Tim Jones, here.
"We live in a land where you
can choose same-sex marriage or opposite. And you know what, I think in
my country, in my family, I think that I believe that a marriage should
be between a man and a woman. No offense to anybody out there, but
that's how I was raised." (FOX News)
This is the tepid and tentative endorsement of traditional marriage that, on the one hand, cost Carrie Prejean (Miss California USA and Miss USA finalist) the Miss USA
crown, and that on the other hand has caused her to be lionized in the
conservative press… neither of which makes any sense, based on what
she actually said. Presidential candidate Barack Obama said essentially
the same thing months ago.
This throws some light on the whole gay agenda and on politics in general here in the U.S..
Carrie
Prejean will be known henceforth in the public mind as "the girl who
would have been Miss USA", but for the presence of a flaming gay
activist judge, and the girl who actually won the competition (does
anyone know her name?) will be forever known as "the girl who beat
Carrie Prejean".
The gay judge, Perez Hilton, got his thong in a
twist because he wanted to hear Miss Prejean say, "Golly, I think
chocolate and vanilla are both just swell…" and she had the audacity
to say "I think… I prefer chocolate. No offense to vanilla people.".
As
Mark Shea has observed time and again, where the gay agenda is
concerned "Tolerance Is Not Enough! You Must Approve!". The message
(and this episode is only its latest incarnation) is very clear: "You
want to make it in the entertainment business? Then…" – I was going
to say, "learn to keep your mouth shut", but the real lesson is –
"learn to parrot the opinions we give you – with enthusiasm – or else".
That's
nothing new, it's just acquired the brashness that is the hallmak of a
bully who has grown accustomed to success. Their fear campaign has
worked, in large measure. "Agree with us, publicly, if you want to
work. Disagree and you will be passed over". It used to be that
aspiring entertainers were passed over in private meetings… now they
are passed over publicly, clapped in irons and pelted with fruit.
Pelted by fruits, you might say. What's troubling is that the same
thing is happening in corporate offices and boardrooms. Learn to say
the right thing, if you value your job.
But then, in the
hinterlands of the right, you have Fox News throwing Miss Prejean a
virtual ticker tape parade, treating her as if she had said, "Mr. Perez
Hilton, tear down this wall!!!", ignoring the fact that her answer was
in fact very meekly pro-marriage, and lacked any moral conviction, that
she took pains to emphasize that this was just her opinion… that she
is, in regard to gay marriage, "personally opposed, but…"
I
know she's young, and that she's no philosopher, and that she was on
the spot and under a great deal of pressure, and I suppose I should be
happy she was able to stammer her way through any kind of half-hearted
endorsement of real marriage at all… but it's not as if she didn't
know the question might come up. The contestants do see them in advance
(though they don't know which one they may be asked).
I'm appalled that she was set up,
basically, by a gossip Queen who (wrapping himself in the PFLAG) was
determined to deny the Miss USA title to anyone not solidly toeing the
line of the gay agenda, but I'm also appalled at the reaction to her
speech at both ends of the political spectrum.
(visit Tim Jones' blog Old World Swine)
Tim J, you just posted right on top of me. Like, within sixty seconds or something. That was weird.
52 seconds, to be exact.
Sorry, man. Does that mean trouble for me at the next meeting of the Super-Secret Cabal of Catholic Bloggers?
The answer may have been weak, but the responses in pageants have never been powerful. At least she said (later) that she wouldn’t try to appease the gay guy even for the crown. She probably worked hard to get there, and could have done far worse than she did. “Thanks, but no thanks” isn’t good, but it’s better than nothing, and I (having never been asked that before millions of people) can’t judge her harshly.
…I hope I haven’t appalled you Tim J. 🙂
I am annoyed at your interpretation of what this young lady said. As you stated, she was young and on the spot. Also, I think it is obvious that she was trying to pound out her response to fit her ideal. Instead of doing what the politicians you mention do: pound out their ideal to fit their response. I think, considering everything- the nature of pageants,etc. that this is miles away from being a quisling. I think she struck a blow for regular people in the US, even if it did start slow she said what needed to be said in the end. I think she deserves the lionization.
P.S. Most of article was good though- actually very funny! I loved the “fruits” comment!
