One big clue to the pope’s thinking came in his 1997 book, titled “Milestones: Memoirs 1927-1977” and written when he was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, in which he sharply criticized the drastic manner in which Pope Paul VI reformed the Mass in 1969.
…
But the picture is not so clear-cut. As Cardinal Ratzinger, he said he considered the new missal a “real improvement” in many respects, and that the introduction of local languages made sense.
In one revealing speech to Catholic traditionalists in 1998, he said bluntly that the old “low Mass,” with its whispered prayers at the altar and its silent congregation, “was not what liturgy should be, which is why it was not painful for many people” when it disappeared.
The most important thing, he said at that time, was to make sure that the liturgy does not divide the Catholic community.
With that in mind, knowledgeable Vatican sources say the pope’s new document will no doubt aim to lessen pastoral tension between the Tridentine rite and the new Mass, rather than hand out a victory to traditionalists.
CNS on the Motu Proprio: a link and commentary
What came to my mind here was there is also a need for those who have rejected our tradition and traditional forms to likewise demonstrate their own good will and a hermeneutic of continuity. Let’s be clear and fair, there has been a hermeneutic of rupture which has banished most anything deemed “pre-conciliar” and this is as problematic as the sort of traditionalist who has rejected anything and everything “post-conciliar.”
Further, not all “traditionalists” take on this approach of rupture. If they are simply attached to the treasures of the classical liturgy, desirous of true liturgical reform in the light of both the Council and our tradition of organic development, all the while never questioning the validity of the modern Roman rite, but calling for a reform of the reform with regard to it, then it seems to me that they have nothing to justify and join the ranks of our Holy Father as a Cardinal in this set of ideas. In that regard, I would propose they form a part of the true liturgical centre and mainstream —- just as do those who focus upon the reform of the reform, but who are supportive of the availability of the classical liturgy, provided we do not take an immobiliistic and triumphalistic approach to it, or one which rejects the Council — not as popular opinion may go of course, but as the mind of the Church may go, as seen in the light of the Conciliar documents and our tradition.
As for the extremes, the road to a change of heart and mind is not a one way street as this article might make one think; it is rather and precisely a two-way street.
Catholic World News reports:
At a December 12 meeting, the Ecclesia Dei commission discussed a papal document that will broaden access to the traditional Latin Mass, Cardinal Jorge Medina Estevez confirmed after the Tuesday-morning session. The Chilean cardinal said that he expects Pope Benedict XVI (bio – news) to release the document in the near future.
Cardinal Medina Estevez, the former prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship, is a member of the Ecclesia Dei Commission, which was set up in 1988 to supervise Vatican relations with traditionalist Catholics. He confirmed that the group’s December 12 meeting was dedicated entirely to a discussion of a papal initiative that will allow more liberal use of the Tridentine rite.
The cardinal told the Roman news agency I Media that the results of today’s discussions would be presented to the Holy Father by Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos (bio – news), the chairman of the Ecclesia Dei commission. He suggested that the Pope might then schedule publication of the document. Cardinal Medina Estevez indicated that he did not anticipate further discussion of the matter by the Ecclesia Dei commission.
Vatican insiders expect that the papal document, widely expected to take the form of a motu proprio, will give priests permission to use the Tridentine rite– the liturgical form used throughout the Roman Catholic Church prior to Vatican II– without requiring the explicit permission of the local bishop.
CHT: Roman Catholic Blog.
MORE . . .
Rorate Caeli, quoting Il Giornale, reports:
Benedict XVI intends to extend the indult of his predecessor, in fact withdrawing from the bishops discretionary power on the matter: the Missal of Saint Pius V is no longer abolished, and even if the ordinary Roman Rite is that originated from the post-conciliar liturgical reform, the old one — used by centuries in the Church — can subsist as an "extraordinary rite".
The bishops, therefore, will not be able to deny the ancient mass anymore, but only regulate its eventual celebration, together with the parish priests, harmonising it with the need of the community. The corrections included would have reduced from 50 to 30 the minimal number of faithful who ask for the celebration according to the old rite. As for the readmission of the Lefebvrists, once the rite of Saint Pius V is liberalized, the deal should be easier.
GET THE STORY.
(CHT to the reader who e-mailed!)
Author: Jimmy Akin
Jimmy was born in Texas, grew up nominally Protestant, but at age 20 experienced a profound conversion to Christ. Planning on becoming a Protestant seminary professor, he started an intensive study of the Bible. But the more he immersed himself in Scripture the more he found to support the Catholic faith, and in 1992 he entered the Catholic Church. His conversion story, "A Triumph and a Tragedy," is published in Surprised by Truth. Besides being an author, Jimmy is the Senior Apologist at Catholic Answers, a contributing editor to Catholic Answers Magazine, and a weekly guest on "Catholic Answers Live."
View all posts by Jimmy Akin
Yes! There is a Santa Claus
I feel like a kid at Christmas!
TLM Real Soon Now™.
It’s not in the proposition, it’s in the execution…stay tuned.
A “Universal Indult” will be a good thing. But let’s not get ahead of our selves. Let’s see what the document actually says before getting too excited.
I’m dreaming of a Tridentine Christmas, just like the ones my grandparents used to know….
I have been praying my Rosary to tatters over the freeing of the TLM!!!
Pope St. Pius V, pray for us; pray for Pope Benedict XVI and so help him to make the most God pleasing decision regarding the TLM and the reform of the modern Roman Rite; pray for bishops and priests and “liturgists” throughout the world and so help them to humbly and faithfully follow the instructions and lead of the Holy Father; pray for us lay persons in the Latin Church so that we might grown in devotion and faithfulness as we assist at Holy Mass, whatever the rite, and that charity and patience might rule in our words, attitudes, and actions.
Amen!
It is my great hope that a liturgy as beautiful and traditional as the one in the following video might in my lifetime be celebrated at my parish and many, many other parishes throughout the USA and the whole world: Missa Cantata for the Last Sunday after Pentecost.
Note that there is some helpful info and links in the video’s description which is provided to the right of the video-display widget (you may need to click “all >>” to see the whole description). The links will point you to texts of the Latin prayers in the TLM and English translations of the same. I am not a member or supporter of the SSPX, but all the same, I think this video has real value in demonstrating the beauty of the Traditional Roman Rite of Mass. If you don’t speak French you may want to skip past the homily which is about 11 minutes long, though much beautiful footage of the parish’s architecture is displayed during that time.
Gloria in Excelsis Deo!
We at St. Patrick’s in New Orleans have been praying for this for many, many years. I only hope the Holy Father is strong in this. Maybe many young people will be able to see a well done High Mass at Easter.
The Holy Spirit is sweeping the church clean and a new dawn is breaking.
We’ve had the blessing of a Tridentine Mass here in the Diocese of Maine since the first indult was given and
the Tridentine Mass, as I have experienced it, needs some wireless microphones! Can’t hear what the priest is saying to follow along in the 1962 Missal. Just because the Tridentine Mass was established in the 1570’s shouldn’t mean we have to exist as it was 1570. I’ve attended more vibrant Masses at the hospital chapel with the volunteers and the retirees from the assisted living home across the street.
I think it would be great to see the TLM ‘free’ again. However, I don’t think there is going to be a great rush in MANY parishes and places to embrace it. I suspect in many areas, the Mass said will continue to be Novus Ordo, with ‘happy-clappy’ music. complete with many ‘senior ladies’ acting as Eucharistic ministers dressed in stretch pants–or mini skirts. (Don’t laugh–I’ve seen both!)
Hopefully the competition from Tridentine Masses will motivate priests to start celebrating the Novus Ordo more properly too. It’s not that the Tridentine Mass is immune to liturgical abuses (an issue long before Vatican II), but it’s harder to get away with screwing it up. The Novus Ordo done right is a beautiful thing in itself — when anyone bothers.
Will this really make a big differance insofar as the implementation of the Tridentine Mass?
In my Diocese the Bishop and the majority of pastors disaprove of most forms of Catholic Tradition,Gregorian chant,Exposition,and Benediction,Stations of the Cross,not to mention the Tridentine Rite.
Does anyone know if there will be anything addressing this matter in the Motu Proprio?
I feel most Bishops and pastors in the USA are of this mindset.They disobey the Holy Father in many things He promulgates,why should this be any different?
God bless you all
Sorry, I forgot to post my ‘name’ to the above comment!
Hopefully the competition from Tridentine Masses will motivate priests to start celebrating the Novus Ordo more properly too. It’s not that the Tridentine Mass is immune to liturgical abuses (an issue long before Vatican II), but it’s harder to get away with screwing it up. The Novus Ordo done right is a beautiful thing in itself — when anyone bothers.
MenTaLguY,
You just honed into one of the very reasons why I used to attend the Tridentine Mass some years ago until the priest that used to say it unfortunately retired (good for the priest though since he was fairly advanced in years, but unfortunate for those of us who enjoyed attending his Masses).
Back then, if I had actually found a church that properly celebrated the Novus Ordo Mass, it wouldn’t have been the case that I would’ve actually attended a Tridentine Mass (so, in some respect, I’m glad I didn’t).
The point is, it seemed more often than not that a Catholic church was NOT actually celebrating the Novus Ordo Missae the way it was intended to be celebrated.
They disobey the Holy Father in many things He promulgates,why should this be any different?
Dan Hunter:
Not to be cynical, but this is perhaps the very reason why I’m not so overjoyed with the news.
With more and more dissension apparent in the ranks of the Catholic Church in America, no doubt, there will not be the acceptance such that the Tridentine Latin Mass will actually make it back into the main.
By the way, it’s probably misleading to refer to the Tridentine rite as “The Latin Mass”, since Sacrosanctum Concilium requires:
Additionally, restrictions on the Tridentine Mass would seem to be be contraindicated by the same document:
More letter, less “spirit”, please. Not that the letter is as forceful as one might like sometimes:
I’m left with the distinct impression that someone read the original draft, thought, “Oh no you don’t!”, and inserted the “when necessary” and “carefully in the light of sound tradition”. But even that sentence is good if followed obediently and in good faith. It’s not as if the more forceful instructions have been observed any better.
Maybe we should use this combox to offer suggestions on ways to help our parishes implement the Tridentine Rite and/or ways to have the Pauline Rite more faithfully celebrated.
I suggest preparing ourselves to be ready to volunteer to help our parish priests. Perhaps if we have resources to offer and are willing to help teach at our parishes, our pastors might be more receptive.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
I suggest preparing ourselves to be ready to volunteer to help our parish priests. Perhaps if we have resources to offer and are willing to help teach at our parishes, our pastors might be more receptive.
Innocencio,
It depends on the type of priest you might have at your parish.
If it’s one of those rogue so-called ‘Catholic’ priests who actually loves to ‘rock-n-roll’ during the Novus Ordo Mass, then fugetaboutit!
