When was the last time you did something you knew would make you world famous?
The Virginia Tech shooter knew. He understood the importance of a multi-media approach. He sent a package off to NBC with the absolute assurance that within a couple of days his image, his name, his rambling thoughts would be inescapable… a pervasive, 24-7, continuous loop of streaming video. He knew from that day on his exploits would be "up there" with Columbine, Oklahoma City, the Unabomber. There would be books. The pundits would be miked-up and the klieg lights turned on. There would be documentaries about his life… about him… not some rich kid, not a politician or entertainer… but him.
Where’s Imus now? Where’s Anna Nicole?
When notoriety and stuff are the highest values in a culture, there are those who don’t respond well if they happen to feel they have been left out of that picture. If they are mentally unbalanced to begin with, there might be the makings for a perfect storm of vanity, resentment and rage, and no internal mechanism to stop it.
And there will inevitably follow people who feel the need to figure the whole thing out. How did this happen? Why? Who’s fault is it? Can’t we pass a law, fund a program to prevent this in the future? Let’s get started on that.
I saw Dennis Miller last night, talking to Bill O’Reilly, and he had a point of view so similar to my own that the simplest thing is just to link to the video. In short, he is not interested in fixing blame, or in promoting a particular view of the tragedy. He is just – as best he can – trying to "mourn with those who mourn". O’Reilly attempts to pull him into a gun control debate ala Rosie O’Donnell, but Miller gives it a pass. He gives Rosie a pass, and points out, I think with a kind of weary wisdom, that in times like this, people will generally seek shelter in familiar templates. They will cling to whatever grid they happen to see through. They will think aloud and give knee-jerk responses.
In short, Miller was graceful. He was human, and he let everyone else be human, too. He said that, rather than trying to analyze the event for the cameras, about the only thing he felt like doing was shooting hoops with his kids.
Probably a good instinct, there. I like Miller.
Love your families. Keep them close. Pray.
Here’s the Miller video (FOX).
Mourning with those who mourn…exactly. We rush to “fix” things everytime something like this happens, hoping that this time we will get enough cameras or layer on enough procedures or sacrifice enough scapegoats that it won’t happen again. It will happen again. Plain and simple: evil is real and our hope is in the Lord.
Fr. Philip, OP
http://hancaquam.blogspot.com
Instead of shooting hoops with the kids,how about praying the Holy Rosary,and hearing Holy Mass.A lot more efficacious for souls and perfect for the grieving process.
Eternal rest grant unto them
O Lord
And let Perpetual Light
Shine Upon them
May their souls
and all the souls of the faithful Departed
Through the Mercy of God
Rest in Peace.
Amen.
God bless you.
Dan, why not do both? There is nothing wrong with spending a little time burning off stress with physical activity. Any activity can be done prayerfully, including shooting hoops with your kids.
Tim J, well said.
(I cringed when I saw a three-page story at MSNBC.com with a prominent link at the bottom of each page reading “Discuss: What do you think of Cho’s manifesto?” I can’t help thinking gratifying Cho would have found that. Just think, if he’d only posted his videos on YouTube, he wouldn’t be getting a tenth of all this attention.)
Not to mention that I have no clue about Miller’s religous affiliation so for him praying the Roasary or going to Mass might be a strange thing to expect. He did say he was praying.
OF COURSE we should all be praying and going to Mass and some Eucharistic Adoration wouldn’t hurt, either.
I love the Rosary and find it a great weapon, but I understand there are those who don’t find in it what I do and who prefer other prayers. More power to ’em.
The idea is, cherish your families and all those you love. Miller apparently likes to do that with a basketball sometimes.
It’s very human to try and make unreasoning -reasonable.
The Rosary and prayerful baketball are fine.
But anyone can and should pray the rosary.The blessed Mother wants Catholics and protestants to pray the rosary.It is the most effective weapon to fight despair,sadness and anger.
If Mr Miller does not know how to pray it I can teach him.
Does anyone have his contact number or E-mail?
God bless you.
He understood the importance of a multi-media approach. He sent a package off to NBC with the absolute assurance that within a couple of days his image, his name, his rambling thoughts would be inescapable… a pervasive, 24-7, continuous loop of streaming video.
Amazing how the Media has, without any hesitation whatsoever, yielded to the very wishes of this demented creep!
Bad enough that he took the lives of several individuals (unconscionably MURDERED them for the very purpose of such NOTORIETY, it seems) and caused such PAIN to their families and loved ones (that will last MORE than just a LIFETIME!); but to actually witness how the Media has, in fact, accomodated (and even RESPECTED) his very demands and wishes is simply outrageous!
Even more, I can’t believe those OPPORTUNISTS that have come forward, in the guise of experts and such, whose only purpose, it seems is — not to help out the suffering victims of the tragedy, mind you — but for the purpose of sheer aggrandizement and self-promotion!
In short, Miller was graceful. He was human, and he let everyone else be human, too.
Unfortunately, it often seems that Dennis Miller is underappreciated by most folks.
First, let me add my prayers and sympathy to those at VT. As a college student, I can only imagine how tragic and disturbing this would be had it happened on my campus. May the Lord’s judgement be swift and his mercy boundless.
And Dan…
Come on! This guy responds to a tragedy by saying he wants to spend some time wih his kids and you jump on his back about not saying a rosary or praying with them more! How do you know he doesn’t pray with them? Thank God there’s a father out there who still sees playing with his kids a worthy thing to do.
First let me say my prayers are with the families of the victims. My prayers are for mercy on the dead. My prayers are for others who may respond to the pressures of society who may act out in the same way that they may receive healing and Grace to stop their plans.
Second, Dennis Miller was raised a Catholic and I guess when he goes to church he goes to a Catholic Church. (I’m not commenting on his Mass attendance frequency as I don’t know whether he goes once a day or only 3 times a year on the “Big Three.”)
Third I don’t pray the Rosary either, I read the Bible, pray with my kids, and pray the various Akathist Hymns.
Let’s not try to push our favorite devotions which are based on private revelations on each other shall we.
With fear and trepidation at precipitating a righteous flame war:
Marian devotion is obligatory. We must all of us love our mother.
The rosary is warmly commended to all Catholics and all Christians. I pray it daily with my family. But particular devotional forms, the rosary included, are not matters of “should.”
No precept in any magisterial source, papal teaching document, catechism, code of canon law, or comparable source which imposes any sort of duty to pray the rosary, AFAIK.
Something to this effect may certainly have been said in connection with some apparition or other, but then private revelation itself carries no weight of obligation. That’s why it’s private.
I believe that the Blessed Mother wants Catholics praying the rosary, but I cannot see that there is reason to say she (or her Son) is less pleased with Catholics who for whatever reason choose to honor her in other ways.
One can be a perfectly devout, loyal and obedient Catholic and go straight to heaven at death without ever praying the rosary. The rosary is a wonderful aid, but the Church is full of wonderful aids. It’s the Church’s business to tell Catholics what we ought to do.
(Again: I pray the rosary daily.)
For mass murderers and terrorists, I wish they would just mention the crime / attack and move one. Giving them all of this personal attention just fuels the fires of imitators that crave the publicity.
Kris, if you’re fairly new, Dan generally means well, but doesn’t know how to stand in another’s shoes. So I’ve learn to see Dan’s posts for how he would respond to any given situation and just leave it at that.
Nothing like taking a horror and turning it into a debate on the best way to grieve. Sheesh.
Mary Kay–
Thanks for the insight. I’ve been a lurker here at JA.org for quite a while but rarely comment. I find the wisdom here often far surpasses my own. I will say your posts are always insightful and a pleasure to read.
In my bulletin column this Sunday, I take a different approach.
“We are all appalled at the awful murders at Virginia Tech. I’m sure that there is not a single parishioner who has not offered a prayer for the victims and their families. As I write this column on Wednesday morning, details about the life of the shooter are coming to light. He was apparently a troubled young man, isolated from all his peers, and angry at life. While very few pick up guns to aim at other people, we may well ask why there are so many angry and isolated people in our society. We seem, as a people, to permit, or even encourage, fits of anger and incivility. We can all see this. Driving on the highway, listening to talk radio, hearing the lyrics of some popular music, watching news programs, reading the letters to the local paper – in these and in many other places we encounter men and women whose voices are raised, whose fists are clenched, and who seem intent on blaming others. There is very little we can do about the rage of other people. But we can look inward, and try to see ourselves clearly. What sort of language do we use? What sort of thoughts do we encourage within ourselves? Do we assume other people have bad intentions? Do we judge others rashly, or unnecessarily? Do we allow our passions to get the best of us? Are we courteous and civil? Or are we rude, or even hostile? Do we radiate anger even when our mouths are closed?
We live in an angry society. But we do not need to be angry ourselves. We do not need to cooperate with it; we can refuse to give in to it. We can lower our own voice. We can decide not to meet angry words with more angry words. Hostility does not need to be met with hostility. We need not return insult for insult, judgment for judgment, gossip for gossip. We can pray for those who are angry. We have an obligation as Christians to resist this part of ourselves and our culture. And at the cost of our souls, we cannot give bad example to our children. Perhaps we should all spend some time thinking prayerfully about the words of the prayer attributed to St. Francis:
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.
