the midst of them; and this is what My truth, the Word Incarnate, meant, when He said: ‘When there are two or three or more gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them.’ And this is the truth. I have already told you that no one could come to Me except by Him, and therefore I made of Him a Bridge with three steps.” (A TREATISE OF DISCRETION – THE DIALOGUE OF THE SERAPHIC VIRGIN CATHERINE OF SIENA)
Dismas, an interesting post. Con’t find any “SERAPHIC VIRGIN CATHERINE OF SIENA” in my Bible nor in the Douay, though; where is she in yours?
BTW “seraph” in the Bibles I read is an angel, and they’re all male creatures. Can you explain?
Sure I can explain. You won’t find THE DIALOGUE OF SAINT CATHERINE OF SIENA or THE DIALOGUE OF THE SERAPHIC VIRGIN CATHERINE OF SIENA in your Bible. It is a book written by St. Catherine of Siena, she has been named a Doctor of our Church. Unfortunately, I can’t find anything in the Catholic Encyclopedia as to how the orginal manuscript or St. Catherine got the name seraphic virgin. Maybe I’ll find out when as I finish reading it?
I love it when everyone tries to second guess the Catholic Church. Why don’t you try the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Part Four is titled: Christian Prayer………It is better to follow your faith (Catholic) than to interprete the Bible as you see it.
And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall in the ditch (Matthew 15:14).
Be ye perfect etc. (Matthew 5:48).
Jimmy,
You need a mic! My volume knob won’t go high enough haha.
Really love the message though. Keep it up
Thank You
Ron
Interesting Doug. Touche!
How dare Catherine of Siena assert individual authority to interpret the Bible as they choose! We need to get rid of all of those biblical commentaries out there! (jk)
I see a few problems with your objection list though.
By claiming repeating prayers is bad, you’re implying that only improvised prayer is acceptable from a “scriptural” standpoint. This is contrary to scripture showing angels praying repetitively, and also to Jesus recommending the Our Father.
By claiming habits being in common with “heathens”, you basically open yourself to endless criticism, since bad people do similar things to everyone else. There is practically nothing that a good person does that has not also been done by one or more “bad” people.
Your claim that “No man comes to the Father, but by [Jesus]” categorically objects to all prayer addressed to anyone but Christ alone, even though Jesus constantly prayed to the Father, and instructed everyone to pray to the Father as well (See the “Our Father” reference above.)
As to not being able to find prayers in their full forms in the the Bible, perhaps you would feel a bit less scandalized to hear som of the biblical basis of the Hail Mary prayer.
“Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee (Lk 1:26;-28); blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus (Lk 1:42-43). Holy Mary, Mother of God (Lk 1:43), pray for us sinners (biblical relevance Dt 9:12-13,26-29), now and at the hour of our death. Amen (hebrew for Yes, I Approve)
Cheers.
ChrisKABA writes: “Your claim that “No man comes to the Father, but by [Jesus]” categorically objects to all prayer addressed to anyone but Christ alone, even though Jesus constantly prayed to the Father, and instructed everyone to pray to the Father as well (See the “Our Father” reference above.)”
Misleading: “Your claim that “No man …” NOT ‘my claim’ but that of Jesus.
Misleading: I ‘don’t categorically object to all prayer addressed to anyone but Christ alone’. No, Jesus and I categorically object to all prayer addressed to anyone but Jehovah alone: “No one comes TO the Father except THROUGH me.” This represents a big change in how God- Jehovah, not Jesus- wants to be approached. David, Moses and the rest of the Jewish nation approached him directly. Different now for Christians. (“Christian” I define as someone who observes the words of the Christ.)
Misleading (one error begets another): “even though Jesus constantly prayed to the Father, and instructed everyone to pray to the Father as well (See the “Our Father” reference above.)” True: Jesus constantly prayed to the Father. True: He instructed everyone to pray to the Father. The “paternoster” or “our father” or lord’s prayer” is a model prayer, some form of which I often (but not exclusively) pray. (If it isn’t meant as a model, then every prayer we read after that should be exactly the same. Examine the scriptures to see if this is so. Acts 17:11) First, it’s vitally important for Christians to hallow, sanctify, or clean up God’s name from all the slanders heaped on it over the centuries. (‘God took your baby to be with him in heaven.’ ‘God tortures sinners forever in hellfire.’ and so on.) Second, Christians SHOULD pray for Jehovah’s kingdom to come on earth, since it’s what He purposed for it and for us. (Gen 1:28; Ps 37:29) With this Jesus agrees (Ps 37:11), especially since he’s God’s chosen king, for a time. (1 Cor 15:28) Furthermore, I act in harmony with that prayer by telling others about that coming kingdom, which is good news indeed. (“… as it is in Heaven.” How much crime, famine, sickness, and death are there in Heaven, do you think?)