Esau,
“We do nothing. God does everything. All glory must be returned to Him. God has not called me to be successful. He called me to be faithful.” -Blessed Mother Teresa
“We too can respond to that call with faithfulness and zeal of Mother Teresa and then we too can help change the face of our world.” -Sr. M. Sabita
Again, it was only a suggestion. Most priests only hear complaints no matter what they do. Rather than point out the mess it might be better to offer to help clean it up. And you are correct some priest might say no thank you but we won’t know unless we offer.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Good point, Innocencio.
Actually, it is better to try than sit by passively, doing nothing to improve the situation.
Sorry to be a ‘wet blanket’ so-to-speak.
I guess I was just so disappointed regarding a personal encounter with such clergy whose only regard it seemed was to “look cool” for the young folks at Church while committing atrocities against Christ in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
But, that need not apply to all cases since there may, in fact, be those clergy out there who perhaps may actually lend a willing ear to certain sound suggestions.
As mentioned before, not all clergy are scoundrels — just the 1 out of the every 12!
Esau,
I agree with your statement about the rock and roll priests.
At my parish the pastor has fired my mother as choir director because she wanted to give pride of place to Gregorian chant with the scola in the liturgy.
Innocencio,during and after her dismissal,for adhering to Romes command to keep music sacred,she attempted to help the pastor understand The Churches Traditions and Gregorian Chant.He wanted to have nothing to do with it or her.
He told her,and I quote,”I want all music to be hot off the presses and preferably from Haugen and Haas”.
He then told her”I never want to hear from Jeanne Hunter again”.
Since then,3 years ago,My mom has been trying to gently help him with music liturgy and mailing him statements by the various Holy Fathers,including Pope Benedicts pronouncements on Sacred music.
This pastor repeatedly rejects her assistance.Many pastors have been offered such help but they still maintain their own agenda,which is not in accordance with Jesus
God bless you all.
At my parish the pastor has fired my mother as choir director because she wanted to give pride of place to Gregorian chant with the scola in the liturgy.
Dan Hunter:
I sympathize with you!!!
Gregorian chant not given pride of place, are you kidding me?!?!?!
What, like those hyped-up, disco worship music they seem to play at these Masses should be given greater honor than SACRED MUSIC THAT’S A PART OF OUR CATHOLIC HERITAGE!!!!
That pastor has serious issues, if you ask me!
Dan Hunter,
God bless your mother for her faithfulness.
I would guess we have all experienced these type of situations and feel the same sort of sadness that our Blessed Lord felt when He was ignored. Charity will prevail, even if it is not in our lifetime here on earth.
The quotation from Blessed Mother Teresa is, I think, the right approach.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
We at St. Patrick’s in New Orleans have been praying for this for many, many years. I only hope the Holy Father is strong in this. Maybe many young people will be able to see a well done High Mass at Easter.
Hi, Deacon Danny. I received my First Communion at St. Patrick’s in New Orleans. I would love to attend a Tridentine Mass there. Keep us posted as to when this happens.
Of course none of us happy about the prospect of this indult expect liturgical reform overnight. But just like a pebble starting an avalanche…
So let me get this right. The only difference between what we have now, where less than 50% of the diocese even have 1 indult, to the so called universal indult is that a priest can, with no permission from his Bishop, go ahead and say the Traditional latin mass. Why would he really want to do that? If he loved the Traditional Mass so much would he not be in the FSSP or even SSPX, SSPV or CMRI?
This is another farce. If Paul VI could overnight as my parents have told me introduced the New Mass with no advance warning, except a few handouts at the back of the church for a month leading up to the debacle of 1970, then the Pope could do the same today
This is another farce. If Paul VI could overnight as my parents have told me introduced the New Mass with no advance warning, except a few handouts at the back of the church for a month leading up to the debacle of 1970, then the Pope could do the same today
Why am I not surprised????
I was merely counting the minutes…
John,
If he loved the Traditional Mass so much would he not be in the FSSP or even SSPX, SSPV or CMRI?
One could have many reasons for not joining FSSP that have nothing to do with a preference for a Traditional Mass. As for why one would not join SSPX, SSPV or CMRI, the answer should be fairly obvious, in that some people would rather be Catholic (defined in this instance as being in good standing with the Church) than look Catholic.
If he loved the Traditional Mass so much would he not be in the FSSP…
John:
Just in case you didn’t know —
The Fraternity of St Peter (FSSP) is a Society of Apostolic Life of Pontifical right, founded in 1988 by His Holiness Pope John Paul II. The priests of the Fraternity offer the traditional Latin Mass daily (Roman Missal of 1962) and provide pastoral care for the faithful using the traditional sacramental forms loved by the Saints and so highly prized by the Church.
…
The Fraternity was founded on July 18, 1988 at the Abbey of Hauterive (Switzerland) by a dozen priests and a score of seminarians. Shortly after the Fraternity’s foundation and following upon a request by Cardinal Ratzinger, Bishop Joseph Stimpfle of Augsburg, Germany granted the Fraternity a home in Wigratzbad, a Marian shrine in Bavaria that now lodges the Fraternity’s European seminary.
…
And to think JP II and B16 were so much against the TLM!
John,
The same thing happened to my parents in 1970.
No warning,blindsided them,hit them low and took the legs out from under them like chainshot.
This process is not pastoral,so therefore should not be replicated for the reinstitution of the Pian Rite.But an agressive reeducation program is indeed necessary and quite possible.
The laity were surprised before,and most thought it unwarranted.The Church can move forward and make the correction in a relatively short amount of time but with,unlike in the late 60’s,pastoral care.
God bless you all.
Catholic News Service has just broken its media blackout of the official announcement of the Motu Proprio.
His Emminence Cardinal Medina has announced The decree will be issued shortly for the Freeing of the Tridentine Rite without the permission of the local bishop.Deo Gratias
Catherine L:
St. Patrick’s in New Orleans is an indult parish, so there’s a Latin Mass in the traditional (“Tridentine”) rite every Sunday at 9.30. This Christmas, midnight Mass also will be in the old rite. Please pay us a visit, as Mass (in both new and old rite) is celebrated there with great splendor and reverence.
Disclaimer: I was raised Protestant and converted to Catholicism at age 22. I have never been to a Tridentine Rite mass.
That being said…
If I’d grown up with the Tridentine Rite, I could see the familiarity being a draw, but for me, who has never heard the Mass in anything but English, the whole debate about the Tridentine Rite vs. Novus Ordo leaves me rather puzzled. What is the appeal of going to a Mass said in a different and completely incomprehensible language? I don’t think I’d enjoy the Mass as much if I had no clue what the priest was saying the entire time.
I am NOT trying to be a troll, and perhaps I just need to experience a Tridentine Rite mass for myself before I “get” the whole controversy. But for now, I enjoy understanding the liturgy, and I don’t see the appeal of going to a service where I wouldn’t understand it. *shrug*
“But for now, I enjoy understanding the liturgy, and I don’t see the appeal of going to a service where I wouldn’t understand it.”
There’s nothing unreasonable in your point of view.
But your words do remind me of something I read the other day at Father Zuhlsdorf’s weblog, “What Does the Prayer Really Say?” He mentioned one time when he offered a Mass in Rome where other priests were offering Masses at nearby altars. So as not to interfere with the other Masses, Father spoke quietly for most of the Mass. At the end, a lady complained to him, saying something like, “Father, you were speaking so quietly that I couldn’t hear what you were saying.” Father replied that he had to be quiet for the sake of the other Masses being offered at the same time, and added, “Besides, most of the time I wasn’t talking to you anyway.”
So, it’s nice for us to be able to overhear what the priest is telling God, but it’s not necessary, just as it is not necessary for anyone to be present at a Mass but the priest.
“Catholic News Service has just broken its media blackout of the official announcement of the Motu Proprio.”
What media blackout at Catholic News Service? CNA is always late in reporting news.
Another thing: although only this week did we get “official” reference to the Motu Proprio, reliable, knowledgeable Catholic officials and bishops and priests had already gone public about it weeks ago, as one could see by checking Catholic News Service’s website. So, this is official confirmation, but it’s not the first time mainstream Catholic media have reported on the Motu Proprio.
JoAnna,
The Tridentine Mass is not just in a foreign language.It is a drastically different liturgy than the one you are used to.
The words used in it all transcend the banal and mundane and point us to the true essence of the Mass:Christ’s Sacrifice.
I am 39 and just began,two years ago, to attend this lovely Mass.I was born in 1966 and had not grown up with,or experienced it at any point in my life before 2004.
The official language of the Church is Latin.Therefore we are trully worshiping as the Church has worshiped since the year 400.
Latin for the most part is an unused language outside the Church and science,so it locks the Doctrine or teaching of the Church into its Liturgy without the meanings changing as modern languages change.
I,and you can easily follow the priest offering the Holy Mass by praying along in a missal,purchased at any religous store that sells the missal of 1962.This is the last year that the Tridentine mass was changed.
On the left side of the missal is written the Sacred Latin and on the right is the vernacular,English for Americans.
It is infinitly more gorgeous and uplifting than the new mass.It makes you feel like the veil of time has been lifted and you step into eternity,neither past or future,but an eternal sacred present.
After five Tridentine mass’s I culd follow along perfectly and was calm.
God Bless you,and you can find out where there is a Tridentine mass close to you by logging on to “Ecclesia Dei” and looking for the mass locations.
Joanna,
If I’d grown up with the Tridentine Rite, I could see the familiarity being a draw, but for me, who has never heard the Mass in anything but English, the whole debate about the Tridentine Rite vs. Novus Ordo leaves me rather puzzled. What is the appeal of going to a Mass said in a different and completely incomprehensible language? I don’t think I’d enjoy the Mass as much if I had no clue what the priest was saying the entire time.
I am NOT trying to be a troll, and perhaps I just need to experience a Tridentine Rite mass for myself before I “get” the whole controversy. But for now, I enjoy understanding the liturgy, and I don’t see the appeal of going to a service where I wouldn’t understand it. *shrug*
the whole debate about the Tridentine Rite vs. Novus Ordo leaves me rather puzzled
Joanna, your puzzlement is understandable. The controversy isn’t over one specific aspect, but has been complicated with several factors.
The language, Latin or the vernacular is just one factor. Indeed, the Novus Ordo Mass can be said in Latin.
There were many changes, which were not implemented well. Nonetheless, the Novus Ordo is the normative Mass, the ordinary Mass.
Peoples’ dissatisfaction with the implementation is a large factor. The indult Tridentine was originally granted for those with a preference or attachment, I can’t remember the exact wording off the top of my head, for the Tridentine Mass. One is not “better” than the other. (which will draw a lot of fire, but that involves the question of the Holy Spirit guiding the Church)
“Getting the controversy” is useful only in leading to a deeper understanding of Mass.
Don’t get too caught up in the controversy. It is wonderful that you’ve come to the fullness of Catholicism and deepening of faith.