It was an awkward response and not one I’d categorize as articulate. But she deserves some applause and credit for even suggesting that marriage ought to be between one man and one woman. I’m very proud of her for staying true to those convictions. Fox News did a follow up interview with her (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,517228,00.html) and she definitely showed conviction and guts. Considering she’s only 21 (one year younger than me) and put on the spot like that in front of national television, it’s worth commending. Granted she’ll be forgotten by next week, but at least you have, in an instance, a hint of my generation standing up against the bullies of the Radical Left and the Radical Gay agenda.
It may be that I’m being a little rough on Miss Prejean. Let me put it this way; her failure to capitulate – knowing what it would cost her – was remarkable. Her speech wasn’t.
So, I applaud her actions, even if she stumbled her way through. I should do so well on national teevee.
I think the conservative press ought to be talking about what has happened to the pageant, rather trying to make Miss Prejean into the latest version of Joe the Plumber.
My confusion is over why anyone would look to a trade (or members thereof) which has vanity as its chief virtue for moral conviction.
Doesn’t anyone see the irony of a gay judge at a female ‘beauty’ contest? Or is it an effort to convince the public this event really isn’t a ‘beauty’ contest? “See we even have gay judges.”
Despite what has been characterized as a tepid and poorly worded response to a question that probably didn’t need to be asked in the situation. this young woman is an American heroine. The gay activist with the phoney name will fade away, and few will care.
There was something seriously amiss with Miss California’s answer. Contrary to what she said, in 46 states, including her own state of California, and as a nation, the people do NOT live in a land they can choose same-sex marriage or opposite. No wonder she followed it up with an “I think that I believe”.
I loved her grandma’s response: “I don’t know why that gay guy Perez was even judging a contest with a bunch of girls. That doesn’t make any sense. He should be judging a Chippendale’s contest.”
Perhaps he has a perspective on women’s beauty that lusting men and jealous women don’t have. Among the panel of judges for this sexist competition, his view was just one of the many prejudices.
Tim, when you have had the same experience as Carrie Prejean — having to answer an unexpected question about your values and morals that puts you on the spot and forces you to risk losing a lifelong goal — then you can criticize. Until then….
Sorry, man. Does that mean trouble for me at the next meeting of the Super-Secret Cabal of Catholic Bloggers?
That explains so much… do you guys have a secret handshake?
Joseph D’Hippolito: when you have had the same experience as Tim Jones, then you can criticize. Until then…
“…having to answer an unexpected question about your values and morals that puts you on the spot and forces you to risk losing a lifelong goal”
It wasn’t unexpected. It was one of twelve questions that the contestants were shown before hand. She knew she might be asked to respond to it and had the opportunity to prepare.
Like I say, I admire the fact that she didn’t cave – she gets high marks for that – but her statement itself was full of equivocation. I think presenting her as a heroine (as one reader does, above) is a bit much, that’s all.
“Perhaps he has a perspective on women’s beauty that lusting men and jealous women don’t have”
You mean like so many of the gay designers of women’s runway fashions? It appears to me that many of them must hate women, or fear women.
How many staight guys do you know that design women’s clothing?- and I mean really do the designing, not just own the label.
I think this story is remarkable for several reason, those being:
1. This was a pageant in which a contestant actually gave a straight forward, non bubbleheadish, response. What a surprise.
2. The Gay Agenda is now so advanced in the US that a person actually gets basically metaphorically hooked off stage for defending traditional marriage. That’s stunning. Up until 30 years ago or so the position advanced by Perez Hilton would have been regarded as a psychological abnormality and an affliction. Now the official position obviously is that everything is okay.
3. Gays are allowed to marry, and do have the exact same rights as hetrosexuals. This point is completely lost in the news at this point. That is, marriage is between a man and a woman, and gay men can marry a woman, and vice versa, just like those of conventional sexuality.
That might seem trivial, but it isn’t. Gays will response that deprives them of the right to marry the person they love, or desire sexually, but an awful lot of straight men and women marry for reasons other than love, lust or desire. When the only qualification for a “marriage” is love alone, or lust, then the door is really open to any union involving sex as being sanctioned by the law as a “marriage”. At that point, marriage really means nothing at all.
Indeed, while I’ve never seen it debated, I almost wonder at what point those of us who believe in traditional marriages are better off having the state not recognize any marriage? That’s radical, I realize, but for those of us who believe that marriage is a sacrament, we don’t need the state to sanction it, and that spares us from having to pretend that a union based principally on homosexual sex is anything other than a union based principally on homosexual sex.
bill912, go perform a physical impossibilty on yourself. Better yet, go play Russian roulette with a fully loaded Glock/Baretta/Colt/weapon of your choice, and stop consuming the oxygen that better people deserve.