Unintended contradiction: “som of the biblical basis of the Hail Mary prayer” That is a greeting from an angel to Mary, not a prayer to her. Here is an example of a prayer to her, given by you: “Holy Mary, Mother of God (Lk 1:43), pray for us sinners.” The prayer and its language “Mother of god” are from church liturgy, not from the Bible. That, in turn, was the point of my response to the OP.
Read more carefully before you reply in future.
Doug:
How did you figure out that all you need for salvation is the Holy Bible? Did it just come to you or did someone tell you? If it be the first, then don’t you think He was being cruel making everyone putz around until you showed up? If it be the later, that means you relied upon the Bible AND teachers, hence the Good News is Bible and magisterium, ergo Catholicism.
Let’s drop the cuteness. You were taught that all you need for salvation is the Holy Bible which, if you could be honest with yourself, means that Sola Scripture is wrong because it disproves itself.
Darren writes: “You were taught …”
And you know what I was taught … how?
What I need for salvation is in the Bible, in the words of our Lord himself:
“Now this is eternal life: That they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” John 17:2, Douay
Do you disagree with any of this? Your church does: Jesus himself, IT says, is “true God and true man.”
For most of my life I had little knowledge of God or desire to obtain that knowledge. I had direct experience with magisteria from various pomp-and-circumstance religions and much acquired knowledge. None of it, as it happened, was scriptural. When I began to read and study the Bible itself I found its system to be better than any of the churches teachings; nothing since has changed that opinion.
So, my salvation will come from the God of the Bible, not from the traditions of men. BTW “sola scriptura” is another Catholic religious term nowhere found in the Bible.
Doug, I’m curious, what is your private interpretation of 2 Peter ? Can you please enlighten me, especially 2 Peter 1:19-21 and 2 Peter 3: 16-18? Does the watchtower include these scriptures in your bible or has the watchtower privately interpreted them to be unscriptural?
2 Peter 1:19-21
[19] And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.
[20] No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation: This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise.
[21] For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.
2 Peter 1:19-21
2 Peter 3: 16-18
[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction. [17] You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness. [18] But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and unto the day of eternity. Amen.
2 Peter 3: 16-18
Dismas, the comment after your first scriptural quote is interesting. (“This shews plainly that…”). It’s taken from a Catholic publication (Baltimore Catechism?) and ends, “but [our divines] do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise.”
So: ‘only Holy Ghost’ says Peter, but “judgment of the Church” says the Church. IMO not a good idea.
When I approach prophetic studies I first pray TO Jehovah THROUGH Jesus for a portion of Jehovah’s holy spirit to help me understand. If I run into trouble I turn to others with more experience and knowledge than I for help. (The experience of the Ethiopian eunuch is illustrative here. Acts 8:31.) In my case I long ago learned to trust the Watchtower folks for this, on at least two good grounds: They know and use and are not ashamed of God’s name as given thousands of times in God’s book- we even sing it, without the Pope’s permission 🙂 . They understand, as I and most children do, the significance of Father and Son; TWO people, not one or three. That’s for openers. Haven’t found that in any other religion except Judaism.
“take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise” I do so heed; see my litmus test for error, in the previous paragraph.
Oh Dismas, FYI,
The title “Seraphic Virgin” is descriptive.
The dictionary shows that the definition of the word “seraphic” is “1) of, or resembling, a seraph” (angel)“, or “2) blissfully serene; rapt“. Catherine’s devotion to Christ makes #2 the easier to understand.
As to “Virgin”, Catherine consecrated her virginity to Christ – in other words gave up a chance at marriage and children to give herself to Christ alone. I don’t know exactly what motivated her in this, but it certainly is in keeping with St. Paul’s mention that while it is good to marry, it is better to remain single (and so better able to remain focused on God.)
ChrisKABA [replying to Dismas]:
“2) blissfully serene; rapt“
Yes, and “angelic” and “cherubic” are often used likewise.
“1) of, or resembling, a seraph” (angel)“
Which cannot be true of her because Biblical angels are always male, as I noted.
Thanks for the clarification.