Esau
FSSP was only created to counter the growing number of priests who were joining the SSPX and happened right after the excommunication of the Great Archbishop Lefebvre, who will in a generation or two be a saint as St Anathasius was during the Aryan heresy
It was not due to their “love” of the Traditional Mass, but a political ploy
If they loved it so much-are you not aware that B16 has never even performed this mass? He has worshipped towards mecca with Moslems, met with Rabbis in synagogues, met with schismatic orthodox, but has never ever performed a TLM in public at least
Figure that one out?????????
not the “question” of the Holy Spirit guidance, but of accepting that the Holy Spirit guided the Church during Vatican II
MaryKay,
How do you define “better”.
Thank you and God bless you.
When was the Latin Mass “abolished” as many of the reports state? As I recall, Vatican II simply permitted celebration of the Eucharistic Liturgy in the local, or vernacular, language. If Latin had been “outlawed” Popes of the last forty years were all in big trouble.
Disclaimer: I was raised Protestant and converted to Catholicism at age 22. I have never been to a Tridentine Rite mass.
What is the appeal of going to a Mass said in a different and completely incomprehensible language? I don’t think I’d enjoy the Mass as much if I had no clue what the priest was saying the entire time.
JoAnna:
I’m glad you raised this.
On another thread, I tried to bring this up time and again to JV, knowing how other folks may actually view the TLM through today’s lense, especially in terms of our young people and those coming from outside of the Church as well as those within who may not have such an appreciation for the TLM or who may actually find it very difficult to relate to due to its ancient elements.
Personally, for me, it is due to these same very ancient elements which make it ever uniquely precious, unburdened with all of today’s innovations (with respect to how the rite is celebrated, its place in Church history, the Latin used which goes back to the 4th century when it officially became the Language of the Christian Church, the profound reverence observed within the rite, etc.); thus, why, to me, the TLM holds a place of great significance – especially since it’s a part of our Catholic Heritage.
However, if the rite of Mass that would have continued unto this day was the TLM instead of the Novus Ordo Missae (which is the Pauline rite celebrated in the vernacular, which is the normative Mass of today), I am not so sure that there would have been the same great number of conversions into the Catholic Church that we’re actually witnessing today from our seperated Protestant brethren and other non-Catholic neighbors, even Atheism.
Moreover, I would think that because of the very point that you’ve raised here, in terms of the number of folks exiting the Catholic Church today, that, instead, we might actually find even greater numbers leaving the Church because of the great difficulty many may experience in trying to relate to something as ancient and sacred as this had the TLM continued to be the normative Mass today. Today’s society is too much set into a more fast-food, cater-to-every-taste, think-outside-the-box, go-for-what’s modern, dispense-with-the-old, authority-is-bad, attention-deficient type of mentality, among other things, that having to deal with something like this in our modern world today, especially something that’s in a different, not to mention, dead language, would actually stretch the limits of many folks out there.
Yet, this does not dismiss the fact that the TLM is a rite of Mass, regardless, and one that deserves the utmost respect; not to mention, a part of our long Catholic history.
The problem is that the reverence and respect that’s actually observed in this rite of Mass seems to be wholly absent in the Novus Ordo in terms of how certain priests are celebrating the N.O. Mass these days. Remember, the Mass is not simply a worship service, as some Protestants would happen to be used to in their churches. It goes far beyond that; it is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass where in it, our Lord comes to us in the Holy Eucharist.
Italics Off!
JOHN:
are you not aware that B16 has never even performed this mass? He has worshipped towards mecca with Moslems, met with Rabbis in synagogues, met with schismatic orthodox, but has never ever performed a TLM in public at least
B16 never celebrated the TLM????
What’s the following then??
“There have been false alarms before, not least because within the Curia there are those genuinely well-disposed to the Latin Mass, those who are against and those who like to move groups within the Church like pieces on a chessboard,” a source told The Times. “But hopes have been raised with the new pope. It would fit with what he has said and done on the subject. He celebrated in the old rite, when Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2397919,00.html
JOHN:
I can give you more than just that —
Also, do you not even know that he has been a staunch advocate of celebrating Mass Ad orientem?
Tridentine Mass Liberalization…
So they’re not just trying to force inclusive language into the Latin mass?
If they loved it so much-are you not aware that B16 has never even performed this mass? He has worshipped towards mecca with Moslems, met with Rabbis in synagogues, met with schismatic orthodox, but has never ever performed a TLM in public at least.
http://www.benediktxvi.ru/foto-pontifik/trident-foto.html
He celebrated the Old Rite many times publicly. Maybe that’s why he was elected Pope? He did not worship toward Mecca, he prayed toward Jerusalem. “Pray always”. Nice vestments too, if you look at the pictures from the link I provided!
http://www.benediktxvi.ru/foto-pontifik/trident-foto.html
He celebrated the Old Rite many times publicly. Maybe that’s why he was elected Pope? He did not worship toward Mecca, he prayed toward Jerusalem. “Pray always”. Nice vestments too, if you look at the pictures from the link I provided!
Great Link, Andrew!
Yeah, I agree, REALLY nice vestments!
“The official language of the Church is Latin. Therefore we are trully worshiping as the Church has worshiped since the year 400.”
You mean how a particular part of the Church has worshiped, since liturgies in Greek and Arabic and Coptic are just as ancient, if not more so. In addition, there have been many developments since the year 400, as well as different rites even in the West (for example, the Sarum). That’s why Pope Pius had to discontinue these other rites before consolidating the Tridentine.
“It is infinitly more gorgeous and uplifting than the new mass. It makes you feel like the veil of time has been lifted and you step into eternity,neither past or future,but an eternal sacred present.”
Perhaps, subjectively to you, but actually this objectively true of any mass, Tridentine, vernacular, Byzantine, etc…One should be careful in mixing subjective appreciations of different rites with the unified sacramental reality of every mass.
John,
Why not let Pope Benedict XVI speak for himself about the Tridentine Rite and the FSSP?
Also the FSSP: Declaration of intention by the founders, 2 July 1988
“are you not aware that B16 has never even performed this mass?”
I would be really impressed if you admitted you were wrong. I am not holding my breath.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
John,
Great Archbishop Lefebvre, who will in a generation or two be a saint as St Anathasius was during the Aryan heresy
If by “saint” you mean he will be in heaven, I hope and pray that you are correct.
If by “saint” you mean that he will be canonized by the Catholic Church, the Church is not in the habit of recognizing as saints those whose defining characteristics are disobedience and schism. As for me, I’ll stick the late Holy Father you despise so much, the real “Great” John Paul II, and his successor.
And I would suggest that you study the life of St. Athanasius a little more closely, if you have that much trouble distinguishing him from a schismatic Bishop.
Dan Hunter,
What part of One is not “better” than the other did you not understand?
TLM brings up a questions? How do you say “AARPyville” in Latin???
Realist wrote: TLM brings up a questions? How do you say “AARPyville” in Latin???
May Our Lord bless you, Realist, and may the prayers of the Blessed Virgin help to draw you closer to the Sacred Heart of Our Eucharistic Lord.
I am age 30, born more than 5 years after the Mass of Paul VI became the normative Eucharistic liturgy for the Latin Church. I never assisted at nor watched on video a Tridentine Mass until three years ago. Since then I have made an independent study of the liturgy of the Latin Church — from devotional, theological, and historical perspectives — and I long for a return of the TLM at my parish and others throughout the world. I have a deep respect and appreciation for the Novus Ordo Mass, as the graces that flow from it (and theoretically every valid Mass of the Catholic Church) have transformed my life.
Yet, still I pray for the return of the TLM, and I’m more than three decades shy of AARP membership. What say you to that?
I’m at least a couple of decades from retirement age, myself (though I don’t plan to retire), and I would welcome the return of the TLM, though I know very orthodox, devout Catholics who have found the TLM hard to follow and prefer a well done N.O. mass.
It could be just a matter of attending often enough to become accustomed to it. I know it took me a while to catch on to the N.O. mass.
I’ve never attended a TLM, but would like to.
The fact that it irritates aging hippies is just a bonus.
Are you sure that is a true traditional latin mass with priests standing ready to hand out the eucharist to the lay persons in their hands? Where is the altar rail? I see nothing there except something in Greek or whatever saying he is performing the Traditional latin mass
This is a farce-Sorry
Brother said:
“If by “saint” you mean that he will be canonized by the Catholic Church, the Church is not in the habit of recognizing as saints those whose defining characteristics are disobedience and schism. As for me, I’ll stick the late Holy Father you despise so much, the real “Great” John Paul II, and his successor.”
Well I guess you have no knowledge of St. Athanasius, St. Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, and St. Joan of Arc, all of whom were excommunicated by the Pope and later canonized as the church realized that she erred in judgement and these persons were fighters for the faith
Do you actually thing JPII would lay his life down against Bin Laden if the need arose or would he go and kiss the koran and worship with him in a mosque to “Allah” and face mecca? I would think the latter
In the face of your enemies, in the face of harassment, ridicule, and doubt, you held firm in your faith. Even in your abandonment, alone and without friends, you held firm in your faith. Even as you faced your own mortality, you held firm in your faith. I pray that I may be as bold in my beliefs as you, St. Joan. I ask that you ride alongside me in my own battles. Help me be mindful that what is worthwhile can be won when I persist. Help me hold firm in my faith. Help me believe in my ability to act well and wisely. Amen.
Prayer to Joan of Arc for Faith
John,
First,
1951 June 29: Georg and Josef Ratzinger are ordained into the priesthood by Cardinal Faulhaber, in the Cathedral at Freising, on the Feast of Saints Peter and Paul.
So of course Pope Benedict then Fr. Ratzinger celebrated the Tridentine Rite.
Second, I challenge you to provide documentation that a pope excommunicated any of the named saints. I await you response and remind you that it is a necessary part of your faith to submit to the pope.
“Furthermore we declare, state and define that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of all human beings that they submit to the Roman Pontiff.” POPE BONIFACE VIII Unam Sanctam (November 18, 1302 AD)
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
For all interrested:
St. Patrick’s in New Orleans offers the traditional Mass every Sunday at 9:30 AM. On the first Sunday of every month we have a full traditional High Mass with full choir, Deacon, Sub-Deacon, MC and servers. It is well attended and beautiful. If you go, get there 1/4 hour before Mass and take a Missalette from Ushers. It will Help. God Bless
“Documentation”, Inocencio? Hobby Horses *are* “documentation”!
TLM brings up a questions? How do you say “AARPyville” in Latin???
Realist,
I, myself, am decades, decades, decades, decades away from Retirement, and so your generalization of folks who actually advocate it here is quite ridiculous, not to mention, pathetic!
Are you sure that is a true traditional latin mass with priests standing ready to hand out the eucharist to the lay persons in their hands? Where is the altar rail? I see nothing there except something in Greek or whatever saying he is performing the Traditional latin mass
This is a farce-Sorry
SO DECLARES POPE JOHN JTNOVA@OPTONLINE.NET!
Only he, and he alone, can declare what is a Traditional Latin Mass. Ratzinger is, as John declares, a farce since he did not satisfy HIS definition of a TLM!