Precisely, Father.
We can’t really control “society” except through the decisions we make regarding OUR OWN behavior. That will have more influence than anything.
This would certainly (I would think) accomplish a great deal more than griping about tight skirts and video games.
Thanks.
Kris,
I realize there are many Catholic types of prayer aimed at the grief stricken,and us who are sympathetic,but the Holy Rosary is for everyone,the most powerful prayer of the Gospel that we have.
Mary Kay I am not being selfish when I say this. Wouldn’t you want others as well as yourself to have access to the most efficacious prayer around?
The prayers of the Rosary are unmatched,accept for Holy Mass,in the grace’s it showers down on us like dew from heaven.
God bless you,and the parents of the gunman.
Kris –
“I find the wisdom here often far surpasses my own.”
The wisdom of silence is highly underrated.
“Katy”
One of my big problems with this whole tragedy is the fact that the media have provided for this disturbed man the platform he sought… he exploits his victims, he exploits the media, they exploit him AND his victims (God grant rest to them all) AND us.
He has the excuse of being insane. The media do not.
I am dead set against providing for this man (or any other like minded anti-social wannabe) a megaphone for his posthumous ravings. It feeds the problem and helps no one.
Unless you have some overriding point to make – and that you can explain rationally – do not post quotes from his incoherent “manifesto” on this thread any longer. I will delete them. If necessary, I will close the comments.
Now, do you have anything real to say?
I find the wisdom here often far surpasses my own.
Kris, so do I. It’s one reason I keep coming back. For your next sentence, thanks 🙂
Dan, this is to be taken gently, but where do you think I said you were selfish? Where do you read into my post anything for or against the rosary?
Read my post again. I said that you generally mean well. True? And I said that you don’t know how to put yourself in others’ shoes. Your posts say how you would respond to a given situation. But people are different and what’s best for you might not be best for them. That’s like a blind spot for you. That’s all my post says, okay?
Katy, I’m assuming those quotes are from Cho as I haven’t read any of it yet. While I think it was incredibly insensitive and tacky to air that so soon and killing 32 people is horrific, it would be of value to read that at some point.
One of my big problems with this whole tragedy is the fact that the media have provided for this disturbed man the platform he sought…
He has the excuse of being insane. The media do not.
EXACTLY!
As expressed previously, I cannot stand the fact that the Media actually accomodated and, therefore, respected the wishes of this murderous fiend!
This will only serve as ‘inspiration’ to those who might commit similar acts in order to achieve similar notoriety!
Yet, whether or not this particular individual was actually insane, that’s still to be decided.
There are gangbangers who have similar thoughts, commit similar actions (though, arguably, not on this grand scale), and produced similar work as this scoundrel; yet, I don’t think they’re insane — they know exactly what horrendous actions they’re committing!
Tim J, the media are certainly being exploitive. And certainly this is much, much too soon, but not be too hard on Katy.
This soon when the pain (for everyone) is at its most raw, the only helpful thing to do is to deal with the pain. Praying, talking, hoops.
But when the pain heals somewhat, for those who can, it could be helpful to read what Cho wrote. It is pain that many feel, but only some are aware of. As a society or even as Christians, too often we don’t deal with that pain. That level is not for everyone to deal with, but God is always trying to stretch our capacity to love, which means taking in some of the pain that others carry.
My two cents.
“I’m assuming those quotes are from Cho… it would be of value to read that at some point.”
I don’t really know that it would, except to a professional (forensic psychologist, or some such). At any rate, now is not the time unless there is some actual point that just can’t be made otherwise. His family must be unspeakably grieved to see him this way, not to mention the families of those he shot.
I know that he presents himself as a victim, but that is more than we know, and I did not like the insinuation (of the particular quotes I deleted) that maybe someone HAD IT COMING. That, to me, is out of bounds, and since I happen to be Emperor of this particular thread, I removed them.
and since I happen to be Emperor of this particular thread
When did I or Tsar Dr. Eric impart such authority on you? 😉
Yeah, what he said!
Yeah, what he said!
… and with those IMMORTAL Words came forth the unending TYRANNY of Ericosivich “Katolykyj”, RUTHLESS Tsar of JA.O! ;^)
Esau,
The -vich suffix means son of.
I would be Tsar Eric Garovich.
“Katolykyj” is The Catholic like “Isabella La Catolica.”
…And that’s one to grow on.
😉
The -vich suffix means son of.
Thanks for the info, Tsar Eric Garovich, Always August!!
Probably a good instinct, there. I like Miller.
“I’m pro-gay marriage and pro-choice, but nobody wants to hear all that.”
— Dennis Miller
Fine. I said I liked the guy, I didn’t say I agreed with everything he said.
Believe it or not, I have actually had friends – with whom I hung out socially – who disagreed with me on any number of issues. I have made beer with a New-Ager, ridden motorcycles with an agnostic and talked art with plenty of atheists.
Miller seems like someone I could actually converse with. Now, if he’s in fact a pro-abort/pro-gay marriage Catholic then he has some serious problems, but that doesn’t invalidate anything he said about Virginia Tech, which is what we’re talking about.
Believe it or not, I have actually had friends – with whom I hung out socially – who disagreed with me on any number of issues.
I only hang-out with folks who are 100% Pro-Life! ;^P
… and only vote for folks who are as pure as Jesus Christ! ;^p
I don’t take anything Dennis Miller says seriously. Like he says, “I’m a comedian, for God’s sake!” If I find myself agreeing with him, I have to stand back and laugh.
Esau,
You don’t vote for a Tsar.
o;^)
(Halo)
Dr. Eric, how do you do rolled eyes? 🙂
Mary Kay,
I don’t know, I wish this comment board had some smiley guys sometimes. :^) (Esau smiley)
You don’t vote for a Tsar.
EXACTLY!
That’s why I found your appeal for our votes for you as Tsar in the other thread particularly ridiculous (not to mention, annoying)!
;^)
Ah, but Esau, he did redeem himself by granting me a considerable duchy. Go easy on the guy! 😉
That’s why I found your appeal for our votes for you as Tsar in the other thread particularly ridiculous
Then you missed my original post which started this whole Emperor / Tsar / Duchy tomfoolery.
I stated that I was running for president of the U.S., but that my platform consisted of spinning off part of the U.S. as a sovereign nation, abdicating the U.S. presidency, and declaring myself Emperor of that nation.
So, you didn’t vote for an Emperor (or Tsar) — you voted for a president who turned out to be a despotic power hungry stooge.
Ah, but Esau, he did redeem himself by granting me a considerable duchy.
Yeah — you did — but all I got was this lousy t-shirt that reads:
“I Voted Eric Garovich for Tsar — why you have to vote for a Tsar, I do not know — but all I got was this ugly t-shirt”
(actually, the line above was so long, you’d have to read it from front-to-back! ;^) )
Great post, Tim. Unfortunately the Fox video won’t work for me.
My thought, which you touched on, is that all this attention is probably exactly what this guy wanted. It almost seems we are rewarding him by presenting his message to the world and airing even just clips of his video.
On the other hand the attention is inevitable and perhaps we can learn from it. Also wherever he is I imagine he can derive no peasure from the attention today, but still it somewhat seems like we’re rewarding him.
It almost seems we are rewarding him
I don’t see how we can reward or punish him. He is dead.
What bothers me about the airing of his “manifesto” is 1.) the possibility of a copy-cat act and 2.) the disrespect it shows to the family and friends of the victims.
J.R. Stoodley is actually right in saying:
“My thought, which you touched on, is that all this attention is probably exactly what this guy wanted. It almost seems we are rewarding him by presenting his message to the world and airing even just clips of his video.”
… when you consider the fact that this was exactly what he wanted.
This is actually why I made my remarks above which referred to how the media actually accomodated (and, therefore, wrongfully showed respect for) the very wishes of this murderer.
Another thought.
I was surprised to hear of the big response from the South Korean government, which is afraid of anti-Korean and racist sentiment being generated in America. Also I had dinner with a South Korean yesterday and she brought up to the whole group that she thought South Korea had a bad image now.
How could anyone judge a whole nation on the action of just one of its citizens, much less a citizen who had spent most of his life in America? It just doesn’t make sense to me why this would even be a concern. I hope its just people being paranoid, thinking Americans are far stupider and biased than they really are, but perhaps some of us really are that bad.
I for one had a South Korean pastor for most of my childhood, back in my Methodist days. He was very conservative for a United Methodist pastor (meaning he was an actual Christian in beliefs and basic morality)and really was instrumental in forming the base of my Christian faith. Recently the church got another South Korean pastor because they specifically asked for one, since the white American pastor they had in the interim was horrible and the Korean Methodists in general seem to be a bit more solid in faith. I don’t know him so well but he’s certainly a nice guy.
All the other South Koreans I’ve known, from the two I went to grade school with to the one I was talking to yesterday have been nice, normal people. The attack doesn’t even seem to have been based on any kind of specifically Korean philosophy anyway. Would anyone really decide they hate or mistrust Koreans because of this?
How could anyone judge a whole nation on the action of just one of its citizens, much less a citizen who had spent most of his life in America? It just doesn’t make sense to me why this would even be a concern.