My original reply to you can be re-examined in light of some of the posts directed to/at/against my religious practices. 🙂 At least I quote Peter, a putative Pope, and Jesus, a close personal friend of Peter’s, not a non-Biblical woman who lived years later!
Hi Doug, sounds like you and I have similar backrounds. I wanted to let you know a little about the rosary on top of Jimmy’s excelent video. About 5 years ago my wife heard that Mary had asked the children of Fatima to say the rosary everyday for world peace so she went to the back room and prayed. Well about 2 seconds later we found ourselves being confirmed Catholic!! Every day I spend at least 20 min in contemplation of our Lords life with the rosary and another 1/2 hr at Mass, reading scripture, singing and praying for the world. Not even my most fervent weeks as a protastant allowed me as much time with Jesus as I get by the first hour of most days. If your days are like mine already stay with your faith tradition, but if not just try one rosary tonight.
God bless, I love you
Saint Louis De Montfort wrote an excellent book for us on the Rosary, and it is available from major online booksellers, new or used:
The Secret of the Rosary by St Louis Mary Grignion De Montfort
It should also be remembered, as Jimmy and others have said, that most of the words of the Rosary (aside from asking our Mother to pray for us), are taken directly from the Gospels. The words of the Holy Gospel are what’s being repeated. Is the repetition of these Holy words “vain?” I think not. On the contrary. Would pagans, then or now, use the words of the Gospel in prayer? Obviously not.
“aside from asking our Mother to pray for us”
… which goes directly against scripture, as I showed.
“Is the repetition of these Holy words “vain?”
Even one such prayer is in vain (unavailing) if it remains unheard by Jehovah because of a willful violation of his requirements. Even legitimate prayers can be ignored by the one called “the hearer of prayer”: “Therefore do not pray for this people, and do not take up praise and prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time of their cry to me, in the time of their affliction.” Jer 11:14
I’ll be sure and say a Rosary for you, Doug. Please pray for me too.
God bless
Hi again Doug,
Praying to our Blessed Mother (Mary tells us how she is to be addressed by “all generations”) is against you fallible interpretation. Of course all Christians can pray for each other. God loves us and has no steel door that shuts us off from our families when they pass from this world. We are not prevented from thinking about them and of course they are not kept from thinking and praying for us. In the Apocalypse we see the Martyrs praying for justice that has not yet happened on earth. They are actually the ones who really know what’s going on.
The blind man outside of Jerhico had no trouble repeating his prayer “And he cried, saying, Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me. And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me” and he was rewarded with sight.
Love you Doug
Jesse writes: “Mary tells us how she is to be addressed”
Where? Don’t find it in my Bible. Did she tell you?
“Blessed Mother” ‘The Jerusalem above is our mother’ says my Bible- and yours. Gal 4:25,26; Rev 3;12; 21:2,10
“The blind man outside of Jerhico (sic) had no trouble repeating his prayer”
He was ASKING Jesus for help. It’s true that ‘I pray’ can be syn0nymous with ‘I ask’ but it’s sophistry to equate PRAYING to someone in heaven [our topic here, remember?] with ASKING someone on the earth.
Doug is obviously a troll who has little if any interest in the Catholic position, even if he -secretly- agrees with something. Better to stay on the pages he approves of methinks.
This idea of vain repetition used to bother me until I saw what happens when you actually pray the Rosary-oops-and then I became Catholic. Many graces come from this devotion not as though it were a magic formulae, but because someone has asked for something in faith. Its a development from the practise of praying the psalms, nothing to get too distressed about.
It is not an issue of Mary per se, rather graces flow because Jesus is the centre of all Marian devotion!
Jesus was probably the main culprit in “vain repetition” by praying the psalms, attending Jewish liturgies and fulfilling the other rites and ordinances of Judaism. Its time to give up silliness and embrace truth.
Wanna try to cross my bridge, Jonathon?
“Jesus was probably the main culprit in “vain repetition” ”
And that’s why he counsels against it early in his 3+ year preaching career? Then- according to you- kept on doing it? (“fulfilling the other rites and ordinances of Judaism”) Mt 12:25 ff; Mr 3:24 ff; Lu 11:17 ff.
In John’s gospel, Ch. 2, 1-12, we have an account of Mary asking Jesus for a favor.
The lesson of this miracle includes several points:
1) Jesus is NOT all about suffering, and joins with his friends in celebrations when appropriate;
2) Jesus has power over created elements;
and,
3) Jesus does favors for His mother, from time to time.
Not a bad thing to ponder.