HE IS THE ONE WHO BINDS ON EARTH WHAT IS TO BE BOUND IN HEAVEN ALSO, SAYS EVEN CHRIST, OUR LORD, HIMSELF!
P.S. You know, funny, but I seem to recall a story of a Catholic chaplain in the days of World War II who actually celebrated the Tridentine Mass outside of the Catholic Church. But, since there were no Communion rails where he celebrated it, he must have celebrated the Pauline Rite Mass (although, that rite wouldn’t be in existence until years later)!
How do you say “Blog Hog” in Latin??
How do you say “Blog Hog” in Latin??
Dunno. Blogus Harliem Davidsonium?
Harliem Davidsonium
Top of the Breed!
About what I said:
I seem to recall a story of a Catholic chaplain in the days of World War II who actually celebrated the Tridentine Mass outside of the Catholic Church.
Here’s my picture — and, look, no Communion rails!
http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/pacificwar/255.jpg
JOHN:
About what you said:
Are you sure that is a true traditional latin mass with priests standing ready to hand out the eucharist to the lay persons in their hands? Where is the altar rail?
Here’s another ‘heretic’ for you:
Using a canvas tarpaulin for a church and packing cases for an altar, a Catholic Navy chaplain holds mass for Marines at Saipan in memory of those who lost their lives during the initial landings. June 1944.
http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/pacificwar/255.jpg
More heretics:
A Roman Catholic army chaplain celebrating a Mass for Union soldiers and officers during the American Civil War (1861-1865).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:American_Civil_War_Chaplain.JPG
Esau
I am asking Mr Akin to reprimand you for giving out my e-mail address without my permission
Your display of uncharity just goes to show your frustration in a one on one debate, as I have 1962 years of church history and teaching and you only have 40 odd plus as you despise anything pre Vatican II
IF I receive unsolicited e-mails I will be left but no choice to report you to the proper authorities as that is a federal crime if you did not know
Mary kay,
The part of “one is not better than another”,that eludes’s me is this statement taken in its entirety.
The quality of the Tridentine mass is clearly and objectively of a nature which is surpassingly more beautiful in its liturgy than the majority of Novus Ordo mass’s.
I said as POPE he has never celebrated the Tridentine Mass nor did JPII
I would think for a man approaching 80 ordained how many years ago, the concoction of a mass that is celebrated today thank the Lord did not exist
Need I spell every word out for those who pick and chose what part of a post they want to use?
Once again, JPII worshipped with pygmies, Hindus, Jews, Orthodox schismatics and Moslems kissing their Koran, while B16 has done some of the same-but none have ever celebrated a TLM for all the world to see as pontiff
Clearer?
John,
You are the person who made your emai address available by entering it the email address box, so turn yourself into the proper authorities or remove it.
I am waiting for your documentation or for you to admit that you are wrong again.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
John,
*sigh*
*sigh*
*sigh*
Esau
So you are going to compare a chaplain in the midst of WWII with “Cardinal Ratzinger” who if he really wanted to celebrate the TLM in proper form, could have found a church with altar rails, some actually still exist in Europe as I can attest, and not have communion standing in the hand to hand to hand…..but what the heck, they innovate the New Mass why not the TLM
Scary!!
Oh really Inocencio
I dont see your e-mail address nor do most care to publish others, since it is yellow as Jimmy has required, it is a required field and I put it in not thinking those as desparate as Esau would need to publish it
As far as documentation, I think I made myself quite clear on my posts above
Enjoy the Kumbaya New Mass, it has done wonders for the faith
Toldja, Inocencio.
JOHN:
Do you actually thing JPII would lay his life down against Bin Laden if the need arose or would he go and kiss the koran and worship with him in a mosque to “Allah” and face mecca? I would think the latter
Isn’t it a fact that JP II actually risked his very life all those times he went to be close to his people, the people of God, the people of the Church, all around the world in all the visits he made to all of the Faithful?
Did the thought ever cross your mind the enormous risks to his very life in all these journeys?
Did it even cross your mind that it was because he, in fact, wanted to be so close to his people that he was nearly assassinated and killed?
Don’t even ‘dis’ JP II. I knew him ever since I was young and the rosary he personally gave me I will forever cherish among my memories of him!
Don’t you even dare condemn to Hell by whatever preposterous power or whatever bogus authority you believe to stand on, a Man of such immense Christian Faith and holiness such as he!
There is nothing you could ever do, even if you had multiple lifetimes, that could ever match even an iota of all his achievements, both the triumphs and the tremendous suffering he faced and undertook in his own life.
The Cross Pope John Paul II carried on his shoulders all through the dark and brutal days of the Nazis, through the oppresive period of Communist Poland, to the days of which, in the end, left him at such a mercilessly incapacitated state; I doubt that you could muster, even with all your strength, to bear on your own shoulders even a smidgen of all that suffering he endured in his life!
He was a Man of God no matter what your little mind thinks of him, and, in time, he will be recognized accordingly, if not here, most definitely in Heaven, by our Heavenly Father!
Does the Tridentine Mass really have to be in Latin? Could the same Rite be performed in the vernacular?
This could bring back the old Rite while maintaining the use of the vernacular that everyone is used to. I believe there was a switch to a dialog Mass in which the people responded instead of the altar servers. Couldn’t that be done in English, Spanish, Tagalog, etc…?
Then it would be the best of both worlds.
JOHN:
and not have communion standing in the hand to hand to hand…..
You mean to say that just because there are no communion rails, this would actually prevent the priest from serving Holy Communion into the person’s mouth???? What kind of reasoning is that???
John,
Oh really Inocencio
I dont see your e-mail address
Click on my name and you will see my email address just like yours, so you are wrong again.
nor do most care to publish others, since it is yellow as Jimmy has required, it is a required field
Wrong again! Look at how many poster have not put in an email address.
and I put it in not thinking those as desparate as Esau would need to publish it
You should remove it right now if you don’t want people to have it.
As far as documentation, I think I made myself quite clear on my posts above
You have no documentation, none, that any of the saints you named were excommunicated by a pope. We know it and you know it. So you are…drum roll…wrong again!
Enjoy the Kumbaya New Mass, it has done wonders for the faith
And the Tridentine Rite has done wonders for your obedience and charity.
Take care and God bless,
Inocecnio
J+M+J
JOHN:
I am asking Mr Akin to reprimand you for giving out my e-mail address without my permission
Clearly, you do not know who I am or what I do.
Esau
One KNEELS at the Traditional Latin Mass as we once did for a millenia or two, we dont stand
It is clear in sacred scripture that give the foundation for kneeling is found in Saint Paul’s Letter to the Philippians, 2:6-11, where we are told that, “at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father”.
But unfortuatly Esau and the New Mass refuse to kneel when they pass the tabernacle, when the receive our Lord, or when they invoke his name
JOHN:
Your display of uncharity…
And what, your calumny of such holy men like JP II and B16 is not uncharitable????
One KNEELS at the Traditional Latin Mass as we once did for a millenia or two, we dont stand
It is clear in sacred scripture that give the foundation for kneeling is found in Saint Paul’s Letter to the Philippians, 2:6-11, where we are told that, “at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father”.
But unfortuatly Esau and the New Mass refuse to kneel when they pass the tabernacle, when the receive our Lord, or when they invoke his name
That’s right!!!!
NO WONDER THE APOSTLES WERE ACTUALLY FOUND KNEELING WHEN THEY FIRST RECEIVED THE HOLY EUCHARIST!!!!
It actually clearly says so in all the accounts of Mark, Matthew and Luke:
Kneeling, the Apostles received the Body and Blood of Our Lord, Jesus Christ!
“But unfortuatly(sic) Esau and the New Mass *refuse* to kneel when they pass the tabernacle, when the(sic) receive our Lord, or when they invoke his(sic) name(sic).”
1) How do you know what Esau does?
2) How is a Mass capable of an action?
Bill912,
You are right we should not confuse John with facts.
I hope you are having a blessed Advent!
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
“But unfortuatly(sic) Esau and the New Mass *refuse* to kneel when they pass the tabernacle, when the(sic) receive our Lord, or when they invoke his(sic) name(sic).”
1) How do you know what Esau does?
2) How is a Mass capable of an action?
Thanks, bill912.
By what he stated above as well as his mentioning “…I will be left but no choice to report you to the proper authorities as that is a federal crime if you did not know”, clearly, he doesn’t know me at all or what I actually do.
I wonder what the vow of ‘obedience’ means to pius the xer’s? Or what the word ‘magisterium’ means to them. I often marvel at their ability to ‘pick and choose’ in order to define ‘valid’ and ‘faithful’ ‘legitimate’ ‘papal succession’ in their own terms. And kudos to the diocese of Lincoln Nebraska, by the way.
JOHN:
Esau …*refuse* to kneel
Actually, it was JP II himself who taught me when I was young the importance of kneeling and praying to Our Lord…
I would be more circumspect about assuming things about me that you might not know for a fact.
John,
From DA RULZ:
“Commenters whose interaction on the blog consists principally of discussions of the same subject over and over (e.g., the writings of John Dominic Crossan, whether the pope is the pope, or the evils of Vatican II, the current rite of Mass, or a particular political figure or party–or any other single subject) are being rude. Conversation involves an ability to talk about more than one thing, not an obsessive harping on one subject. Say your piece and move on, per Rule 2.”
‘Nuff said.
Inocencio
I guess you did not know that Pope Eugenius IV did nothing to stop the trial and though it depends on who you believe, she grew up in a time of anti popes (John XXIII for one , the first one and possibly the second as history shall clear up for us) and refused to submit to the pope. Only 23 or so years later the pope at the time (a true pope) revised this excommunciation. The trial may not have been carried out by the church, but the Pope did not stop the murder of her, nor did it stop the excommunication of a holy man in the Archbishop who only wanted to worship as Catholics had done for centuries
There are hundreds of links on this so anyone I put up you will say is no good, so search for yourself
JP II himself excommunicated the leaders of SSPX.
If you are going to invoke the Last Supper as most irreverent Novus Ordo supporters do, we may as well say mass sitting around a square table (the DaVinci picture by most accounts are wrong) and have a sader and pass the eucharist from one person to another as the Protestants do at their masses as they pass the basket around, but was that not the intention of the New Mass, to become “More Protestant”?
Get over it, you always try to defend the irreverence of the New Mass by talking about the last supper-but Jesus and the Apostles were JEWS at this point in their lives and Our Lord had yet to even by crucified and rise! Learn your faith please
…you despise anything pre Vatican II
Despise anything pre Vatican II???
Have you even read anything I’ve written???
Also, it appears you, yourself, despise things pre Vatican II by your very disobedience to the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church and refuse to hear even Christ Himself, who gave authority to the Pope and his successors as enshrined in all the teachings of the Church going back to the days of the Early Church, even back to the time of Christ!
John,
I guess you did not know that Pope Eugenius IV did nothing to stop the trial and though it depends on who you believe, she grew up in a time of anti popes (John XXIII for one , the first one and possibly the second as history shall clear up for us) and refused to submit to the pope.