Reality-Check, Mr. Stoodley —
When people see Middle-Eastern American Citizens, don’t some folks wrongly mis-judge them as being terrorists?
Also, remember in World War II when Japanese American civilians were actually gathered up and quarantined?
The difference is that terrorist acts have a lot of support in the Middle East and are derrived from a religious philosophy that is prominent in the region and even may Arab-Americans
In the case of the Japanese it was that the actual nation of Japan attacked us and native-born Americans were understandibly concerned about whether Japanese-Americans were more loyal to Japan or America.
In this case though its just a dumb, probably crazy kid raised mostly in America but who happens to have been born in South Korea. That’s very different and I can’t see how anyone could be stupid enough to project his actions onto other Koreans.
“It just doesn’t make sense to me why this would even be a concern.”
Perhaps a variation of the Oriental sense of Family Honor (as alien as that concept may be to Westerners)?
J.R. Stoodley:
It’s an inescapable fact (unfortunately) that people actually do GENERALIZE folks based on the actions of a single (or even group) of individual(s).
That’s very different and I can’t see how anyone could be stupid enough to project his actions onto other Koreans.
His classmates laughed, pointed at him and said: “Go back to China.”
This will not overshadow the Supreme Court ruling against partial birth abortion.
In this case though its just a dumb, probably crazy kid raised mostly in America but who happens to have been born in South Korea. That’s very different and I can’t see how anyone could be stupid enough to project his actions onto other Koreans.
In the US? We’d find it rude. In RoK? They have a habit of taking the actions of one as the actions of the whole.
(Navy, visited twice, land fall once, got LOTS of lectures and lots of presentations of how the actions of a single one would be used against ALL Americans.)
I think it may be a cultural thing– just like the polite part of the US’s horror of even considering that ethnic stuff is relivant is kinda cultural. ;^)
Mary Kay,
You said earlier,that I do not know how to stand in anothers shoes.This means that I only know how to stand in my own shoes which seems to me to be saying that I am only aware of what is good for mySELF.
I do know what is good and right for myself,through the teachings of Holy Mother Church;Her Sacred Tradition,Magisterial Teaching and Sacred Scripture.But this same truth applies to all human beings of any creed or non creed,be they pro-death,or pro-gay as I have heard Mr.Miller is.
The Holy Rosary is for everyone,in every instance,crisis,stalemate or peace.
The Rosary will beat down Satan,raise up the terrified and disheartened and drive out personal animosity,always.
Not a living one of us can do better,save the Mass,by the Triune Godhead and The Second Persons Mother,than praying this weapon.
God bless you.
The rosary is for everyone and for every situation, but that doesn’t mean it’s for each person in each situation. For example, the rosary is for Dennis Miller’s kids and the rosary is for coping with the VT murders. But if Dennis Miller’s kids have never prayed the rosary then going home and praying the rosary with them would probably not be better than a family bonding activity that they commonly do with their dad (shooting hoops). I think that’s what Mary Kay was trying to say by not putting yourself in their shoes.
Brian, thanks, yes that was what I was trying to say.
Dan, I agree with you about that prayer the rosary is powerful. For myself, I have a strong personal preference for the rosary and pray five decades every day.
Other people I know pray the chaplet associated with Divine Mercy and that’s what they turn to at times like this.
Still others find it helpful to run off some energy first, something I can easily see parents doing with kids. That doesn’t mean that they take it any less seriously. Or that they have less of a connection with God.
It’s good when you say that you find the rosary helpful. But it’s not up to you to say that someone is handling their grief the wrong way and they should pray the rosary when you think they should pray it.
There’s a 12 step saying of “Let go and let God.” For you, that means letting God take care of those grieving. He knows what they need far better than you or I do.
Dan,
I understand that the Rosary is great devotion as my family prays it daily. But if I tried to get my Southern Baptist sister-in-law and her family to pray it, I think it would have adverse effects. They aren’t ready for it because they have Mary issues. That doesn’t mean we don’t try to charitably evangelize in small ways, but right now, they aren’t there yet.
Sometimes plowing through harshly demanding that everyone pray a certain way and not gently evangelizing does nothing but separate people even more.
Mind you, my family prays the Rosary every day and sees great value in it.
Dan, I think the key is dealing with people where they are, rather than where you think they should be. For example many converts take a long time to come to terms with Mary, but I’m sure she doesn’t mind the wait. Forcing the rosary on them before they have come to terms with Mary’s role will do more harm than good.
Dan, playing basketball with your kids as a bonding activity is an act of Christian love. The selfless sharing of yourself with your kids is a way of revealing God’s love to them. It’s not the same as the rosary or as great as the rosary, but its still a medium for connecting with God. You may be in danger of coming close to saying something like we should pray a rosary with the hungry instead of giving them food.
I am speaking objectively about the rosary and it being the most powerful prayer other than Holy Mass to combat sin in ourselves and therefore the world.
We must constantly evangalize those who are outside of the Church,and urge them with Christ’s guidance to pray the rosary.
My wife and I have taught the rosary to atheist Buddhists and they are occasionally praying the rosary.They have started attending a Christian protestant church and do so with regularity having given up atheism and their version of Buddhism.This is a good first step.
We have,with Gods Grace,taught the rosary to a Baptist minister who is 90 years old and he now joins us in praying it.
With Divine assistance this monumental salutary prayer can be prayed by all.
I was not saying that the way others pray is wrong.I am saying,rather,that why not take advantage of the best way to pray.
Who,if he had a choice between garnets and sapphires would chose the former.
God bless you.
Dan, the very large, huge, difference between the examples of teaching the rosary you gave and this week is in your examples the people were not trying to deal with the raw pain of this week’s carnage.
If you can’t see the difference, then perhaps you should include that as a prayer intention that God show you that difference.
We must constantly evangalize those who are outside of the Church,and urge them with Christ’s guidance to pray the rosary.
Dan:
I wanted to not engage in this, knowing already your viewpoints.
But I just wanted to say that there’s a difference between urging folks to practice such beliefs and actually imposing such beliefs on another.
I, myself, pray the Rosary.
However, it’s NOT the only means by which to devote one’s self to Christ.
This things will come more and more…
Till we realize that the punishments told by Our Lady have began…
But it should be an essential piece (the Rosary)
But it should be an essential piece (the Rosary)
The Rosary is only one form of devotion.
I am speaking objectively about the rosary and it being the most powerful prayer other than Holy Mass to combat sin in ourselves and therefore the world.
Dan, your first post was: “Instead of shooting hoops with the kids,how about praying the Holy Rosary,and hearing Holy Mass.” That’s a pretty specific statement rather than an objective one. No one’s debating the grace that comes from praying the rosary. If you had said “In addition to…” and not “Instead of…” this thread would have died long ago.
Dan, your first post was: “Instead of shooting hoops with the kids,how about praying the Holy Rosary,and hearing Holy Mass.”
Exactly!
Thank-you Brian!
That’s where, I think, Dan may be imposing what he thinks is the right course of action on folks rather than merely suggesting it.
But Our Lady in Fatima did not ask for the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy nor ask to read the Bible to save mankind from terrible punishments.
None of these. The Rosary was.
When man was bad and then began to pray the Rosary, they converted and things got better.
But now the world is not only not Catholic, it is anti-Catholic and it does not pray the Rosary.
Sodom has nothing on us…
That is true, you can’t impose things…
And you can’t entirely convince…
Grace is everything.
But Our Lady in Fatima did not ask for the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy nor ask to read the Bible to save mankind from terrible punishments.
None of these. The Rosary was.
I can say the same thing about the apparition and the Rosary — NONE of these things were in the Bible.
This things will come more and more…
Till we realize that the punishments told by Our Lady have began…
Uh? The punishments foretold by Our Lady began in 1917. It’s not like the past century was all happy and peaceful, and now school shooters are introducing the first note of violence.
And the Bible is not the only source of Revelation, as you know.
And the Bible does not say anything about the Bible! ;>
No, Our Lady in Fatima didn’t ask us to pray the Divine Mercy chaplet.
Our Lord himself did that. To St. Faustina. As a vehicle of His grace and mercy.
Teaching the rosary to Buddhists might actually be easier than teaching it to Baptists, as the latter actively (albeit incorrectly) believe that Marian devotion is pagan.
And I would choose garnets over sapphires, both because I prefer them and because they’re my birthstone. 🙂 Now, if you said PEARLS… 😉
Oops, that was me about the ‘punishments’
But the worst punishments have not come.
Anihalation of countries have not come.
The 3 dark days that many saints spoke about have not come.
In essence, this evil dominated world is still very much alive.
But not for long.
And the Bible is not the only source of Revelation, as you know.
There’s a BIG difference between PUBLIC revelation and PRIVATE revelation.
PRIVATE revelation is not binding on the Faithful.
Xavier, there’s nothing about three dark days in Fatima. Shame on you for bringing in three dark days when you should be praying the rosary!
This is just following your logic, mind you.
Not take away from the Chaplet (I have a sort of “no” with it because many progressivists and modernists pray it {Charismatics…} and replace it with the Rosary, {lazy bums!}) but it was not key in the general state of the world.
