Word on the street is that B16 will release the moto proprio on the Tridentine rite of Mass on 7/7/07–so just nine days from now.
GET THE STORY.
I’d very much like to have the motu proprio released then–or sooner–but even though I’m not from Missouri, I’ll believe it when I see it.
Author: Jimmy Akin
Jimmy was born in Texas, grew up nominally Protestant, but at age 20 experienced a profound conversion to Christ. Planning on becoming a Protestant seminary professor, he started an intensive study of the Bible. But the more he immersed himself in Scripture the more he found to support the Catholic faith, and in 1992 he entered the Catholic Church. His conversion story, "A Triumph and a Tragedy," is published in Surprised by Truth. Besides being an author, Jimmy is the Senior Apologist at Catholic Answers, a contributing editor to Catholic Answers Magazine, and a weekly guest on "Catholic Answers Live."
View all posts by Jimmy Akin
Deo Gratias!
I am from Missouri, so….
About a bazillion people I know are getting married on that day. I almost hope it is not on that day so I have time to read it when it comes out. But we will see.
Anything that will make Fr. Richard McBrien cry is alright with me. Go, Benny, go!
“About a bazillion people I know are getting married on that day.”
Are they getting married in Latin?
There is widespread permission for the tridentine Rite of mass in England – but on the whole the priests don’t want it. Widening permission does not necessarily mean a wider availability. Anyway, the number of priests is diminishing, so we’ll need Mass, not retro-Mass.
Just a note, James…the FSSP which is an order that does the Tridentine Rite exclusively has packed seminaries.
Diminishing priests? Methinks this will attract more men to the priesthood.
Besides – it’s cool. 😉
–Ann
Interesting update.
Vatican confirms briefing on motu proprio; publication near
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
“We’ll need Mass, not retro-Mass”
James, the Tridentine rite of Mass is the result of centuries of organic development under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. After Vatican II, it was arbitrarily changed suddenly. Please don’t refer to the Mass of the ages as ‘retro-Mass’.
Sorry I left my name out in the above comment!
As one of the people getting married that day I am a little dissapointed I won’t get to read it until after the honeymoon. Still, what a great wedding present from the Pope! Maybe there will be a Latin mass in Reykjavik.
Isn’t this document also supposed to change, or shall I say correct, the language of many of the prayers said during the mass to more accurately reflect the Latin? ie. “Credo in unum Deum” will be translated “I believe in one God” instead of “We believe…”, and “Et cum spiritum tuo,” will be “And with your spirit,” instead of “and also with you.”
No matter where Catholics fall on their opinion of the Tridentine Rite, this demonstrates B16’s pastoral concern for his flock, and I applaud what he has done.
Does this mean the SSPX will be brought back into the fold? It is my understanding that this is the main problem SSPX has with the post-Vatican II church. Does anybody know if there are any more sticking points, or was this the only one?
And, no, I’m not starting a thread on whether SSPX is in schism, so let’s not go there. Also, I’m not starting a thread on pre- vs. post- Vatican II, so let’s not go there either. Finally, this isn’t a thread about Tridentine rite vs. Pauline rite, so can we please not go there either?
I believe the official bulletin says within a few days, so may it will be sooner.
Tim Brandenburg,
This article discusses the issues you asked about.
I also hope this thread will stay on topic.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
This is indeed great news!
However, can anybody tell me how soon will Tridentine Masses be celebrated at a nearby Parish???
Although I am very glad with this anticipated event, I don’t know if it’ll make any difference in that we may still not have a Tridentine Mass available at a local parish.
However, can anybody tell me how soon will Tridentine Masses be celebrated at a nearby Parish???
At my parish, July 8th. But not the typical parish at that. As pointed out elsewhere most catholics will be blissfuly unaware of the MP and life will go on unchanged.
I am sorry now that I forgot all the Latin I learned as a young Altar Boy. But I guess since I left the Church it doesn’t matter.
I will gladly try to relearn it if Benedict acts to encourage those who unjustly divorce to repent, with excommunication (I am not holding my breath), and at least trys to restore some reverence for marriage by example. It would show pastoral concern to we former Catholics who have left the Church due to its frontal assault on matrimony.
But people like me who make noise about these injustices and how that are really ignored by the Catholic Church are just scum and complainers to all you “good” Catholics who gladly accept these unrepentant adulterers among you with barely a whimper.