Wrong again!
From the Catholic Encyclopedia @ newadvent.org:
The first trial had been conducted without reference to the pope, indeed it was carried out in defiance of St. Joan’s appeal to the head of the Church. Now an appellate court constituted by the pope, after long inquiry and examination of witnesses, reversed and annulled the sentence pronounced by a local tribunal under Cauchon’s presidency.
But we have come to understand that facts mean nothing to you.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
John,
Here is your original comment:
“Well I guess you have no knowledge of St. Athanasius, St. Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, and St. Joan of Arc, all of whom were excommunicated by the Pope and later canonized as the church realized that she erred in judgement and these persons were fighters for the faith”.
Admit you were wrong about the pope excommunicating them.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
JOHN:
If you are going to invoke the Last Supper as most irreverent Novus Ordo supporters do, we may as well say mass sitting around a square table (the DaVinci picture by most accounts are wrong) and have a sader and pass the eucharist from one person to another as the Protestants do at their masses as they pass the basket around, but was that not the intention of the New Mass, to become “More Protestant”?
Get over it, you always try to defend the irreverence of the New Mass by talking about the last supper-but Jesus and the Apostles were JEWS at this point in their lives and Our Lord had yet to even by crucified and rise! Learn your faith please
More and more strawmen?????
“You always try to defend the irreverence of the New Mass by talking about the last supper???”
Where are you getting this????
Since when did I defend the irreverence of the New Mass???
Please, please read all the posts that I’ve written since, clearly, you’re making up things more and more.
“pass the eucharist from one person to another as the Protestants do at their masses”
WOW! I can’t believe it, Protestants actually do this????
Please, everyone, stop harping on the same subject.
Babys are being torn asunder in their mommys wombs.
Use this time to pray for them and their murderers.
God will take care of His Liturgy.
God bless us,everyone.
JOHN:
About your remark:
…you despise anything pre Vatican II
I guess what I wrote above (shown below for your majesty’s convenience) shows my great hatred for anything pre Vatican II, not to mention, the fact I used to attend TLM in the past!
Personally, for me, it [the TLM] is due to these same very ancient elements which make it ever uniquely precious, unburdened with all of today’s innovations (with respect to how the rite is celebrated, its place in Church history, the Latin used which goes back to the 4th century when it officially became the Language of the Christian Church, the profound reverence observed within the rite, etc.); thus, why, to me, the TLM holds a place of great significance – especially since it’s a part of our Catholic Heritage.
With respect to St. Joan of Arc,
“The new verdict overturned the original conviction and described the earlier proceeding as ‘corruption, cozenage, calumny, fraud and malice.'”
I guess that pretty much sums up Pope John the Hobby Horse’s view of Pope John Paul the Great.
Jimmy, I have never before suggested that a combox poster be banned, and I do not suggest it lightly now, but I believe that John’s continued presence here has surpassed the reasonable limits of charity.
FWIW.
John,
The Novus Ordo isn’t ‘irreverent.’
Many who offer It, however, ARE.
Brother C.,
I second that motion.
John,
The Novus Ordo isn’t ‘irreverent.’
Many who offer It, however, ARE.
THANKS, DAVID B!
I tried pointing that out earlier by saying:
Yet, this does not dismiss the fact that the TLM is a rite of Mass, regardless, and one that deserves the utmost respect; not to mention, a part of our long Catholic history.
The problem is that the reverence and respect that’s actually observed in this rite of Mass seems to be wholly absent in the Novus Ordo in terms of how certain priests are celebrating the N.O. Mass these days. Remember, the Mass is not simply a worship service, as some Protestants would happen to be used to in their churches. It goes far beyond that; it is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass where in it, our Lord comes to us in the Holy Eucharist.
PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF EVERYTHING HOLY,STOP THIS CRAZINESS.
New subject;How is incense made?
Beauuuuuutiful, Esau!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I especially like that part in bold.
Alright Dan,
What kind of sody pop do ya drink?
Dan Hunter,
PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF EVERYTHING HOLY,STOP THIS CRAZINESS.
That is exactly what we are asking John to do.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Beauuuuuutiful, Esau!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I especially like that part in bold.
Thanks David B!
Now, where’s my Russian-poisoned Strawberry milkshake, brother!?!?!? ;^)
Anyone ever had a yoo-hoo and a devil dog?
YUMMY!
Yoo-hoo? Yes. devil dog? No.
Hey Dan,
Your e-mail indicates to me that you are a woman, or a guy using a woman’s name for your e-mail. Which is it?
Sorry, that was me.
Goodness gentlemen. What happened to the subject at hand, that of the upcoming motu proprio? I for one joyfully await its release. I myself obediently accept the novus ordo as valid, however it lacks reverence and awe–at least in how it is done in most American parishes. To me, both the NO and the TLM can feed one spiritually, but the NO is spagetti and the TLM is a 7 course meal with steak. God Bless Benedict XVI.
Thank you, Susan w., for being both intelligent and respectful.
DAVID B:
Your e-mail indicates to me that you are a woman, or a guy using a woman’s name for your e-mail. Which is it?
Do you really want to ask that question given the day and age we live in????
(No offense, Dan.)
Am I the only one who is curious as to what Esau does and who he is?
He says that JPII gave him his first rosary and instructed him how to receive communion.
Intriguing to say the least.
Thanks for the cool photos Esau!
Am I the only one who is curious as to what Esau does and who he is?
He says that JPII gave him his first rosary and instructed him how to receive communion.
Isn’t it obvious? He’s Wormwood.
I don’t get it 🙁
Dr. Eric,
For a mess of pottage Esau will sell you his birthright. I would guess for a strawberry milk-shake he would tell you who he is.
Wormwood is a character in C.S. Lewis’ THE SCREWTAPE LETTERS.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
And now back to our regularly schedule post…
Motu proprio “after Christmas,” CNA reports
The apostolic exhortation on the Eucharist, according to the same sources, has already been finished by Pope Benedict XVI and is being translated into the different languages in which it will be presented. The document, which sources say will be issued after January 15, reaffirms the Church’s commitment to a celibate priesthood, encourages the use of Latin in liturgical celebrations, and even requests that seminarians learn the language as part of their formation. It will also promote the recovery of Gregorian chant and sacred polyphonic music as a replacement to modern music, which would result in a gradual elimination of musical instruments that are “inappropriate” for the solemnity and reverence of the Eucharistic celebration.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
He says that JPII gave him his first rosary and instructed him how to receive communion.
Actually, it wasn’t my ‘first’ rosary. But, he did give me a rosary.
And, come to think of it, I think I may have dated myself by all the clues I left in this thread.
I wish I could upload a picture of the rosary he gave me.
The rosary pouch still bears JP II’s Papal Coat of Arms as well as the rosary itself.
Actually, if you pay attention to papal footage some decades ago, you may even see my classmates in it — albeit, they were very young at the time!
Oh, and about:
…and instructed him how to receive communion
Actually, what I said was:
…it was JP II himself who taught me when I was young the importance of kneeling and praying to Our Lord…
To the man with no name,
Elena is my wifes name.Thus her name in my e-mail address.
God bless you.
Devil dogs.
“To the man with no name,”
Dan, I said I posted it.
“Elena is my wifes name.”
Your wife’s name is quite beautiful.
“Thus her name in my e-mail address.”
Aww.
“God bless you.”
Thank you. God Bless you, too.
“Devil dogs.”
yoo-hoos.
Thanks, Inocencio; I am. Hope you are having a blessed Advent, too.
David,
No God Bless you.
Have a blessed Christmas
Does anyone remember “Chocodiles”
“It takes a while to eat a chocodile”
They are chocolate covered twinkies.
Dan,
Just what are these things???
Devil dogs, Chocodiles????
Sounds satanic! ;^)
‘Does anyone remember “Chocodiles”‘
I’ve never eaten them.
BTW,
I guess Jimmy *did* ban John, after all.
God Bless, every one(including John)!
I apologize to everyone.
My favorite bishop is really His Excellency Rembert Weakland.
My favorite Apostle was Judas.
My favorite author is Fr. Andrew Greeley.
Favorite philosopher Rene De Cartes
Favorite church building,The Taj Mahoney.
Favorite Mass is from the Childrens Directory by my second favorite Bishop,His Excellency Archbishop Bugnini.
Again I apologize for my rude behavior on Mr.Akins site.
I am sorry Esau,Innocencio Mary Kay,David,Dan,and most of all His Holiness John Paul II,Pope Benedict,and Jimmy,and anyone else I missed.
Please forgive me.
Peace and brother and sisterhood to all Gods children.
Well, that was weird.
It was either NOT John, or NOT an apology.
Actually, John, you don’t owe any apology to me, personally.
But, I think you do owe a great apology to JP II.
Come on, brother, don’t be so quick with the sword like that and remember:
BQ Off
That is not John’s writing style. It does resemble someone we know though…
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
I agree, Inocencio. Jimmy can probably find out who posted that, and, if it is who you and I think it is, Jimmy should (finally) banish him to the Phantom Zone.
That is not John’s writing style.
Innocencio,
What gave it away — the use of periods? ;^)
Who is it???
I guess I haven’t been long enough on the blog to figure out these subtle hints!
Oh well, God bless!
By the way, were you still going to continue with your idea of folks providing suggestions on this thread???
I think that was actually a good one, although I don’t know if it’s at all possible at this point now.
Esau,
The link I provided earlier is very promising.
Motu proprio “after Christmas,” CNA reports
Especially this part:
“The apostolic exhortation on the Eucharist, according to the same sources, has already been finished by Pope Benedict XVI and is being translated into the different languages in which it will be presented. The document, which sources say will be issued after January 15, reaffirms the Church’s commitment to a celibate priesthood, encourages the use of Latin in liturgical celebrations, and even requests that seminarians learn the language as part of their formation. It will also promote the recovery of Gregorian chant and sacred polyphonic music as a replacement to modern music, which would result in a gradual elimination of musical instruments that are “inappropriate” for the solemnity and reverence of the Eucharistic celebration.”
Again, just being willing to volunteer makes a great deal of difference. We are in the situation we are in because people who were unfaithful did all the volunteering and steered many parishes in the wrong direction.
Their are some very exciting things happening and we should live out the hope we are called to by our beautiful faith.
I would be very grateful if people would offer suggestions on how to make things better.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
There is an imposter JOHN here, only room for one John here (just kidding “John”)
Esau
We both want the same think, and I enjoy our discussions, but please no e-mail addresses-I am in the minority here and all I need is more junk mail
God bless you
Dear Brother
If I was banned, Esau and Inocencio would have no one to banter with, and then it would be a one sided argument, sort of like what we see on Mark Shea who does not leave many of my posts up there for long, but has tolerated me
Besides, other than the hobby horse, I think we all here if Jimmy A was to really wack us with Da Rulz could be banned
Let the first without sin cast the first stone dear Brother
We both want the same think,
The tragedy of it all is that this may, in fact, be true. I believe we do want the same thing.