The Rosary has and is, and will be.
Man has not prayed, so the chastisementwill come.
Xavier:
But Our Lady in Fatima did not ask for the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy nor ask to read the Bible to save mankind from terrible punishments.
None of these. The Rosary was.
When man was bad and then began to pray the Rosary, they converted and things got better.
But now the world is not only not Catholic, it is anti-Catholic and it does not pray the Rosary.
So when was it that man began to pray the Rosary, converted and things got better? What *date* are you talking here?
The 3 dark days that many saints talked about!
Esau I am just trying to break that femalish (hey just saying the truth, we have our own) defect of wanting to be the best and I am never wrong.
I am not saying anything in contrary, I just wanted to break that spirit you were acting in.
Got me?
replace it with the Rosary, {lazy bums!})
Xavier:
Are you then saying that it’s better that these folks do not have any devotion at all if it’s not the Rosary?
Esau I am just trying to break that femalish (hey just saying the truth, we have our own) defect of wanting to be the best and I am never wrong.
Ever heard the saying, give a man enough rope and he’ll hang himself?
*applauds Xavier for proving the truth of it*
Eileen R,
I give you several examples later I got to go.
But I’ll leave you at this.
The History of Mankind has always been line diamonds and circles.
Mankind starts off a point, growing in faith and virtue and then it hits an appex and evil is able to begin a decadence, like the next part of the diamond, till it is about to reach a point where indescribable things are happening.
Then God, eternal, like a circle, has no begining and not end, intervenes, and the diamond comes again.
This last Diamond will reach horrors and is reaching horrors, so much that the Circle must intervene.
Soon.
O <> O <> O <> O <> O <> O <> O <> O <> O
Xavier, you’re a misogynist. You’d better repent of that before you judge other people.
Eileen,
Men have worst defects right now.
They lose their moral preservation faster…
They live for pleasure and nothing else…
So on and so on…
But be content Eileen, in that Man desired and did commit Deicide and killed Our Lord.
Woman was the only one who did not, and stood by Our Lord at all times, even when the Apostoles did not.
The Rosary is, objectively speaking,the best prayer other than holy mass,bar none.
This does not mean that other Church approved or personal prayer will not have great effect, just that Our Lady commanded us to pray the rosary regularly.It really helps the family as well as the individual during personal and national tragedy better than anything else.
God bless you
Folks, I hate to say it but when a person has given himself over to superstitious fetishes, there is no reasoning with him. It would be the same as trying to reason with me if I claimed that, “St. John the Baptist appeared to me and told me that the world will be destroyed in 5 years if I don’t pray the ‘Our Father’ 12 times per month in honor of the 12 apostles.” That a person would make an alleged apparition of a saint the whole basis of his spirituality shows that he is not thinking clearly.
Am not!
The old good books for confessors speak about how you must adapt and work with the different psycologies of Man and Woman, and get rid of the tendencial defects of both.
The Cardinal preaching to the Pope right now had said that the evil in the world is making man effaminate and woman masculine in the bad sense.
There are real differences among us.
But they are not nessecarily bad, they are harmomious.
Dan,
What objective evidence can you give that shows that the Rosary is the best prayer (second to the Mass). The ancient fathers of the Church would have preferred the “Jesus Prayer.” Our Lord seemed to prefer the Our Father.
And who just judged who Eileen?! 😉
Xavier, what you’re saying is pure nonsense.
I am just trying to break that femalish (hey just saying the truth, we have our own) defect of wanting to be the best and I am never wrong.
To ascribe that trait to women is indicative of a deep-seated antagonism towards women ie. misogyny. Particularly in an argument where you’re trying to prove that *you* are in the right.
It comes across very much as if your issue with women is that they don’t do what men like you tell them to.
Xavier:
I have no idea where you’re going with in regards to the diamond/circle thingy or even where you got that from — though your drawing made for an interesting aesthetic.
Dan:
This does not mean that other Church approved or personal prayer will not have great effect, just that Our Lady commanded us to pray the rosary regularly.It really helps the family as well as the individual during personal and national tragedy better than anything else.
I don’t think anybody here is actually saying that the Rosary doesn’t have such great effect for those who practice it — only that it shouldn’t be shoved down people’s throats.
Nope.
And I think you missunderstood the “I am never wrong”
It was part of the list of defects.
But since you are characterizing the defects,
I will do the only thing that will get you to stop being unreasonable..
Yes, you are right, so very right.
Manuals to Confessors hmm.
I know about those.
And indeed the older ones say that woman, without losing there feminine nature, should be brought to reason like man, in the sense that they should rely more on reason than sensibility.
But Our Lady in Fatima did not ask for the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy nor ask to read the Bible to save mankind from terrible punishments.
No, Our Lady didn’t ask for the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy to save mankind from terrible punishments. But Our Lord did.
The Rosary may very well be the greatest thing this side of Mass, but you can’t make an objective statement that one should pray the rosary over any other activity. You can only look at particular situations and decide what’s the best thing to do. In fact, one can’t even pray the rosary without first reading the Gospel, otherwise the mysteries will be meaningless.
And we can’t mandate the rosary on anyone because, as many people have said it’s private revelation. A doctor might recommend the South Beach diet to all of his patients so that they will be healthy. But that doesn’t mean that only people on the South Beach diet are healthy. The rosary is recommended to everyone, but that doesn’t mean that someone who doesn’t pray the rosary is spiritually dead or isn’t doing their part to save souls.
And now you charmingly continue by explaining how women are unreasonable.
Sir, you need to repent of your hateful attitude towards women. You are treading very dangerous ground in the eyes of God.
The ones that are acting like you are.
No one likes to hear about their defects.
If you want to speak about mens fine.
No problem.
But this is not the oppertunity.
I was simple speaking to specific case.
You, like Eve and not Our Lady, are acting on pure emotion and sensibility, because I have backed up what I have said.
You are accusing me of hating women, which is pretty stupid because I am a moral person, and have never even dishonored a woman and have it clear that they should be defended and protected from lustful idiots.
It is just not true.
Speaking hatefully towards and about women does not mean that you lust after women or think they should be physically or sexually violated. Do you really think that there are no other forms of dishonouring women than sexually?
You, like Eve and not Our Lady, are acting on pure emotion and sensibility, because I have backed up what I have said.
How have you backed up what you said? You’ve ranted that women have less intelligence than men and that they always insist on being right.
Esau,
I am not shoving the Rosary down anyones throat.
I am just stating the fact that Our Blessed Mother has commanded us to pray the Rosary more than any other prayer.
Our Blessed Mother knows what is best for every one of us better than what we think we know ourselves.
If I was going to shove my own will down someones throat I would tell them to sing the Marine Corps Hymn thrice a day.But this wouldn’t do squat.
God bless you.
Xavier:
Are you by any chance a ‘Postulate’?
Your manner of speaking reminds me of someone I know.
Although, I admit, you seem to have an unyielding devotion, which, itself, is admirable.
However, the only problem I find is that it seems to be misplaced.
Man’s defects, my friend, are many; however, it is coming to terms with these defects and, above all, looking up to the Lord for spiritual guidance can we actually conquer them!
Not take away from the Chaplet (I have a sort of “no” with it because many progressivists and modernists pray it {Charismatics…} and replace it with the Rosary, {lazy bums!})
Xavier, I’m not big on the Charismatic movement, but you seem to be calling all Charismatics progressivists and modernists and all people with a devotion to Divine Mercy lazy bums. First of all that type of sweeping generalization isn’t charitable. Secondly, by your logic all Catholics are lazy, progresso-modernist bums because most Catholics disagree with the Authority of the Church.
John Paul II canonized St. Faustina and made Divine Mercy Sunday a Holy Day. Are you doubting his Marian devotion because he also promoted the Divine Mercy Chaplet? After all, time spent praying the chaplet is time that could have been spent praying the rosary.
Marines?
Sing the Pontifical Hymn!
O Rome Eternal…
Actually, isn’t it:
O Rome immortal of Martyrs and Saints?
The objectively best prayer besides the holy mass?
Why hasn’t anyone mentioned the Divine Office?
After all, the Rosary has its origins as a substitute for those who couldn’t pray the Office.
The objectively best prayer besides the holy mass?
Why hasn’t anyone mentioned the Divine Office?
After all, the Rosary has its origins as a substitute for those who couldn’t pray the Office.
The objectively best prayer besides the holy mass?
Why hasn’t anyone mentioned the Divine Office?
After all, the Rosary has its origins as a substitute for those who couldn’t pray the Office.
Look directly at my words.
Many is not all.
Charismatics are progressivists.
And I said my “no” ( does not really mean I say the Chaplet is bad, I prayed it when I was younger, now I pray other things, like the Rosary and recieving Holy Communion daily.) was because the ones who mainly promote it are progressivists.
It is not a waste of time, praying is never a waste of time. But some prayers should be supplement to. Like the official prayers are the Mass and the Litany of the Saints and I think the Our Father, and all others are suplementary, the Rosary has a predominance over all the suplemantary prayers.
I forgot, I also pray the Divine Office.
And I enjoyed the plenary indulgence on Divine Mercy Sunday as well!