Joseph D’Hippolito,
Wow. Take a chill pill, dude. Bill was just being funny.
Paul S,
I’m with you. I think it’s a big mistake to make a beauty pageant contestant into a champion of traditional values.
Joseph D’Hippolito: I pointed out that you did exactly the same thing you criticized Tim J for doing. I did it to show that, according to the criteria you set for Tim, no one could ever criticize anyone.
“stop consuming the oxygen that better people deserve.”
god, is that you? (lower-case purposeful)
Ya know, Joseph D’Hippolito, Bill912 is a cop. Best not to talk that way to a cop. Just sayin’ 😉
You mean like so many of the gay designers of women’s runway fashions? It appears to me that many of them must hate women, or fear women.
I understand why you might think that, but as a group, having known a number of them personally and professionally, I wouldn’t say they hate or fear women any more than non-gay designers do.
bill912, perhaps if you had made the point directly instead of snarkily (and, no, I didn’t think it was funny), I would not have responded the way I did. Nevertheless, I apologize.
I wrote what I wrote to Tim Jones because I am so sick and tired of self-proclaimed “conservatives” (religious or secular) who, to paraphrase Theodore Roosevelt, always mock those who take unpopular stands “in the arena” while not bothering to take any themselves. In this case, I believed Young was criticizing Carrie Prejean because her response was not ideologically pure enough. This is a girl who isn’t out of her teens, yet, for crying out loud, not Br. Maximillian Kolbe!
Now, if I were Carrie Prejean, and Perez Hilton said what he did to me, I would have jumped off the stage and tried to castrate the bastard without the benefit of anesthesia. But that’s just little ol’ me…
This is a girl who isn’t out of her teens, yet, for crying out loud… I would have jumped off the stage and tried to castrate
Joe, she is beyond her teens already. Will she get better with age, or worse? How did it work with you? At what age do threats of violence begin/end?
“Now, if I were Carrie Prejean, and Perez Hilton said what he did to me, I would have jumped off the stage and tried to castrate the bastard without the benefit of anesthesia.”
Just to be clear now, you’re not criticizing Miss CA for not being violent enough, are you? ;-D
The Gay Agenda is now so advanced in the US that a person actually gets basically metaphorically hooked off stage for defending traditional marriage.
Heck, its worse than that – she was hooked off stage for simply not celebrating the wonderful thing that SSM is.
Got to admit though, that “Perez Hilton” is a shrewd bugger for stealing a high profile name in a way he can get away with. I think I’ll change my name to “Entonio Banderas”.
@Joseph D’Hippolito
Now, if I were Carrie Prejean, and Perez Hilton said what he did to me, I would have jumped off the stage and tried to castrate the bastard without the benefit of anesthesia.
You see, it’s because of things like this that you will never be Miss USA.
Joseph D’Hippolito wrote:
JOESEPH: THIS IS A RULE #1 WARNING.
THIS TYPE OF LANGUAGE, EVOKING CRASS VIOLENCE, INTENDED LITERALLY OR NOT, IS NOT ALLOWED. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM IT.
Obviously, Miss Prejean had two strikes against her:
1. She is young and the young, these days, have less of a sense of history (and anger about history) than in the past, in my observation, so she may not have appreciated the long history involved in this question…appreciating history gets easier as one gets older and becomes, well, a part of history.
2. She is from California. Massive indoctrination. If her answer were a three on a scale of biblical prophetic utterances, I think she should be bumped up to a four, just for being from California (no offense, Jimmy…it is a weird state).
To remedy these shortcomings in the pageant, might I humbly suggest changing the contest. This is why I think they should have the, “Really, Really, Old Miss U. S. A Pagent”.
Questioner: “What do you think of Gay Marriage?”
Miss RRO Candidate: “Eh, Sonny? What was that, Pay Marriage? Shameful…slavery…”
Questioner: “No, no…Gay Marriage, Gay…”
Miss RRO Candidate: “Gay? Oh, yes, marriage is gay. Why, my cousin, Vinnietta…”
Questioner: “No, no, Gay..as in two guys getting married…”
Miss RRO Candidate: “Two guys getting married to whom? That’s bigamy! Sonny, are you telling this national audience that you approve of bigamy? Shame on you!”
Questioners: “No, no…two guys marrying each other…”
Miss RRO Candidate: “Well…if they are both ministers and they want to be double officiaries at a double wedding, I think that’d be a great way to save energy…got to go green, you know…”
Questioner: “Oh, never mind…”
Miss RRO Candidate: “Oh, I always speak my mind…thank you for this opportunity…”
Or, perhaps, might I suggest the, “Miss Philosopher U. S. A. pageant”.