…and I enjoy our discussions, but please no e-mail addresses-I am in the minority here and all I need is more junk mail
Actually, John, one reason I did that is because there are other “Johns” out there. In some of the threads I’ve been on in this blog just recently, I’ve seen them.
I will not put out the email address. To address you directly though, do you mind if I refer to you as John (JTNOVA) or do you prefer something else? Again, I just don’t want any confusion with another John.
Also, I do enjoy some of our discussions as well.
Especially, the one we had in that one thread where I actually agreed with many of the points you raised at one point. ;^)
Nice link, Jimmy!
The idea of a sacred language is not unique to Catholicism. In fact Catholicism allows more freedom and makes less bold claims on language.
It is good to have a sacred and liturgical language to differentiate “vulgar” words. It also can be universially understood no matter where you were and bring a unity and true universality to the liturgy.
Latin is a logical language with a deep history in the Catholic Church (although certainly not the only or first or necessarily inherently sacred)
Hindus believe that Sanskrit is the original language with sounds (like OM) that somehow resonate with the soul and universe. Even Tibetan Buddhists use Sanskrit in some religious parts.
Jews believe that Hebrew is the language G-d spoke when he created the universe and is 37 times better than other languages. It is their liturgical language not Yiddish, Ladino or other venacular tongues (at least for Orthodox)
The Torah should be studied in Hebrew.
Muslims believe that Arabic is inherently superior as it was the language God wrote the Koran in and some Muslims believed that the Koran (like Jesus) pre-existed Creation and is the literal (more dramatically even than Jews believe the Torah is or Fundamentalists Christians believe the Bible is) words of Allah. Arabic is the language of prayer throughout the Muslim world from non Arabic speaking nations such as Indonesia, Persia, Turkey, to Bosnia. Prayers are said in Arabic and most Muslims believe that the Koran should be read in the original classical Arabic.
While Christianity does not make such bold claims and Latin is not inherently sacred like the claims of the followers of Hinduism(Sanskrit), Judaism (Hebrew), Islam (Arabic). There is also diversity of ancient liturgical languages (and languages of Sacred Scripture) in Christianity (with no inherent or competing claims per se) such as Aramaic, Syriac, Coptic, and obviously Greek.
However, even without inherent sacredness and a diversity in languages compared to other of the great world religions, Latin does play an incredible role in Western Heritage and should be studied and used in Liturgy. Mozart said that he would be happy if he could compose one perfect Gregorian Chant. The study of Latin helps logic, etymology, and issues in many other disciplines with medicine and law (as well as the linguistic base of all romance languages including Spanish, Italian, French, and Romanian and many words in others)
Latin deserves a premiere role in the Church and the liturgy. Especially the Latin Rite Catholic Church which dominates and has the most members of any Rite of the Catholic Church and other Christian schismatic Protestant or Orthodox sects.
Lastly, Aquinas in original Latin is sublime. Not always easily admittedly, but important.
Sacred and Liturgical and ancient languages are important. As Western/Latin Rite Catholics we should study Latin and use it in liturgy.
“As Western/Latin Rite Catholics we should study Latin and use it in liturgy.”
I could not agree more and that is exactly what Pope Benedict XVI is calling us to do. I wait with great anticipation for both his Motu proprio about the Tridentine Rite and apostolic exhortation on the Eucharist.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
John,
I have no problem with banter (I enjoy it, if that isn’t obvious). I have no problem with argument and rhetoric. I appreciate logic and new perspectives on old evidence.
If we could stick to that — and eliminate the vituperous and caluminous attacks on the Holy Father (and everyone else who does not agree with you that the Latin Mass, beautiful as it is, should be placed above obedience to the Holy Father) — I would willingly rescind my request to ban you from the website.
It is certainly not my call who should or should not participate in these combox discussions, and I will leave such matters Jimmy, who has much more patience, tolerance and wisdom (not to mention charity) than I do.
In the meantime, I do agree with Esau that it would be helpful for dialogue purposes for you to include some identifier in your name other than “John.” There are several who apparently post under that name, and it does become difficult to keep you all separated.
Peace.
Bugenhagen,
That was a very well balanced, well argued post. I agree completely.
Quark in Latin? Neutrino in Latin? Electricity in Latin?
There is an imposter JOHN here, only room for one John here (just kidding “John”)
Things are no better posting under the nomen of Michael.
Is Bugenhagen a Dutch name?
http://www.coomaraswamy-catholic-writings.com/books.htm
Fr./Dr. Rama Coomaraswamy was an excellent writer. I purchased one of his books,
“The Problems With the New Mass: A Brief Overview of the Major Theological Difficulties Inherent in the Novus Ordo Missae, (1990)”
(http://www.completebook.com/cbmsi/viewItem.do?isbn=0895554127)
that was very informative, providing side by side comparisons of the prayers/verbiage used in Novus Ordo Mass and the prayers/verbiage of the Tridentine Rite Mass. I found it incredibly enlightening.
Fr./Dr. Rama Coomaraswamy was an excellent writer.
Excellent writing is no substitute for the truth.
Andrew, Truly they are correct when they assert “где Папа, там Рим!” (“where the Pope is, there is Rome!”)
Thanks for posting the website!
http://www.benediktxvi.ru/foto-pontifik/trident-foto.html
THANKS! It was good to be able to see that not all of my college Russian is lost!
Good to see what БЕНЕДИКТ XVI is up to at the Ватикан!
-A Simple Sinner who is happy to see he still remembers a little Русский язык!
hmm had to verify my comment when I posted that last post because of the Russian.
Wonder if a file got started on me somewhere….. LOL
“Vee haff a complete dossier on you….Don’t vurry; vee are not going to publish it.”–Major Strasse
Brother
You stated:
“If we could stick to that — and eliminate the vituperous and caluminous attacks on the Holy Father (and everyone else who does not agree with you that the Latin Mass, beautiful as it is, should be placed above obedience to the Holy Father) — I would willingly rescind my request to ban you from the website.”
Well my dislike of B16 praying at a mosque with these Moslems while refusing to meet with Traditional Catholics, at least not photographed and grandstanded, and JPII’s 26 years of destruction of catholic morality and increased confusion as to whether we are the One True Church Christ Established on Earth really has nothing to do with obedience, as discussion blogs as this are where we Catholics are supposed to exchange ideas. If you truly believe that the Pope is the Monarch in the likeness of Christ on Earth as King-then you had better tell Paul VI to go and get back his tiarra from the UN because I understand he gave that away if favor of being “The Bishop of Rome” and the Pope now holds hands with schismatic Orthodox, hugs and embraces them, and word has come out of the Vatican on if I recall one of the Catholic news services that the Vatican has no real issues with atheists but only Traditionalists. So I can only question why. If the Pope called for me to perform my duty as a church militant I would do so, but not to weaken our faith, but to spread it, Europe is now secular and increasingly moslem as is much of the world due to the weakness we portray as Catholics that all faiths are equal, and we clearly know they are not
One of the faiths in Nostre Aetate in which we are told to look for truths and which Pope JPII participated in was HInduism and just this weekend the AP reported that in India there was to be the first marriage in a Hindu temple of a group of dogs until animal rights activists from all over the world came to try and put a stop to it. This is a faith I am to try and find something good in and real not to mention its pagan roots? One can be obedient and not follow this ecumania garbage my dear Brother, as you seem to deny the teachings and writings of Leo XIII, PiusIX, X and XII
“This Man eats with tax collectors and sinners!”
If we could stick to that — and eliminate the vituperous and caluminous attacks on the Holy Father (and everyone else who does not agree with you that the Latin Mass, beautiful as it is, should be placed above obedience to the Holy Father)
JOHN:
I’d have to agree with Brother Cadfael on this point.
Please don’t put down our Holy Father, both JP II and B16.
And given what B16 is trying to do for the Church, it would be a tremendous offense against all orthodox Catholics (not to mention, counterproductive even to your own agenda) if, in fact, you are to thwart the very efforts of the Pope whose aim it is to restore the orthodoxy of the Catholic Church today.
God bless All!
“This Man eats with tax collectors and sinners!”
Excellent, bill912!
It’s not merely by words that people are converted, but by gracious actions!
I remember a song that, although I did not so much enjoy the tune, did, in fact, enjoy the message in it.
It said that “They will know we are Christians by Our Love”.
So many Christians today are only Christian because they say so or because of the extent of their words, but they fail being Christian by the extent of their very action.
As John said:
1 Jn 3:18
18 My little children, let us not love in word nor in tongue, but in deed and in truth.
By what JP II did, by what B16 continues to do in his stead, they demonstrate the love of God in the world even for such as these — be they Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus!
The proof is in the many that converted to Catholicism because of such acts of love by their persons. Many during the days of JP II converted to Catholicism because of the love JP II demonstrated even to those who weren’t Catholics. He showed proof of the love of God for them through his action unlike the Christian who only says so through his meaningless words!
John,
Your principal error, it seems, lies in the assumption that Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI (i) deny the teachings and writings of Leo XIII, PiusIX, X and XII; (ii) do not understand the teachings and writings of Leo XIII, PiusIX, X and XII; (iii) have somehow contradicted the teachings and writings of Leo XIII, PiusIX, X and XII; or (iv) some combination of the above (pardon the grammar).
You thus further seem to assume that one must either choose between John Paul II and Benedict XVI, on the one hand, and Leo XIII, PiusIX, X and XII on the other hand, such that one who follows John Paul II and Benedict XVI must, necessarily, “deny the teachings and writings of Leo XIII, Pius IX, X and XII.”
On the contrary, I believe that the current Holy Father is the best interpreter of what the previous Magisterium has taught.
I finally agree with Bill912. Choirs of Angles are singing.
Esau and Brother
I am all for reconcilliation as long as one does not compromise the teachings. Are we now going to do away with the Filoque?
What I am saying clearly is that if ecumenism which was denounced by all pre Vatican II popes, but somehow embraced to the max by the council and JPII-where does the truth lie? Are we saying that all of the Popes before Vatican II were wrong? Was the church stronger before the participation of false worship by the successor to Peter before Vatican II or is the church better off today now that we worship and hold hands with openly defiant faiths some that dont even recogize Our Lord as Messiah while those of SSPX are treated as outcasts and with leprosy by those within the church establishment. One can not have it both ways, or quite possibly the church knows she has reformed and those small few in percentage at least refuse to compromise and know this false worship is bad and misleading
John,
What I am saying clearly is that if ecumenism which was denounced by all pre Vatican II popes, but somehow embraced to the max by the council and JPII-where does the truth lie? Are we saying that all of the Popes before Vatican II were wrong?
No, we are not saying that all (or any) of the Popes before Vatican II were wrong. What I am saying is that perhaps you do not fully understand (i) what was said before (there may be context that you are missing, for example); (ii) what is being said or done now; or (iii) both.
To pull from another combox discussion, perhaps you are confusing first principles with the application of those principles. Applications legitimately (and necessarily) change with circumstances, fundamental principles do not.