I forgot, I also pray the Divine Office.
Unfortunately, not that many Catholics do.
Speaking of which:
Link
Online Divine Office
But, of course, that doesn’t mean it’s the only kind devotion there is.
Look directly at my words.
Many is not all.
You’re right I misconstrued your statement. Let me try again. Would I be correct if I used your logic to conclude that one shouldn’t pray the rosary because most Catholics are not in full communion with the Church?
On the lighter side…
Only Catholics can turn an article promoting spending time with your family over getting caught up in media hype into an argument about the rosary. And only Catholics can have an argument about the rosary where everyone involved agrees that the rosary is the greatest thing since sliced bread (figuratively, its obviously much older than sliced bread).
Only Catholics can turn an article promoting spending time with your family over getting caught up in media hype into an argument about the rosary.
Next “Off-Topic”:
Alec Baldwin’s Fury Revealed on Answering Machine: What Do You Think?
Brian
Isn’t it great?
God bless you and yours.
It is great. Maddening, but in that oddly satisfying kind of way. 😉
Esau: I’d tell you what I think of the Baldwin thing, but then I’d have to go to Confession.
This is private revelation. Private revelation imposes no duties or obligations upon anyone, I suppose with the possible exception of the visionaries themselves.
I have to say I find this kind of absolutizing of particular devotions to be troublesome. You look at Fatima and conclude that the rosary is the most important. Someone else could read St. Faustina and concludes that the Divine Mercy chaplet is most important.
If one goes by what the Church actually teaches, then as Michael Sullivan helpfully points out the rosary must take second place to the Divine Office, the official prayer of the Church, which the Church commends to its children above every other prayer except the Mass.
The objectively best prayer besides the holy mass?
Why hasn’t anyone mentioned the Divine Office?
After all, the Rosary has its origins as a substitute for those who couldn’t pray the Office.
Great point. By this reasoning you could also make a case that reciting all 150 psalms everyday is the best prayer.
By this reasoning you could also make a case that reciting all 150 psalms everyday is the best prayer.
Brian:
From this remark, I take it you’re familiar with the History of the Liturgy of the Hours. ;^)
Dan, it is great. I wish it were possible for the same debate to take place in any random cross-section of Catholics.
Um, no. The Divine Office is the daily prayer of the Church; the entire Psalter is not. The Church prays the Liturgy of the Hours every day and commends this prayer to all her children above all others except the Mass. The Church does not and never has prayed all 150 Psalms every day, has never recommended such a practice.
Esau,
No, I’ve considered it, but still find the Hours too daunting. I’m still struggling to build a consistent contemplative prayer life. In a given month I’ll pray the rosary many times, go to weekday Mass several times, read a book or two in Bible, and maybe even make an hour of adoration; but I won’t necessarily do any one on a given day. I’ve tried the Little Office, but never got in the groove of praying it every day and eventually gave up. This past Good Friday I prayed the Divine Mercy Chaplet for the first time and actually prayed the full novena leading up to Divine Mercy Sunday. That was the first time I’ve actually completed a novena.
Um, no. The Divine Office is the daily prayer of the Church; the entire Psalter is not.
SDG:
I believe what Brian meant is that in the beginning, as historical reference, all 150 Psalms were recited each day.
However, eventually, the practice known as the Divine Office came to be when they established a weekly cycle in its stead built around certain hours of the day.
In fact, the practice of the Divine Office, as you know it now, is not even the same as it was then.
There were many reforms that came about at each stage of its development.
By this reasoning you could also make a case that reciting all 150 psalms everyday is the best prayer.
Um, no. The Divine Office is the daily prayer of the Church; the entire Psalter is not. The Church prays the Liturgy of the Hours every day and commends this prayer to all her children above all others except the Mass. The Church does not and never has prayed all 150 Psalms every day, has never recommended such a practice.
SDG, I didn’t mean it seriously (although I wouldn’t tell anyone not to recite the psalms). I was just throwing it out there as an interesting tid bit. I understood that Mike’s main point was that the Liturgy of the Hours are the Official Prayer of the Church(TM) even though it was only implied. The only reason Mike actually cited for claiming the Hours is that the rosary developed from them. I was just playing with that line of thinking.
The only reason Mike actually cited for claiming the Hours is that the rosary developed from them.
The Rosary DID NOT develop from the Divine Hours.
Although, the Divine Office DID develop from the original practice of praying the 150 Psalms each day.
So both the Divine Office and the Rosary can trace themselves back to the practice of reciting psalms, but not to each other. Is that correct? I had always heard that the rosary developed from reciting psalms and took Micheal’s word when he said, “After all, the Rosary has its origins as a substitute for those who couldn’t pray the Office.”
Brian:
The Rosary DID NOT develop from the Reciting of Psalms, period.
Esau,
That the Roman Catholic rosary developed from the divine Office and reciting of Psalms is a historically documented fact. Are you alleging that the legend that the blessed Theotokos appeared to St. Dominic and handed him the first Rosary is true and history is false?
As an Orthodox Christian, I have to say that I find it much simpler just to say the Jesus prayer and to pray the offices of our Church that are prayed by monks worldwide. I’m not against the Rosary. I do think it is a beautiful devotion. But, I find Latin devotions, such as the Rosary, more complicated and distracting than they need to be. Also, I think all of the attaching of indulgences, “promises,” divine threats, etc. that are attached to these devotions on the basis of alleged mystical appearances to be contrary to the whole spirit and purpose of prayer. But, as I said, I’m Orthodox, not Roman Catholic.
Joe S.
As even Wikipedia rightly indicates:
The Rosary came to replace the popular devotional practice that consisted of reciting the 150 Psalms of the Bible in thirds or 50 at a time. Instead of the Psalms, 150 Our Fathers were recited.
Esau,
You are right. I guess it is just a semantic difference between “developed from” and “replaced.” Saying that the rosary replaced the saying of 150 Our Fathers (in place of the Psalms) is probably more accurate.
Joe S.
I would rightly call Horae (Divine Office) as having developed from the original recitation of all 150 Psalms, a practice that had originally been done daily until an early form of the Horae came to be wherein the Psalms were done in a weekly cycle around certain hours of the day instead of saying ALL 150 Psalms in a day, as was the original practice, as mentioned.
This makes sense —
Remember Psalm 119:
” Seven times a day I have given praise to thee…”
Over time, the practice developed wherein it was reformed in a number of different ways (e.g., the addition of hours, the exact time the Hours were actually said day/nite, the fact that the Divine Office wasn’t even just one book) until the one that emerged as the standard one in our day.
By developed from I meant the practice, not the prayer itself, developed from the practice of reciting daily psalms. I guess replaced is more clear.
Can anyone recommend a Divine Office that I can purchase?
Thank You and God bless.
As an Orthodox Christian, I have to say that I find it much simpler just to say the Jesus prayer and to pray the offices of our Church that are prayed by monks worldwide.
Joe S.
God bless you!
I feel the same way (even though I do pray the Rosary, too).
The Divine Office was meant to capitalize on the ONENESS and UNITY of the Church.
Although, the much earlier version of RAD TRADS that came to be during the days of Pope Gregory VII would actually condemn said Pope (the way today’s RAD TRADS do with regards to Pope Paul VI); in that it was said the ‘Liturgial Reform’ done by this Pope unjustly abridged the Prayers and made unnecessary simplifications of the Liturgy as it was once originally practiced.
Interestingly enough, the very reason why Pope Gregory VII REFORMED the Divine Office was because of the DECADENCE he observed during his time and, thus, wanted to REFORM it in order to RENEW its practice.
Sound Familiar????
Novus Ordo Missae anyone????
Hence, YOU WILL ALWAYS HAVE RAD TRADS NO MATTER WHAT PERIOD OF TIME YOU LIVE IN!
CORRECTION:
… in that it was said the ‘Liturgial Reform’ done by this Pope to the Divine Office unjustly abridged the Prayers and made unnecessary simplifications of the Liturgy as it was once originally practiced.
Hence, YOU WILL ALWAYS HAVE RAD TRADS NO MATTER WHAT PERIOD OF TIME YOU LIVE IN!
Esau, we have them in the Orthodox Church too. They get in a tizzy over an iconostasis that has no curtain or synods that approve of leaving the royal doors of the iconostasis open for the entire liturgy. And we have those that say that if you take medication on Sunday morning with water, you break the communion fast. But, if you swallow down the medication without any liquid, you keep the fast. Didn’t Our Lord say something about straining at gnats? Wow, sorry I’ve really gotten this off topic. I apologize for that.
Meanwhile, back on topic…
I see that there is now some minor uproar against the media for broadcasting the shooter’s various diatribes.
There was a bit of hemming and hawing and attempts to explain, but the fact is, there is NOTHING that could have prevented any of them from showing that junk. Balanced against some foggy, moralistic idea about the “common good” they will take the money and run every. single. time.
Which is why they won’t be happy until they can actually capture a murder or suicide on one of these “reality” shows, wherein they cherry-pick the most narcissistic and immature personalities they can find, match them up for maximum conflict and then throw them together in a setting where the antagonism can be fine-tuned to a fever pitch by the producers… and then they follow everyone around with cameras.