Oops, on my hobby horse of truth again.
Karl,
Make all the noise you want in the appropriate forum. Per Jimmy’s rules this thread is not that forum. Annulments and Divorce have been discussed many times on this blog. Look in the archives and comment all you want on posts discussing those issues.
Mocking Jimmy’s Hobby Horse rule is rude. Please don’t pretend you define who is a good Catholic by the issues that affect you personally. That being said I am happy that a former Catholic spends time on this blog.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
>> I will gladly try to relearn it if Benedict…
>> trys to restore some reverence for marriage by example
I’m sorry, the Pope still cannot be married.
lol.
Are they getting married in Latin?
Hopefully they are getting married in a church.
Fr. Z has an Italian article that highlights many interesting things about the MP meeting.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
7/7/07?
That is such a rumor.
Has anybody seen an “unofficial advance copy” of the motu proprio? I find it hard to believe that something hasn’t made its way to the internet. To any insider reader… cough it up already!
My question is, will there be any relevence to this decision in the US except for those who are already using it? In other words, will there be great use of this or will it be just a flash in the pan since most priests would rather not hassle with it?
This carrot has been dangling since The Holy Father’s election.
In other words, will there be great use of this or will it be just a flash in the pan since most priests would rather not hassle with it?
We won’t know until it happens. It may increase the number of Tridentine Masses right away, or it may take a while (even decades). I think this decision is meant for the long term, so that this Liturgy is preserved alongside the other Liturgies of the Church.
Jason,
I agree we have to wait and see.
I would suggest that we should be willing and ready to assist in making this happen by volunteering our time and having materials ready to help our priests teach fellow parishioners about participating in the “Mass of John XXIII”.
A priest on Fr. Z’s blog suggested that since the missal used is the 1962 approved by Blessed John XXIII it should bear his name.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
I remember that in the Tridentine Mass there was no homily but a sermon. And the priest could preach on whatever topic he wanted since the only gospel used by the rite is Matthew, so I believe, is that true? Anyway, If the priest were intelligent I wouldn’t mind, but some aren’t so well educated and I’m afraid I won’t feast at the table of the word. If so, bring back the Misa Lecta. In and out in 15 minutes.
I know that a priest in our diocese said he would start saying a Tridentine Mass on a weekly basis when the motu proprio comes out.
Aside of the dearth of priests who would like to celebrate the 1961 Ordo, there is the problem of set-up. Many churches ripped out their high altars (and side altars for that matter), threw away the missals, maniples, and other accoutrements commonly used in the 1961 Ordo Missa.
I have a young priest in this diocese who is proficient in the 1961 Ordo who is willing to teach me and I am willing to learn. My church did not throw away the 1961 Missal nor rip out its High or side Altars. They kept the burses, chalice veils (both of which we commonly use) but the maniples are long gone. However the Communion Rail is long gone and it would require a significant amount of construction (and cost) to restore them. The tabernacle sits on the HIgh Altar but juts out enough to where there is not enough mensa; although, I guess, that could be rectified with little ado.
It is not as easy as learning the rite; that is the easy and cheap part of the equation. It is the rest of it that will create enough of a problem to frighten off many cash strapped parishes (especially smaller ones with a parochial school) from re-instituting the 1961 Ordo.
In other words, will there be great use of this or will it be just a flash in the pan since most priests would rather not hassle with it?
It’s not that there may be priests out there who would care less about it; it’s about the fact that there aren’t that many priests out there who say the Tridentine Mass.
That’s why although I am very happy about the anticipated release of the MP, I am still saddened by the fact that even with it, I doubt that there’ll be a Tridentine Mass available in a local parish.
The fact of the matter is that several Catholics like me may want to attend the Tridentine Mass in a local parish; however, who will celebrate the Tridentine Mass for us? There is none.
And it’s not because priests out there could care less about the Tridentine Mass; it’s more likely because there are several of them incapable of celebrating the Tridentine Mass.
This is the reason why for almost a decade now I had to attend the Novus Ordo Missae since the last priest able to celebrate the Tridentine Mass (indult) for us in a distant parish retired.
“Just a note, James…the FSSP which is an order that does the Tridentine Rite exclusively has packed seminaries.”