When you say that prior Popes condemned ecuminism, I have no problem rationally discussing the matter with you. Nor do I think it is illegitimate of you to raise the questions. If you really want to discuss it, calmly provide a citation to a teaching that you think has been contradicted, and I am sure that any number of capable posters here will be able to explain to you why it has not been contradicted. But ad hominem attacks on the Holy Fathers have no place in the discussion.
those of SSPX are treated as outcasts and with leprosy by those within the church establishment.
They are treated as if they belong to a society whose founders were excommunicated and whose creation was a schismatic act. Those acts were not taken lightly, and the refusal of those involved to submit to those in authority over them speaks volumes as to the legitimacy of their organization.
St. John of the Cross, to cite one of the examples you provided earlier, remained obedient and submissive to his superiors, and certainly to the Holy Father, through his death. He was imprisoned and excommunicated by one who had no authority over him; in other words, one to whom no duty of submission was required. Msgr. Lefevbre was excommunicated by the Holy Father for willfully engaging in a schismatic act.
John,
Will you now admit that you were wrong when you said a pope excommunicated the saints you named?
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Brother
I fully and clearly understand what was said before the council as I think Pope Pius XI in his encyclical Mortalium Animos, referring to ecumenical congresses, said:
“Clearly Catholics cannot approve of these undertakings in any way, since they are based on that false opinion of those who think that all religions are more or less good and praiseworthy, all of which, although not in the same way, equally manifest and attest to that innate sense which is implanted in us, by which we are drawn to God and to the devout recognition of His sovereignty. Those who hold this opinion not only err and are deceived, but also, since they repudiate the true religion by distorting the notion of it, gradually turn towards naturalism and atheism. For this reason it clearly follows that whosoever adheres to such things, or takes part in their undertakings, utterly abandons the religion revealed by God”.
While we have Popes namely JPII now:
Kiss the Koran, the Mohammedan “Bible.”
Say that all men are united to Christ solely by virtue of the Incarnation.
Teach that all men are saved.
Teach that the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church of the Creed is present, in all its essential elements, in non-Catholic sects.
Say that the Catholic Church is in communion with non-Catholic sects.
Teach that the Catholic Church is incapable of giving credibility to the Gospel, unless there is a “reunion of Christians.”
Teach that the Catholic Church shares a common apostolic faith with the non-Catholic sects.
Teach that non-Catholic sects have an apostolic mission.
Teach that the Holy Ghost uses non-Catholic sects as a means of salvation.
Teach that it is divinely revealed that men have a right to religious freedom and freedom of conscience.
Teach that a properly ordered society is one in which all religions are given free rein to practice, proselytize and propagate.
Teach that Our Lord’s descent into hell simply means that He was buried.
Participate in all forms of non-Catholic worship, including that of the Lutherans, the Jews, the Hindus, the American Indians, the Polynesians, to mention only some;
Praise the voodoo religion;
Permit the desecration of Assisi, in which a golden statue of Buddha was placed upon an altar an incensed by a Buddhist priest;
Teach the heretical notion of the Church, that the Church of Christ is not exactly the same thing as the Catholic Church, but merely subsists in it. This heretical doctrine was taught by Vatican II in Lumen Gentium.
So who is to believe? I was always taught that if church teaching had already been defined, that a Pope can not err-then we follow the first teaching. As far as what is taking place today with the John Paul II and B16 to some extent-I have no sound theoligical answer other than to feel they are being misled and misguided in their attempt to make rights of some of the wrongs of the past, but really we have no reason to obey these actions or agree with them as to do so would be to denounce the teachings of past popes and I refuse to do that
Inocencio
I gave you countless links to prove that St Joan of Arc was excommunicated-she was put under trial under the full approval of the sitting Pope and burnt at the stake as we all know
One could pick up a book in any Catholic bookstore or even do a search on the web
Any link I provide you will surely not suffice and you will only denounce it. I think it was Pope Pius IV who later reversed her being accused of heresy by the church some 25 years later if I recall my history. She was living in the time of the “anti popes” (sound familiar to today possibly?? as lets not forget the first Pope John XXIII was deemed a heretic and was ran out of town later to be replaced by Martin V-some coincidence?)
Do the reseach for yourself. If I put a big cut and paste you will say just give you the link and vice versa so I know you are trying to just entrap me here. There have been many saints including Anathasisus who refused to follow the Bishops and Popes as Archbishop Lefebvre only to be proven holy and venerable men years later. Once should not condemn a man for holding fast to his faith as the Archbishop did
What do you call John’s post above????
The March of the ‘Strawmen’!
John,
Your statement:
…really we have no reason to obey these actions or agree with them as to do so would be to denounce the teachings of past popes and I refuse to do that
The above is wrong in so many ways.
First, it assumes that they denounce the teachings of past popes, which is only based on your misunderstanding.
Second, you clearly do not obey the Catholic Church and respect the authority of the Pope as Christ had intended and established.
Sometimes, I cannot help but think that you and your cohorts are far worse than any of the Anti-Catholics we encounter since, being that you are, in fact, Catholics and claim to be so very devoted to the true Catholic Faith at that, but, all in all, you may be nothing else in the end but traitors to the Catholic Faith that you, yourselves, claim to adhere to so devotedly!
“Once should not condemn a man for holding fast to his faith as the Archbishop did”
And he held fast to his faith by ordaining bishops without the pope’s permission? Right. Got it. Then Archbishop Lefebvre’s faith obviously wasn’t Catholic.
John,
I gave you countless links
That is simply, as always, untrue. Here is your post:
There are hundreds of links on this so anyone I put up you will say is no good, so search for yourself Posted by: John | Dec 15, 2006 10:55:29 AM
Next claim…
to prove that St Joan of Arc was excommunicated-she was put under trial under the full approval of the sitting Pope and burnt at the stake as we all know
One could pick up a book in any Catholic bookstore or even do a search on the web
Or one could look in the Catholic Encyclopedia like I did. And see you are wrong again!
From the Catholic Encyclopedia @ newadvent.org:
The first trial had been conducted without reference to the pope, indeed it was carried out in defiance of St. Joan’s appeal to the head of the Church. Now an appellate court constituted by the pope, after long inquiry and examination of witnesses, reversed and annulled the sentence pronounced by a local tribunal under Cauchon’s presidency.
But we have come to understand that facts mean nothing to you.
You are like Martin Luther before you who started out Catholic and ended up his own pope.
So mount your “mighty” hobby horse, Banter I think you said his name is, and ride without direction as always but assured that you alone are not lost because you say so!
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
John,
Perhaps you stopped reading Mortalium Animos before you got to paragraph 11 (near the end):
Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.
Applying the words of Pope Pius XI, it would seem that the Holy Father had no choice but to excommunicate Archibishop Lefevbre.
Clearly Catholics cannot approve of these undertakings in any way, since they are based on that false opinion of those who think that all religions are more or less good and praiseworthy, all of which, although not in the same way, equally manifest and attest to that innate sense which is implanted in us, by which we are drawn to God and to the devout recognition of His sovereignty.
Neither Pope John Paul II nor Pope Benedict XVI has suggested that all religions equally manifest and attest to the innate sense within us. That is the type of religious pluralism they, too, repeatedly condemned. It goes without saying that Pope Pius XI is not forbidding undertakings that are based on something other than the false opinion of which he speaks (much less is Pope Pius XI attempting to bind a future successor, but that is somewhat beside the point).
Those who hold this opinion not only err and are deceived, but also, since they repudiate the true religion by distorting the notion of it, gradually turn towards naturalism and atheism.
“This opinion” is the false religious pluralism that Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI reject, not embrace. They would at least appear to in complete agreement with Pope Pius XI on this point.
For this reason it clearly follows that whosoever adheres to such things, or takes part in their undertakings, utterly abandons the religion revealed by God”.
Again, “such things” are the undertakings based on the false notion that all religions equally manifest an innate religious sense.
Pope Pius XI is not condemning ecuminism, he is condemning false ecuminism, much the same that Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI did and are doing. Ecuminism that is based on anything other than the truth is wrong, and should be avoided, discouraged, forbidden.
I will not bother with the specific items you list, unless you would like me to address something in particular, except to note that you have mischaracterized or misstated many, and misunderstood others. Even where you have correctly identified some action or teaching, they would be wholly unobjectionable under Mortalium Animos because they are not based on a false premise.
You can try to pit Pope Pius XI against Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI and the Second Vatican Council all you want, but you will not succeed.
Innocencio:
So mount your “mighty” hobby horse, Banter I think you said his name is
CLASSIC!!!!
That was hilarious!
To borrow from Gandalf in Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King:
“[Banter], Teach us the meaning of haste!”
John,
There have been many saints including Anathasisus who refused to follow the Bishops and Popes
Can we deal in facts, please? And don’t say you’ve provided them with respect to St. Athanasius, you have not.
is the Catholic Encyclopedia entry for St. Athanasius. I could not identify a single instance of St. Athanasius being disobedient to a superior or to the Holy Father, but I challenge you to try.
You have impugned the good name of a great saint. Charity and humility would require that you either establish or take back the charges.
Offoff!
John,
Here is your original comment:
“Well I guess you have no knowledge of St. Athanasius, St. Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, and St. Joan of Arc, all of whom were excommunicated by the Pope and later canonized as the church realized that she erred in judgement and these persons were fighters for the faith”. Posted by: John | Dec 15, 2006 7:28:20 AM
Again, I ask you to admit you were wrong about the pope excommunicating them.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Yikes. I haven’t been reading John’s posts, but to claim that Theresa of Avila and John of the Cross excommunicated?!?
Yowzers. What wild statements to make. I can’t imagine anything would justify that statement.
Mary Kay,
Yikes. I haven’t been reading John’s posts, but to claim that Theresa of Avila and John of the Cross excommunicated?!?
Yowzers. What wild statements to make. I can’t imagine anything would justify that statement.
To be fair to John, he was close to the truth both times. St. John of the Cross was part of a group that was excommunicated, but it was not the Pope who excommunicated him. Rather, I believe it was the abbot who had improperly imprisoned him despite the fact that he had no authority over him. When St. John of the Cross and his case was presented to the Holy Father, he was absolved of blame, restored to communion, and the new order founded with St. Teresa was approved.
I am not certain that St. Teresa of Avila was ever excommunicated, but a group of nuns who had voted for her were excommunicated (but again, not by the Holy Father). I have seen nothing (other than John’s post) suggesting that St. Teresa herself was.
Innocencio has repeatedly set out the facts refuting John’s claims as they apply to St. Joan of Arc.
With respect to St. Athanasius, he was exiled by Pope Liberius, but not for disobedience. On the contrary, he was completely obedient to the Pope and served his exile, even though the reasons for the exile was unjust.
So, after getting close to the truth, John has simply drawn the wrong conclusions, or so it would seem. To hold any of these four saints up as models of disobedience is disgraceful, and there is simply no comparison between their situation and that of Archbishop Lefevbre.