Questioner: “What do you think of gay marriages?”
Miss PUSA candidate: “Think? Which school of thought about the mind/brain problem would you like me to use to respond?”
Questioner: “Pick one…”
Miss PUSA candidate: “Well, I would like to state my own theory, so as to set the theoretical framework from which I will be responding. You see, although the problem of mind has a long history, from the Greek philosophers, Parmenides and Plato, to the present theory of self-reference in neuroscience, I think the problem can be reduced to…”
Questioner: “Marriage, marriage…try to stick to the topic, please…”
Miss PUSA candidate: “Marriage? Interesting question…at what point can two people be said to be married – when they get engaged, when they take the vows, after the honeymoon, after living together for many years? I would like to think that you can be more specific than that with you question.”
Questioner: “Look, its a simple question…what…do…you…think…about…gay …marriage…?”
Miss PUSA candidate: “Why, it seems to me that that is a bit like asking me what I think about square circles…I would like to see a constructive proof before I give a definitive answer…”
Questions: “Thank you, I think…our time is up…”
Miss PUSA candidate: “Ah, time…an interesting question…eventually, everything comes back to the question of time…”
P. S. No offense to either old people or philosophers.
The Chicken
“…that is a bit like asking me what I think about square circles…”
Love it, TMC. I’ll be steal-…uh…borrowing that line from you.
TMC,
Awesome. Just Brilliant. I daresay the only problem is that PH probably wouldn’t be so patient for his answer. ;-D
Jimmy, I understand and will heed your warning. Nevertheless. I would like to see you be as passionate about people throwing stones at a beauty-pageant contestant because her correct answer wasn’t “ideologlically correct” enough or “passionate” enough as you are about the language I use in calling out the posers who criticize her for no reason.
Perhaps he will cross that bridge when he comes to it.
Since no one has advocated stoning her, it’s a little early.
she may not have appreciated the long history involved in this question
Just like we might not appreciate her long history with this question. “My sister is a second lieutenant in the Air Force and she is a gay rights activist,” Carrie said. “She supports gay people, she supports gay marriage. My beliefs have nothing to do with my sister or my mom, or whatever.” “She has her own views,” Carrie said. “She’s a 22-year-old woman who’s in the Air Force who’s extremely educated. She debates with my dad all the time about it. That’s what’s so great about being an American — we’re able to have our own opinions.”
That gives some perspective to “in my family” [i.e. her divided family], “how I was raised” and her pro-choice preamble.
Joe D’H,
You may not agree with the reasons I gave for criticizing Miss Prejean’s response, but you can’t say I criticized her “for no reason”. Address what I actually said, if you want to, but skip the verbal hand grenades… they tend to go off in your face.
As to my being a poser, may I ask what it is I am supposed to be posing as? That might help. I don’t claim to be anything but a guy with a computer.
I have received some similar (though far kinder) criticism at my own blog,, so in the interest of clarifying I will paste in what I said over there:
“I am not saying that Carrie Prejean DIDN”T give it her best. I am pleased that she stood her ground to the extent she did. I just don’t think that what she actually said justifies her being packaged as a cultural hero or dauntless champion of family values.
I think the real story is that now, in our current state of societal decay, one puts one’s reputation and livelihood in jeopardy by making even the most timid suggestion that real, traditional marriage might be superior to gay couplings.
Even Miss Prejean’s carefully qualified, uneasy and apologetic statement – presented as only her personal opinion – drove the pro-sodomy crowd into a fury.
First they said they wanted tolerance for their point of view. Now they insist on no tolerance for any other point of view.
That didn’t take long, either.”
When I first heard about the incident, my impression was that Miss Prejean really got up on her soapbox and gave the gay marriage crowd what-for. When I actually heard and read her response, though, my reaction was, “Really?… REALLY?… THAT is what they freaked out about? THAT innocuous little statement is what led Perez Hilton to call Miss Prejean a b*tch?”
Again, I don’t think the story is Miss Prejean… it is practically everyone else involved in the pageant, and what that says about our culture. Observe how the remaining contestants in the top 5 have been falling all over themselves to praise gay marriage and make clear that they would NEVER have said ANYTHING like Carrie Prejean said.
I can hear the doors opening for them already.