Not only that but the FSSP has been giving week-long classes to NO priests interested in celebrating the Tridentine Liturgy. A dear priest friend of mine has tried to sign up for the class, but they are full! To me, that’s a good sign of interest in the TLM.
I think the main thing to cheer for in this, if it is as rumored, is that any priest can choose to celebrate with the Tridentine Mass without having to ask for permission. This will be very helpful to places where they’d LIKE to be doing so but have been shot down by some more liberal-than-thou bishop. It may also normalize those who have been kind of skimming the rules because they only feel comfortable at the Tridentine Mass, and allow legitimacy for those Masses.
However, the one thing I’m not sure it will help is those who are clearly telling the Church to go to hell because they personally infallibly know that the Tridentine Mass is the ONLY way God allows or is happy with Mass. That link to the interview with those SSPX guys was just DRIPPING with arrogance. Essentialy they were claiming the Vatican didn’t have the authority to excommunicate them when they refused obedience. And their attitude now was basically: IF you normallize the Tridentine, AND say you were wrong about the excommunications and invalidate them, then MAYBE, just maybe, we might think you’re possibly a real Pope and valid to us. Maybe.
However the Communion Rail is long gone and it would require a significant amount of construction (and cost) to restore them.
A suggestion, Fr. BP, based on practice at a parish I frequent: they do not have an altar rail, so they have a couple of kneelers that the altar boys set up for the Eucharist. They sit up front all the time, but off to the sides, and are pulled out front for the Eucharist and then put to the sides again when done.
Like this, though you may be able to find less expensive ones: http://www.leafletonline.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=550&zenid=50403a7fc22efea7232122c5ce964b3c
It lacks the style of an altar rail, but is a lot cheaper.
Jarnor23,
You think the SSPX is bad, wait ’till you get a load of the SSLI people!
The Society of St. Leo I
They ex-communicate people AND websites!
They’ve excommunicated Mark Shea’s blog, EWTN, The Knights of Columbus — not to mention, even The Vatican website!
From their website, they just wrote the following:
“I’m not so poetic with ex-communicating people like Fr. Chad and Fr. Michael are but here is the list of websites he told me to add:
St. Monica’s Kneeler, Catholic and Enjoying it!, Orthometer, Open Book, The Lion and the Cardinal, Pope Benedict XVI Fan Club, Personal Apostolic Administration of St. John Mary Vianney, Knights of Columbus, Back to Catholicism
Ladies of Charity, Why yes I do believe something actually, Adrienne’s Catholic Corner”
/a
Esau, are you sure that the Society of St. Leo I isn’t just a parody?
Of course it’s a parody. I assume it is a response to the Spirit of Vatican II parody blog.
Jimmy should be insulted that his blog isn’t on that list.
Nothing wrong with doing away with Mark Shea, he is a dictator
Viva Jimmy!
Maybe by Jimmy not being excommunicated it means he is a sedevacantist.
Dr. Eric & FRBP:
I’m not trying to be negative. I am all for the use of the Tridentine Mass, but I think the impact in the Us will be small, sadly. Do the priests we have even know Latin?
I do like that at least it will be an option, and really, a vendication for those who use it presently.
I am hoping that it will make a bigger impact than what I think, but I am skeptical… I can’t help but be.
Joey,
I remember that in the Tridentine Mass there was no homily but a sermon. And the priest could preach on whatever topic he wanted since the only gospel used by the rite is Matthew, so I believe, is that true? Anyway, If the priest were intelligent I wouldn’t mind, but some aren’t so well educated and I’m afraid I won’t feast at the table of the word. If so, bring back the Misa Lecta. In and out in 15 minutes.
Posted by: Joey | Jun 28, 2007 12:25:51 PM
I’m not sure the difference between a homily and a sermon. But what normally happens is that the priest will expand on the readings of the day, and then preach a moral lesson, sometimes tied to the readings, or to contemporary events. That is no different than the current practice as allowed and prescribed by the rubrics.
It seems odd that you claim to have experience with the Traditional Mass and yet are ignorant of the fact that it contains readings from all of the Gospels at various times during the year (even the ones with (“hard teachings”).