When it finally happens, just watch how fast the responsible parties shake their heads and lament “This is tragic… we couldn’t have known… we’re stunned… we’re looking into what might have caused this”…
Tim J.
I couldn’t agree more.
Joe S, thanks for your comments. I appreciate your perspective.
Tim J. —
About:
There was a bit of hemming and hawing and attempts to explain, but the fact is, there is NOTHING that could have prevented any of them from showing that junk.
Yeah — from evening (6:00 News, Nightly News) to night (11:00 News) to even the TODAY SHOW, NBC tried to defend its actions by repeatedly saying that that’s the reason why they cut the showing to just a mere 10 minutes or less.
All this is nothing but a ploy to save face.
It was a calculated move.
They planned this in advanced of the showing so that they can, in a sense, have their cake (i.e., show the footage, etc., to draw audiences) and eat it too (i.e., save face by justifying their actions by some sort of pseudo-sentimental appeal to the audience that what they actually did was the right move — and, after all, they only showed just a small segment of it rather than the whole thing!).
What garbage!
Even though I like NBC Nightly News and NBC News, this was nothing but a Media ploy!
How about the Angelus Press, Divine Office?Does anybody know anything about it?
God bless.
I know the Catholic Book Publishing Company publishes the Divine Office. I think they have both the full version in 4? volumes or a shortened one volume version. I like a lot of CBPC’s stuff, but they usually use modern language (you instead of thou), I don’t know if that’s a plus or a minus from your perspective. I can’t say anything specifically about their Divine Office because I’ve never used it.
I guess I’ll post something on topic :-). I agree with other here who rightly point out how the market for sensationalized reality t.v. is driving all of this. I think it will only get worse. I don’t know about reality crime t.v., though that is possible. But, I can imagine reality death penalty t.v. where they show live executions. Or, even worse, reality abortion t.v. Anything for money, right?
I do think that there are three lessons we can learn from this whole tragedy though. First, we should cherish our lives and our loved ones, because we don’t know how much time we have. Second, we should not cling too tightly to this life or our loved ones for the same reason. We don’t know how much time we have. Third, we need to focus on the Gospel and on eternity and we need to stand in solidarity with our fellow sufferers in this world. I pray for the repose of the souls of the victims, for the repose of the soul of the perpetrator that God might have mercy upon him, and for grace, peace, and comfort for the families of the victims and other loved ones.
Brian is right.
There are the 4 Books for the Liturgy of the Hours as well as an abridged version which is called “Christian Prayer” (I think).
Just a side note, Anglicans also pray the Divine Office and theirs is one of the most beautiful volumes I’ve seen yet (at least, the one I’ve seen).
Yet, a real Traditionalist wouldn’t actually use any of these.
They would go back to how it was originally practiced in the distant past: use the Psaltery, the Lectionary, the Book of Homilies, the Legendary, the Antiphonarium, the Hymnal, the Book of Collects, the Martyrology, and the Rubrics! ;^)
I do think that there are three lessons we can learn from this whole tragedy though. First, we should cherish our lives and our loved ones, because we don’t know how much time we have. Second, we should not cling too tightly to this life or our loved ones for the same reason. We don’t know how much time we have. Third, we need to focus on the Gospel and on eternity and we need to stand in solidarity with our fellow sufferers in this world. I pray for the repose of the souls of the victims, for the repose of the soul of the perpetrator that God might have mercy upon him, and for grace, peace, and comfort for the families of the victims and other loved ones.
Joe S.
Great thoughts, brother!
One lesson I wished everybody would learn (above all, the Media) is NOT TO GIVE INTO the demands of these killers by giving them the Media Attention, the very notoriety that they desired in the first place!
How many would-be copy-cats (who desired the same) would actually repeat such acts if the wishes of these killers weren’t respected in the first place and they actually didn’t receive all this MEDIA COVERAGE?
Just weighing in on the Divine Office — It is NIT the rosary that is second to Mass, but the Divine Office as the prayer of the entire church. It is not a private revelation, but a way of sanctifying time. It will be prayed until the end of time, at every hour of the day as the earth turns (yes,I know there are not 24 separate Offices, but somewhere on earth, every office is being prayed).
While it is REQUIRED of all religious, it is recommended to the laity. See John Paul II’s Mane Nobiscum Domine and his Novo Millenio Ineunte.
Also the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy – “All who render this service…are sharing in the greatest honor of Christ’s spouse. They are standing before God’s throne in the name of the Church their mother…interceding for the salvation of the whole world.”
And the Vatican Decree from the Apostolic Penitentiary, January 14, 2005: “A Plenary Indulgence is also granted to the clergy…and to other faithful who are by law obliged to recite the Liturgy of the hours, as well as to those who customarily recite the Divine Office out of pure devotion, each and every time they recite – at the end of the day, in company or in private – Vespers and Night Prayer before the Lord present in the Tabernacle.”
Also the Catechism:
1174 The mystery of Christ, his Incarnation and Passover, which we celebrate in the Eucharist especially at the Sunday assembly, permeates and transfigures the time of each day, through the celebration of the Liturgy of the Hours, “the divine office.” This celebration, faithful to the apostolic exhortations to “pray constantly,” is “so devised that the whole course of the day and night is made holy by the praise of God.”47 In this “public prayer of the Church,”48 the faithful (clergy, religious, and lay people) exercise the royal priesthood of the baptized. Celebrated in “the form approved” by the Church, the Liturgy of the Hours “is truly the voice of the Bride herself addressed to her Bridegroom. It is the very prayer which Christ himself together with his Body addresses to the Father.
1175 The Liturgy of the Hours is intended to become the prayer of the whole People of God. In it Christ himself “continues his priestly work through his Church.”50 His members participate according to their own place in the Church and the circumstances of their lives: priests devoted to the pastoral ministry, because they are called to remain diligent in prayer and the service of the word; religious, by the charism of their consecrated lives; all the faithful as much as possible: “Pastors of souls should see to it that the principal hours, especially Vespers, are celebrated in common in church on Sundays and on the more solemn feasts. The laity, too, are encouraged to recite the divine office, either with the priests, or among themselves, or even individually.”
I recommend the DIvine Office for Dodos, from Amazon.
mtr —
About your remark:
It is not a private revelation
I don’t think anybody here called it that.
However, your next comments ring true (at least, with me):
a way of sanctifying time. It will be prayed until the end of time, at every hour of the day as the earth turns (yes,I know there are not 24 separate Offices, but somewhere on earth, every office is being prayed).
Actually, there were times in the history of the Divine Office that it was found necessary under pain of excommunication to prohibit its distribution, printing, receipt without the proper authority and, in fact, all other previous and current versions of it was actually outlawed.
(Incidentally, this reminds me of the Tridentine Rite of Mass where there were, in fact, many rites that actually existed even during the time of Trent, but Pope St. Pius V suppressed them so that the Tridentine Rite of Mass would be the only one there was — at least, where the Latins were concerned.)
I believe the reasons for these actions was to ensure only ONE Divine Office was said and, not only that, but that it was said PROPERLY; thus, promoting a UNITY and ONENESS in the Church so that the Divine Office truly becomes the Prayer of the Universal Church, wherever everyone in every corner of the world praying the SAME.
wherever everyone in every corner of the world praying the SAME.
People say all sorts of prayers. Are they to stop that?
People say all sorts of prayers. Are they to stop that?
Uhhh… that was a historical reference to the Divine Office, nothing more.
Jerry:
I think I see where your confusion came from —
What I meant to say is:
… where everyone in every corner of the world praying the SAME OFFICE (i.e., the one version of the Divine Office).
I think I see where your confusion came from — What I meant to say is
If you didn’t say what you meant to say, the confusion looks to be yours Esau.
If you didn’t say what you meant to say, the confusion looks to be yours Esau.
Actually, if you read the original statement in its entirety, this is exactly what it said.
Tim, I was very glad to hear this morning that the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation chose not to broadcast any of the shooters’ stuff. It’s not often that I can praise the CBC, but that’s really very decent of them
“No precept in any magisterial source, papal teaching document, catechism, code of canon law, or comparable source which imposes any sort of duty to pray the rosary, AFAIK.”
I believe members of certain religious orders are enjoined to pray the Rosary. There are other prayer forms that various members of various religious orders are enjoined to pray also.
I hope that our response to this tragedy is dominated not only by compassion for the victims, but also by compassion for the perpetrator.
Some people up above mentioned the racial implications of this tragedy. Over on Stormfront (a forum for white nationalists), some are speculating that the choice of victims was racially motivated since he targed a German and a French class. There appears to be some degree of backlash, but not that much.
Since I don’t think — unless it’s not been reported by NBC — there was any mention of race in the material he sent to NBC, to claim his crime was racially motivated is unwarranted.
I praise the CBC for their hockey coverage. I went to school near Canada and we got CBC. It’s way better than anything you can get in the States. And curling is great on lazy weekend mornings.
Yikes, I go away for a few hours and miss a lot.
Dan, if there is a Catholic bookstore near you, they should have both the one volume Shorter Christian Prayer and the 4 volume set. The one volume has Morning Prayer (Lauds), Evening Prayer (Vespers) and Night Prayer. The 4 volume set has all the hours, including the Office of Readings, the second reading frequently from writings of the Church Fathers and other saints.