Tim J., an earlier response from Dino sums up my view more eloquently than I ever could:
Despite what has been characterized as a tepid and poorly worded response to a question that probably didn’t need to be asked in the situation. this young woman is an American heroine. The gay activist with the phoney name will fade away, and few will care.
So does this response from Richly Chuuey:
But she deserves some applause and credit for even suggesting that marriage ought to be between one man and one woman. I’m very proud of her for staying true to those convictions. Fox News did a follow up interview with her … and she definitely showed conviction and guts. Considering she’s only 21 (one year younger than me) and put on the spot like that in front of national television, it’s worth commending.
Sorry, Tim J., but you can’t criticize somebody for being “tepid” and “tentative,” and offering a “poorly worded” response, then complement that same person for “standing her ground” (all are your phrases, except “poorly worded”). That’s first-class posterior covering that makes the nation’s bishops look as honest as Diogenes, by comparison.
BTW, if you don’t like verbal hand grenades, then don’t bother commenting on anything. Those VHG’s are, shall we say, occupational hazards.
And I’m speaking as a veteran of the constant warfare at Mark Shea’s blog. He has a whole arsenal of verbal hand grenades, howizters, bazookas, mortars, etc. Perhaps ATF should check him out? 😉
“you can’t criticize somebody for being “tepid” and “tentative,” and offering a “poorly worded” response, then complement that same person for ‘standing her ground’ ”
Why can’t someone be criticized for one thing and complimented for another?… or complimented for doing some good thing, but criticized for the manner in which it was done? Because you say so?
Why does she have to be either 100% heroine (and therefore beyond criticism) or 100% villain (and therefore a “b*tch”?).
You still haven’t actually addressed the substance of my post… but thanks for the heckling.
“I would like to see you be as passionate about people throwing stones at a beauty-pageant contestant because her correct answer wasn’t “ideologlically correct” enough or “passionate” enough as you are about the language I use in calling out the posers who criticize her for no reason.”
I can’t speak for Jimmy, et al, but I don’t give a darn if you champion worship of squirrel droppings, just as long as you don’t insult your opponents. That said, this is Jimmy Akin’s blog, not ours, so he can do whatever he pleases. If one doesn’t like a decision, one is free to think it wrong and then go elsewhere. Peace to ya.
That’s not to say that I condone idiocy: I just wouldn’t ban it. 🙂
OK, Tim J., this is what I think is the substance of your post: Carrie Prejean offered a “tepid” and “tentative” defense of traditional marriage that did not warrant her being lionized as a “heroine.” OTOH, she should be commended for standing up to a jerk like Perez Hilton.
Now to your comments about my comments:
You can criticize somebody for one thing and praise them for something else. But you’re criticizing the same response as “tepid” and “tentative” while praising her for “standing her ground.” This is not logical. How do people who are “tepid” and “tentative” stand their ground? If you made a mistake in your characterizations, fine; everybody makes mistakes. Nevertheless, you cannot violate the priniciple of non-contradiction by criticizing and praising the exact same act.
There is no contradiction in saying I’m glad she stood her ground, even in the tepid and tentative way she did. I’m glad she didn’t just cave altogether.
Why is it logically contradictory to say, “You did a hard job, there. Thanks. Let me tell you how you might have done it better.”
There is absolutely NO contradiction in maintaining that she gave a tepid and tentative defense of traditional marriage.
But I suggest we drop this. It’s getting tedious.
Miss California’s “ground” was a nearly 4 million square mile dance floor shared with more than 300 million people. Rather than say she “stood her ground” (which, give its size, any drunk can do), one might say she danced a pro-choice striptease, conceding to the left and to the right on national TV until she was down to only her bathing suit and high heels of personal opinion.
Tim J., it was tedious from the moment you started criticizing her.
Elison, if you’re trying to be funny, don’t.
I have to say she’s one of the few beauty contestants I’ve ever respected at all. To state an opinion instead of simply reading in the questioner’s tone what he wants to hear and repeating it must take guts, especially since she comes from the family she comes from and the part of the world she comes from. May she crystallize into a spokeswoman for truth.
Miss California USA Carrie Prejean “breached her contract” by keeping semi-nude photos a secret and could be stripped of her beauty queen title, according to state pageant spokesman Roger Neal. “When you compete for Miss California, you’re supposed to disclose whether you posed for nude or semi-nude photos because it’s grounds for disqualification,” said Neal. Prejean defended the photos which she said were taken when she was 17 years old. “No offense to anyone out there, but that’s how I was raised,” she said.