TeaPot562
Doug writes: “So, my salvation will come from the God of the Bible, not from the traditions of men. BTW “sola scriptura” is another Catholic religious term nowhere found in the Bible.”
The Catholic Church makes no claim to “sola scriptura”. In fact, the Church has spent the last 500 years arguing against it. It is a Protestant term to its core. It was invented in the 16th century, and never once even alluded to by any of the Church Fathers in the first 1500+ years of Christianity.
It was impossible for Sola Scriptura to even exist before the year 394 AD, as the Bible wasn’t even fully compiled yet. It took the Church to separate the wheat from the chaff. It was the Church that decided that the Gospel of Mark was inspired by the Holy Spirit, and the Secret Gospel of Peter was not. It was the Church that decided that the Letter of St. Jude was inspired by the Holy Spirit, and that the 3rd Letter to the Corinthians was not. If they had left it up to each individual, then there would have been utter chaos.
You state that your salvation will come from the God of the Bible, yet you deny the Church, founded by God Almighty, which gave us that Bible in the first place. Without the Church you would have no Bible to read.
It was the Church, made up of sinful men, who wrote, compiled, copied, and translated the Bible. From Sts. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (Without the Church, there is no reason to believe those men wrote the Gospels that bare their names.) To St. Jerome who translated the Greek of the New Testament into the Vulgar Latin of his day so that more people could have access to those words, to the countless nameless scribes down through the centuries who copied, word-by-agonizing-word, Sacred Scripture so that we could have them today gathering dust on our bookshelves.
I haven’t even mentioned the countless men and women who suffered and died horribly for the Faith, St. Stephen, and Sts. Perpetua and Felicity come to mind. Note: They didn’t die for a book, as that book wasn’t compiled yet, they died for their Faith.
You are in debt to the Catholic Church for the Bible.
Protestantism is a dangerous heresy, which goes against the Bible (Galatians 5:20 where St. Paul mentions “Sects” as being sinful), and is full of man-made innovations.
Our Blessed Mother, the Angels and Saints in Heaven, Blessed JPII, and I will be praying for you, and your immortal soul Doug.
Rob writes: “…the Church, founded by God Almighty, which gave us that Bible in the first place.”
Here’s a relevant exchange from another Akin blog, What does hallowed …
[quote]
RichardC April 29, 2012 at 5:10 pm
I agree with the other commenters: Neat video. Was neat also how the Holy Father asked to quit singing a pronunciation of the Name of God, as per what you were talking about in your video.
Reply
Doug May 3, 2012 at 7:24 am
“Neat” comment.. Of course, it was sung at one time, as your Jerusalem Bible shows: “Yahweh is my shepherd …” Ps 23.
I think I’ll copy your post to use the next time a Catholic tells me, ‘The Church wrote and protects the Bible’ or ‘You wouldn’t have the Bible without the Church’ or ‘We shouldn’t use God’s name because the pronunciation isn’t known’ or the other equally specious statements I’ve heard.
BTW, will the JB now be on the Index? Just asking.[end quote]
Here’s your copy, Rob. 🙂
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Rob writes: “You are in debt to the Catholic Church for the Bible.” On the contrary, I learn from my studies that I have the Bible in spite of the bureaucracy known as the Catholic Church.
Two-thirds of it was written by Jews, many appointed directly by Jehovah to do so. This was long before Christianity existed in any form. The rest was written by men who lived their faith first: meeting in rented rooms, going door-to-door with the good news of God’s kingdom, wearing the plain robes and sandals of the day, teaching “the only true God” that Jesus knew instead of the three-headed God ‘that dare not speak his name’. Compare this with the mainstream churches at any time from Eusebius to the present. Are the Pope or Canterbury, in their Easter finery, anything like the man who ‘had nowhere to lay his head’?
The later history of Church suppression of the Bible written in the languages of the people and of ‘the countless men and women who suffered and died horribly for the Bible’ is as well-known to non-Catholics as it is unknown to lay Catholics.
And, one man’s sect is another man’s Christianity.
“idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects,” Gal 5:20
“But they said to [Paull]: …. But we desire to hear of you what you think: for as concerning [your] sect, we know that it is every where contradicted.” Acts 28:21
The word has a plain, descriptive meaning, but I avoid using it because it has become too loaded with the freight of contentions, wraths, quarrels, and dissensions. Same with the word “cult”, which is what your Church uses to describe the veneration of Mary- and the religion of ‘those nasty Jehovah’s Witnesses’!