Esau, there’s something more going on than Cho looking for media attention. But I’m not going to get into a discussion about it now.
Tim J and Esau,
All week I’ve held off on responding to the idea that Cho sent his multi-media package as a way of gaining notoriety. As I said in an earlier post, it is too soon for anything other than handling grief and pain.
Tim said, “now is not the time unless there is some actual point that just can’t be made otherwise” The actual point is that there is explanation other than notoriety. The “notoriety as motive” view inevitably leads to an instance such as a letter to the editor in this morning’s paper in which the writer said we shouldn’t even name him, just a label like “lunatic #17.”
To depersonalize Cho may be understandable, but ultimately unwise. Not only for him, but for we who claim to follow the crucified and risen Christ.
Again, my only point is that there are other explanations. While it is too soon to discuss them, the notoriety view sends up too many red flags and I just wanted to put some brakes on it.
Mary Kay,
You bring up an interesting point that from Cho’s end the multimedia package was probably more of a cry for help than an attempt at making a name for himself. If he had sent out the video a week before the shootings, maybe someone would have realized his trouble and helped him.
From the media’s standpoint I think you have to ask why they broadcasted it. I haven’t seen the video, but I’ve read a few quotes from it in articles. All I picked up on is that he felt completely ostracized and was angry at the world. It didn’t seem to offer much insight to help us understand his motives better. Maybe if it did, NBC would be more justified in showing it. But for now it appears that their first interest was profit rather than informing the public. Although, you’re correct that it may be best to hold off on conclusions until the dust settles a little.
“You bring up an interesting point that from Cho’s end the multimedia package was probably more of a cry for help…”
How does that work if one is about to commit suicide and the package will only arrive the next day?
I’m not saying that the notoriety was the only, or even the primary motivator, but it was certainly a big part of the whole picture, just based on the plain evidence.
My problem isn’t that the publicity gives the killer what he wanted (him not being around to know or enjoy it), but that it provides some motivation for the NEXT shooter wannabe.
In addition, the V.T. shooter was clearly insane, which means that drawing the line bewteen reality and fantasy in his statements might be nearly impossible. There might be some elements that could be useful – from which we might learn something – but I will leave that to the professionals.
Finally, what really upsets me is the fact that the people who really do some good in the world – who make difficult sacrifices every day fo the good of others, who pour their energy into trying to make the world better – are pretty well ignored, while the lives of warped, sick, violent people are obsessively examined, their motivations probed… we seem to be fascinated with trying to pin down precisely what made them tick, constantly trying to “get inside their minds”.
Imagine if we, as a society, put half that energy into studying the lives of charitable, contented, accomplished people? What if we were less interested in great criminals and more interested in the lives of the saints?
It’s why I get tired of Hitler or Stalin or Saddam being put under the documentary microscope for the umpteenth time… anyone ever hear of the Banality of Evil?
How does that work if one is about to commit suicide and the package will only arrive the next day?
You’re presuming he was only seeking to help himself. His “manifesto” says he was seeking to help others even if he himself could not be helped. We can mock that claim and stuff our heads in the sand, or we can take it seriously.
people who really do some good in the world… are pretty well ignored, while the lives of warped, sick, violent people are obsessively examined, their motivations probed
Like many examinations of conscience, the focus is on sin. Health is often taken for granted, while illness is probed in depth. Illness wakes people up. It’s not a bad thing to take a close look at it.
Imagine if we, as a society, put half that energy into studying the lives of charitable, contented, accomplished people?
Society already pays much attention to “accomplished” people, whatever that means. And not to discredit charity, but much of what society promotes as charity is selfishness in disguise. As to contentment, that’s something best found within rather than idolized in others.
“We can mock that claim and stuff our heads in the sand, or we can take it seriously.”
So, he was helping the weak and defenseless by shooting 32 weak and defenseless people? No, I don’t take it seriously, except as a symptom of his derangement and delusion.
“Society already pays much attention to “accomplished” people…”
Maybe if it is the “flashy” sort of accomplished… people who are accomplished in their everyday work, who generally keep things going without much fanfare are by and large ignored, which is not surprising. They are not doing it for recognition, and we couldn’t go around recognizing every decent man or woman there is… but it wouldn’t hurt to try.
“You bring up an interesting point that from Cho’s end the multimedia package was probably more of a cry for help…”
How does that work if one is about to commit suicide and the package will only arrive the next day?
How does sending it out to get famous work if he’s about to commit suicide? I never said it was well thought out on his part. I think I was trying to say something more like: Cho’s motivation for getting his 15 minutes of fame was fueled by whatever inner demons pushed him to the point of committing such a massacre. On the other hand, the media’s motivation for sensationalizing it could turn out to be plain old greed.
So, he was helping the weak and defenseless by shooting 32 weak and defenseless people?
If you suffer from nearsightedness, you can’t see beyond the horror of 32 people.
They are not doing it for recognition
People who are “accomplished” and “keep things going” are fortunate. When they recognize that, they have all the recognition they need.
Tim,
Your concern about copycat behavior is a valid one. I won’t go into what I think of the media’s timing in airing it this week.
what really upsets me is the fact that the people who really do some good in the world … are pretty well ignored
Sticking with Va Tech, the students who died and those who survived were and are, bright, caring young adults – good people who did not deserve to die or be traumatized.
Your question of why not study the good people reminded me of a story about Fr. Jenco who spent many years working for Catholic Relief Services until he was kidnapped and became one of the Beirut hostages in the early 1980s. In an interview after he was released, he said in a way that sounded a bit of a complaint to me, “I’ve spent 25 years in feeding the hungry. Nobody asks me about that. All they ask about is the time I was a hostage.” (paraphrase)
This is probably not the time for an analysis of why that was so, just that it is. And stories of good people don’t push the “it shouldn’t be this way” button.
on to part 2…
Catholic teaching says that sin affects not only the sinner but others as well. Monday’s carnage is a vivid example.
Stories of nice guys don’t seem to be very stimilating. That’s why the Church has long relied on the fear of hell.
Tim, I started a long post and then tossed it because in the meantime Eric posted and you responded “Why shoot 32 people? No, I don’t take him seriously.”
tangent first – I do want to note that on one hand you say that you want to leave it to the professionals and on the other hand, you toss around words like derangement, delusion and the concept of reality testing as if you knew what they meant. Bit of a contradiction there.
It doesn’t make sense to you that someone would shoot 32 people to “help people,” so you’re not going to take him seriously and indeed dismiss him as deranged and delusional. You’re not alone in that reaction. Someone on Catholic radio said the same thing, that she would not give him what he wanted.
But that’s not what your first post said. Your first post spoke of wanting celebrity status and you compared him with Imus and Anna Nicole Smith. there might be the makings for a perfect storm of vanity, resentment and rage.
The resentment and rage were there but not because of vanity. It is difficult for some to realize that people can be in so much pain that they inflict harm on themselves or others. Pain is not the only reason why people inflict harm on self or others, but it’s a more frequent reason than vanity.
I’m not saying this for the sake of argument or debate. Healing, which only comes from Jesus, is more complete when issues and feelings are correctly identified. IMHO, Cho’s actions are more likely attributed to despair than vanity. The reaction of anger is understandable.
Perhaps I should just leave it at that.
“I do want to note that on one hand you say that you want to leave it to the professionals and on the other hand, you toss around words like derangement, delusion…”
You’re right, of course, and I realized as I wrote the original post that, to some extent, I was doing the very thing about which I was complaining… that people were going to pontificate and draw rash, basically uninformed conclusions about a situation of which they were almost wholly ignorant. But Cho didn’t send a note to his family, or leave a video on his computer, instead he mailed a scripted multi-media packet to a major network. If he was mainly concerned about real grievances, about righting wrongs, why the dramatic poses, why the whole “Taxi Driver” vibe? He (as far as I know) never mentioned any names.
“the resentment and rage were there but not because of vanity”
My question is (in the same way you challenged my assumptions) how do you know this? There is nothing to keep him from being in pain AND vain AND insane AND just evil (not that I know one way or the other).
I don’t doubt at all that he was in real pain, but adolescence/young adulthood is painful for a LOT of people. Speech problems, social awkwardness, culture shock are dealt with by many, many people… but they don’t generally respond with random acts of violence. Cho had other issues, clearly.
I resented rich kids in college, too, but that UNDOUBTEDLY was MY problem. To me, they had EVERYTHING and didn’t appreciate it… except I really had no clue whether they appreciated it or not. I was immature, self-centered and willing to believe the worst about a group of people I knew absolutely nothing about. Life was (in some ways) easier for them, and I resented that. That’s envy, and envy is a sin. I talked a great deal about how unfair it was that people judged me by my appearance, by my clothing (I looked like a biker/hippie at the time), but I judged every bit as harshly and stupidly those who wore chinos and Izod sweaters… I had THEM all figured out.
I accept that Cho may have had some legitimate gripes, but so does everyone. I don’t feel we should make these real or imagined offenses the focus, as if he might not have snapped if only student “X” had gone out with him, or student “Y” invited him to that party.