As to the abuse of 15 minute masses, that was a problem for weekday masses by some priests, but I doubt it was as widespread as the abuses which occur routinely on Sundays in the Novus Ordo. Furthermore, the TLM as it’s practiced today is free from such abuses, because priests with no respect for liturgy only say the Novus Ordo in vernacular, and so enjoy being the center of attention that they will stretch the mass out as long as possible, but enlist 17 extraordinary ministers to get that annoying communion thing done as quickly as possible.
God Bless,
Matt
I think the impact will be great in some places, more gradual in others. I know in our diocese (Galveston-Houston) the bishop refuses to allow anything but Sunday 8am for the indult. No feast days, no “prime-time”, no special commemorations like anniverseries etc. This change would allow additional masses when there is a priest available and a congregation of at least 30 desires it.
I also know that 2 priests from a non-indult parish have just completed training by the FSSP, while I don’t know what their intention is, clearly they will be wanting to celebrate at least on occasion. There are other parishes where the Novus Ordo is regularly celebrated in Latin, and there may be some inclination to “experiment” with having the TLM there.
God Bless,
Matt
JACKPOT!
http://whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/
Whereas I’m not gonna read leaked sources out of respect for Papal timing, I am VERY curious to see how this document will help those TLM people whose bishops hate the TLM and want to crush it.
“…the FSSP which is an order that does the Tridentine Rite exclusively has packed seminaries.”
Ann,
I know the FSSP very well. By last count, they still have only two seminaries: one of which is the original foundation in Germany. This kind of belies what you say about demand for the Tridentine Mass. If the FSSP is fighting off vocations, then why no more seminaries . . . anywhere . . . not even in that bastion of Tradition, France?
I guess one could say that their seminaries are “packed” in the same way that busby hat-makers are “busy.” Since they’re one of the few Traditionalist outfits in the Church, it’s not surprising they have a lot of vocations — and, yet, not a lot, considering the millions of Catholics in America and Europe.
There is a very simple reason for the scarcity of priests able to celebrate the Tridentine Mass. The passage of time since it has been licit to do so.
The Tridentine Mass was suppressed in 1965, following the conclusion of the Second Vatican Council. No priest ordained after 1965 would have any experience in saying the Tridentine Mass and no reason to learn how to do so.
A priest ordained in 1965 would be no younger than 66 today, and anyone ordained prior to that year would be older. So, no priest 65 or younger can reasonably be expected to have any familiarity with the Tridentine Mass!
I think what Rome was planning on, is that interest in the Tridentine Mass would fade away, as its adherents got older and eventually died.
That did not happen. I recently attended a Tridentine Mass in Phoenix, Arizona, and there were at least 300 people in attendance. Some of them were young married couples in their 20’s with children. It will be awhile before interest in the Tridentine Mass dies out.
I believe that anyone who finds comfort and solace in it should be allowed to have it. It was good enough for almost 400 years. Reforms were necessary, but that is no reason to outlaw the Tridentine Mass completely, especially now.
Another point that needs to be made, and to which some bloggers have referred, it has been permissible to celebrate the Tridentine Mass at least since 1984, pursuant to the special indult granted by Pope John Paul II. The problem, however, was that implementation of the indult in a specific diocese required the approval of the Bishop, and some of them were hostile to the Tridentine Mass.
One example of that was Thomas O’Brien, the former bishop of the Diocese of Phoenix, Arizona. He claimed that he did not have the priest to spare to say the Tridentine Mass.
Well, it turned out that Thomas O’Brien was a major hypocrite. The Diocese of Phoenix has acknowledged that O’Brien reshuffled pedophile priests from one parish to another. The coup de grace came in 2003, when O’Brien was involved in a hit-and-run accident that involved a fatality and then resisted the effort of police to contact him. He became the first U.S. Catholic bishop to be convicted of a felony, and he resigned in disgrace (although it took them three hours to persuade him to sign the necessary documents).
His successor (Thomas Olmstead) finally authorized the use of the Tridentine Mass.
The restoration of the Tridentine Mass indeed must be of the Holy Spirit to overcome the intransigence of a corrupt felon like O’Brien.
Bishop O’Brien was an embarrassment to the Catholic Church. But let us not forget that his right hand man in this diocese, “Father” Dale Fusek, was busted for inviting young boys to join him, naked, in the rectory hot tub. “Father” Dale was also the founder of the scandalous Life Teen program. We here in Phoenix have been at “ground zero” of the Vatican II renewal!