Riight. That’s why the lives of the saints have gone so underreported.
If he was mainly concerned about real grievances, about righting wrongs, why the dramatic poses, why the whole “Taxi Driver” vibe?
Because liberation is often dramatic.
I accept that Cho may have had some legitimate gripes, but so does everyone.
Not everyone fits in the mold. Cho took steps to reshape some thinking.
I’ve caught Miller’s radio show a couple of times in recent weeks, and he strikes me as a sincere truth-seeker who knows he hasn’t figured it all out yet. It may be interesting to see how his ideas evolve as time goes on.
Tim, starting from the bottom of your post, no one to my knowledge has suggested that it was a “if only he’d been invited” thing.
There has been some work done as to why some kids get knocks in life and come out stronger and other kids get knocked down. My take on it in simplified form is that it is (number, frequency and intensity of stressors/trauma) versus (inner strengths and support of family and community). If more support than trauma, kid bounces back. If more trauma than support, kid’s resilience decreases.
I’ve worked in a mental health setting with kids more than adults, but did lots of suicide assessments and saw mandated clients, people involuntarily referred for counseling. What they were dealing with was not just the adjustment difficulties you mentioned, but a deeper pain.
You asked why I excluded vanity. The short answer is that it’s a popular misconception. Kids and teens do engage in negative attention seeking behavior. Invariably, the serious ideation and intention to harm self or others, had strong feelings of hopelessness, helpless and powerlessness. Wanting to be a celebrity wasn’t even on the radar. That would’ve been something positive to work with.
The feelings of helpless, hopeless, powerless are associated with being unable to express their pain. Some people do engage in self-harmful behaviors as as way of expressing pain. There are debatable points to be sure, but talk therapy does indeed have value. Young children benefit from play therapy.
WARNING…GRAPHIC DESCRIPTION FOLLOWS
Our faces are probably what the most identifying feature for most of us. If Cho was doing this out of vanity, he would have found a way to kill himself and keep his face intact. He didn’t. Authorities said he was not identifiable at first. The reason was that he had blown off his face, or most of it. Obliteratinig one’s identity is inconsistent with vanity.
Eric, I have no clue where your posts are coming from. There is nothing liberating about the unnecessary deaths of 32 innocent people.
Nor is there anything liberating about suicide.
I gather you’re a non-Catholic who came across this site?
There is nothing liberating about the unnecessary deaths of 32 innocent people.
In Cho’s view, it was part of a liberation, to include his own. He suffered from being trapped within himself, as do many other people.
Nor is there anything liberating about suicide.
We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. God works in mysterious ways.
Obliteratinig one’s identity is inconsistent with vanity.
Not quite Mary Kay.
1) His “identity” as you call it was not “obliterated” in his presentation to MSNBC or until that moment.
2) Vanity isn’t limited to physical appearance, name, serial numbers, etc.
3) If a person attempts to obliterate his identity, that too can be vanity.
4) Belief in one’s ability to judge vanity can itself be vanity.
Eric, first you take a viewpoint contrary to Tim’s. At least, you didn’t agree with him, as others have, that Cho’s actions were largely from vanity. In taking a contrary view to mine, you’ve done a 180 and are now supporting the vanity viewpoint.
This is not the time to debate for the sake of debate.
Of your three responses, your second two had elements of truth, but were either strawman arguments or or such a theoretical nature as to be out of place at this time of grieving. It’s as though adding a volume of responses will somehow buttress the weak argument of “liberation.”
In taking a contrary view to mine, you’ve done a 180 and are now supporting the vanity viewpoint.
No, I’m not claiming he was acting from vanity, but only that the “obliteration” is itself insufficient to support the view that it wasn’t from vanity.
It’s as though adding a volume of responses will somehow buttress the weak argument of “liberation.”
Per his manifesto, he saw himself as a leader of a “revolution”, a “vengeance” against the “Crucifiers of the Innocents”, that he was “inspiring the weak and defenseless”, the “dorky”, the abused and beaten, to rise up and smite the “terrorists”, “rapists”, “sadistic teachers”, hedonists, sinners, leeches, the profiteering manipulators of the truth, etc. “You decided to spill my blood. You forced me into a corner and gave me only one option. The decision was yours,” he said, expressing how he felt trapped with but one imposed option (for liberation). Elsewhere he said, “I didn’t have to do this. I could have left. I could have fled. But no, I will no longer run. It’s not for me. For my children, for my brothers and sisters…” The phrase “I will no longer run” indicates a choice other than to remain in the continuing oppression of continuing exile. That would apparently indicate a choice for liberation, even if most people would not view the ensuing actions as exactly liberating.
Eric, since this is simply a combox discussion, sometimes differing views are expressed and it looks like that’s true today about the word vanity.
True liberation only comes from Jesus. He is the only one who can free anyone from their bonds.
I am not going to debate Cho’s words, at least not at this time. There are 33 deeply grieving and pained families. Extended family widens that circle, not to mention others who have had old wounds re-opened and others not directly affected.
At this point, the most healing thing would be to give them the space to let them grieve.
I will certainly defer to the professionals, but the trauma/support idea as you expressed it seemed to leave out the possibility that Cho may have been unbalanced independent of and prior to any external stressors (I,m not saying those weren’t present). In other words, that there might have been some organic/chemical problem that made him interpret the world and the actions of others as he did. That’s why I am skeptical that his view of things as he expressed it can be understood as much more than a fantasy.
Not every insane person is DRIVEN insane. Some may have started out that way.
His view that he was some sort of victim was certainly valid TO HIM, but how much it corresponded to reality is anyone’s guess, at this point.
I could be completely wrong, but right now ANYONE could be. The point of my original post was that Cho could count on the media to carry forward one aspect of his plan for him, and that this involved getting his face on television. He needed have no doubt that he would be all over the television and the internet within a day. Apperently this was important to him.
As for Eric, he seems to be trying hard to say whatever he thinks will get the biggest reaction. No internal logic. There’s a word for that.
Tim, there were a lot of things I left out. If we ever meet in person, I’ll give you my “mental health in a nutshell” spiel. 🙂
I agree with you about Eric.
Thanks, MK. I expect we are not that far apart, but I have been frustrated by the fact that there are those who actually ADMIRE and idolize people like Cho and the media feed right into that.
There are just times when I feel the only decent thing to do is look away, but that runs completely counter to the media mindset.
I am praying for the families and friends who grieve, including those of the shooter.
We might also pray for the media. If one or two are changed by this experience and begin to think of their subjects as human beings, rather than just “stories”, maybe some good will come, down the line.
True liberation only comes from Jesus. He is the only one who can free anyone from their bonds.
Liberation comes in many forms. To include the kind George Bush talks about in terms of Iraq, even if it hasn’t materialized.
Liberation comes in many forms. To include the kind George Bush talks about in terms of Iraq, even if it hasn’t materialized.
Do you mean when the Iraqis are liberated from their invaders?
Yeah, those nasty Iranians and Arabs encouraging civil war. 😛
Eric,
If you call going to Hell liberating,then what the gunman did to himself is.
Although I cannot imagine how the denial of the beatific vision is liberating.
God bless you
Hence, YOU WILL ALWAYS HAVE RAD TRADS NO MATTER WHAT PERIOD OF TIME YOU LIVE IN!
You know what is interesting, that Our Lord did no go attack the leftists (pagans and saducees).
His battle was with the false right. (Pharisees)
And so will the Churches.
The Left can cause shocks and be torn apart.
But the False Right is the serpent that you don’t see.
The Wolf in Sheeps clothing.
The True Right will crush the False Right.
The True Right will crush the False Right.
AMEN, Some Day!!!
Glad you’re back! Haven’t heard from you for awhile.
By the way, how’s the postulate life?
Been busy.
Last months of school before I head over to Brazil.
Might go to Hanceville, AL though before I leave.
Lots of opertunities to do apostolate there.
Please pray for me, I have prayed for the bloggers here, not always by name, but the general public here.
I went to see the monastery of Mother Angelica for the second consecutive Holy Week.
Very blessed atmosphere.
Well keep me in your prayers.
Some Day:
Will DEFINITELY keep you in my prayers!
We really need devoted, faithful priests (especially these days) and I’m really hoping you’ll step up to the plate.
Of course, that’s certainly your decision.
God bless you, brother, and I hope you’ll keep me in your prayers as well.
Actually, some probably DO think of going to Hell as liberation… telling God where to get off, as it were.
Ever hear the phrase “Better to rule in Hell than to serve in heaven”? That’s Satan’s sin.
Only thing is, Hell is almost exactly nothing, so there is nothing to rule over.
The Media needs to be contained so that, as it has been said, crimminals and crazies wouldn’t feel like they would automatically become icons.
Ebeth
Climbing along!
Dan writes:
If you call going to Hell liberating,then what the gunman did to himself is.
Dan, I read this statement as a suggestion that the gunman is going to hell. I hope you will concede that no one can judge Cho’s soul or know God’s judgement. We do not know Cho’s fate, because we are not God.
If I misread your statement, I apologize.
Hell is almost exactly nothing, so there is nothing to rule over.
What a vacation.