Brother Cadfael, you are being charitable but “close to the truth” is like saying that Kerry and Bush held the same views because they were in physical proximity.
I’m trying to think of a diplomatic way of saying this (and not succeeding), but only sloppy thinking, or at best a lack of knowledge, would entertain the thought that either St. Theresa of Avila or St. John of the Cross were excommunicated.
I am not as knowledgeable about St. Athanasius or St. Joan of Arc, so I didn’t comment on them.
Your comment To hold any of these four saints up as models of disobedience is disgraceful, and there is simply no comparison between their situation and that of Archbishop Lefevbre is spot on.
Mary Kay,
Brother Cadfael, you are being charitable but “close to the truth” is like saying that Kerry and Bush held the same views because they were in physical proximity.
I have to be charitable to John in penance for unjustly jumping on Michael in another thread.
I missed that thread. Looks like you’ve fulfilled your penance 🙂
A quick question from a non-Catholic (but I do attend the local Catholic church)I have a copy of The Liber Usualis (Edited by the Benedictines of Solesmes) Published by the Society of Saint John the Evangelist; Desclee & Co.; Printers to the Holy See and the Sacred Congregation of Rites; Tournai Belgium; 1952; Imprematur +Julius Lecouvet, Vic.Gen.)
I assume this follows the Tridentine Rite, is this correct? If not,can someone give me a bit of help? Us “searchers” can get a bit lost down the Catholic corridors of time….
The book has a brief English introduction and an incredible “Rubrics For the Chant of The Mass” – which was the reason I bought it…part of a bit of research into church music…
With the exception of the introduction and the rubrics the book is completely in Latin. Are there still missals with Latin/English texts available? Any info is appreciated.
A hui hou! (“Later in Hawaiian)
kaneohe,
COALITION ECCLESIA DEI is a great resource about the Tridentine Rite and you can order a Latin/English missal from them here.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
There seems to be a chat line going on between one “Esau” & “John” and about as Christian in charity as the “puritans” in Salem at the salem witch trials. Abuse amoungst and within the ranks of the growing Orthodox Traditional movement in the Latin rite of the Catholic church really needs to stop. SSPX at the indults throats sedevacantists at everyones throats and indultists at the throats of independent Traditionalists. REALLY IS TIME TO START GROWING UP and unifying to reverse the 40 years of protestantizing of the Catholic Church using Vat 2 and it’s “reforms” as an excuse for the novus ordo abuses. Rome (The Vatican) has enough revisionist-neo-marxists running the show and crawling around the halls of the Vatican and St. Peter’s. So it is a matter of traditionalists to stop their backbiting crap, unite and return their church to something resembling that established 2000 years ago by the Messiah–Shalom
There seems to be a chat line going on between one “Esau” & “John” and about as Christian in charity as the “puritans” in Salem at the salem witch trials.
John 2:
It’s OBVIOUS from what you’ve said in your post that you haven’t read my comments in past threads, don’t know from what vantage point I’m coming from, what I’m actually saying, and, worse, jumping into unjustified conclusions about me merely because you want to get on your soapbox and appear more righteous than the rest of those on the blog.
Mmmmm… isn’t there a word that describes such a person (and his/her action) who jumps into conclusions about people without any thorough examination and thought in the matter whatsoever and fling such horrendous accusations?
I’ll just leave the finding of such a word to your high and mighty hands! SHALOM!
Not much to think about, Esau it’s all about Esau all me, mine, I, my threads etc, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc, whatever—-John2
John 2 posted:
“Abuse amoungst and within the ranks of the growing Orthodox Traditional movement in the Latin rite of the Catholic church really needs to stop. SSPX at the indults throats sedevacantists at everyones throats and indultists at the throats of independent Traditionalists”
John 2-What abuse by the Traditionalists? They abide by church teachings unchanged with NO reform.
A press release today by Cardinal Bertone said that Aetheists for the most part are more welcome than those who oppose Benedicts renewal of the church!!!
The church is corrupted from within and it will take prayer to restore her
What abuse by the Traditionalists? They abide by church teachings unchanged with NO reform.
NO REFORM???
Rejection of the AUTHORITY of the Pope and the Council of Bishops is now called ‘abiding by Church Teachings Unchanged with NO Reform’?
What a bunch of lies!
True reform is good.
The Church needed a renewal.
Just that it was probably done in a bad spirit.
Some Day:
Read the Apostolic Exhortation just released.
As B16 said:
“The difficulties and even the occasional abuses which were noted, it was affirmed, cannot overshadow the benefits and the validity of the liturgical renewal, whose riches are yet to be fully explored. Concretely, the changes which the Council called for need to be understood within the overall unity of the historical development of the rite itself, without the introduction of artificial discontinuities.”
Agreed Someday
I guess Esau would think that pedophila because it was done by Cardinals, Bishops and priests and the covered up by John Paul for 26 years was all good because it came from these same men!!
John:
We’re talking about the AUTHORITY of the Pope and the Council of Bishops.
Don’t DISTRACT from the point!
By the way, you still haven’t ANSWERED my question, Mr. ‘Martin Luther’ JTNOVA!
For the 7th time, on what AUTHORITY do you accept the actions of the previous councils?
P.S. You keep conveniently IGNORING the fact that most of those viled and wretched pedophiles came from your beloved era of the TLM Days!
Goes much in demonstrating that in spite of their so-called ‘holy’ exterior, they were really wolves in sheep’s clothing!
Esau
The priesthood started to change in the late 1950’s when the modernistic agenda started to take hold by almost all accounts, culminating with Vatican II, the reinstatement of the permanant married deacon and the new rite of ordination (changing of the sacrament itself). Priest became “presiders” as the groundwork was being layed for female ordination which has hit a snag. When one was interviewed at the seminary, it was either done by a femi-nun or a homosexual formation director and if you did not agree with female ordination and homosexuality (at least implicitly) you were done.
With the liberalization of the priesthood and homosexuality still in the closet, the seminaries became the place for gays to meet other gays and the floodgates were opened.
Before this period, the sins committed by a priest were with females, which is not acceptable either, but pales in comparison to the homosexual prieshood of today. One cant hear a mass from a Novus Ordo parish on TV or wherever without hearing some effiminate voice at least 50% of the time if not more
Father Johnathan Morgan or whatever on Fox News the other night, the so called “Vatican expert” and Fox TV analyst is par for the course.
Gay Priests are just another reason for Tradition to have gone by the wayside because I have never met a “Traditional Homosexual” because gays hate anything for the most part that has to do with the tradition because the past has been ungracious to them and their lifestyle….Until now
Oh please John, do not come with us with your distortion of the facts!
There are so many homosexual priests out there that came from your generation, your TLM tradition!
It was due to the many gay priests that came forth from your days (although ‘closet-ing’ themselves for the most part) that made the seminaries into the pink palaces that they came to be!
Thanks to the clean-up that had happened, all the filth that arose from your time is now being rightly disposed of into the waste disposal!
The only thing redeeming about the whole situation is that these homosexual deviants as well as the pedophiles only consist of a small percentage of the total clergy!
Gay Priests are just another reason for Tradition to have gone by the wayside because I have never met a “Traditional Homosexual”
Again, you NEGLECT the fact that most of the vile pedophile priests came from YOUR TLM era!
Didn’t you notice that the majority of them were old and, in fact, when sought for capture by the authorities, many had already croaked or were just about to!
That’s the reason why some couldn’t even be prosecuted since the statues of limitation expired because of the fact that many of these folks were decrepit and old; therefore, civil actions were resorted to!
These deviant hell-spawn miscreants (JUDASes)who took advantage of the times when Catholicism was a dominant positive influence in America and the world through media and film, and, under the guise of holiness, took advantage of the youth of the Church as well as the trust of the public!
They will certainly receive their just rewards!
Esau
Wake up and smell the coffee, your hatred of tradition and support of Vatican II is your cloaked veil of Protestanism that you and others like you, in your guise of so called “obedience” is just your way of getting reform after reform past that never would have taken place before when Popes such as Pius X ruled and made those like yourself who would be clergy take an oath which really meant nothing anyway to them because they were bent on modernism which was condemned by all Popes before Vatican II but now embraced by the Papacy and worse yet the Cardinals and Bishops and what remains of the laity
Even a so called “conservative” like Hannity on Fox News cant even give up meat during lent, as you are all cafeteria catholics and those that hold fast to the faith and tradition are the real catholics and accept it in its entirety
Esau, if you ever get married (and I know your not as I saw you wanted to date a Moslem girm), If you feel so secure with your “Novus Ordo Priests”, then when you have children some day, the proof would be if you have any sons to let them all be altar boys and help out in the church after school alone with these stellar men. By statistics 50% or one of two will be homosexual in 2007 so your chances are not good!!!
your hatred of tradition
Hatred of tradition???
Is that why I attended the Indult Mass and promote it?
The fact of the matter is that it is you who hate Tradition.
Core to the Traditional Teachings of the Catholic Church is strict adherence to the AUTHORITY of the Pope & the Council of Bishops.
How can I even claim to abide by Traditional Church Teachings if I have, in fact, arbitrarily substituted my own authority over that of the Church, which Christ Himself gave to the Pope & the Council of Bishops? How exactly am I unlike Martin Luther if I do the very thing he had done in the past?
So, there you go, Mr. ‘Martin Luther’ JTNOVA who endorses ‘closet-ed’ TLM priests responsible for the pink palaces that resulted in the hundreds of pedophile sexual assaults of our times!
Thank God that these only account for a small percentage of the total clergy!
“By statistics 50% or one of two will be homosexual in 2007 so your chances are not good!!!”
That’s a lie.
and I know your not as I saw you wanted to date a Moslem girm),
John:
Just because she was a Muslim girl doesn’t justify your INSULT here!
Would the PROSTITUTES and PUBLICANS that Jesus hung out with also sub-human? Or does that apply only to those who are of other faiths?
Mind you, many saints and martyrs of the Church were actually CONVERTS!
John,
You saying exagerate, and not know meaning obedience, either.
Church teach same thing as before. You confuse exterior and bad times as change. Take moment, look at you pride, ask self who is real authority.
Why believe Church at all if it fall down?
Wise words, floaty, wise words!
God Bless You!
At least somebody adheres to Traditional Catholic Church Teaching!
you are all cafeteria catholics and those that hold fast to the faith and tradition are the real catholics and accept it in its entirety
This coming from a narrow-minded hack like you who conveniently picks-and-chooses just which Teachings and Councils of the Church you and your sort should abide by and simply IGNORE the rest!
Never mind the fact that you and your sort altogether DENY the AUTHORITY of the Pope and the Council of Bishops, which is the very HEART of Tradition and the Catholic Church!
“We do put to confusion all those [heretics] by indicating that tradition [of doctrine] derived from the apostles of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul…for it is a matter of necessity that every church should agree with this church, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful from everywhere… ”
Esau,
I think John meant “Moslem gir(L)”, not
Moslem gir(M)
John 2,
I will give you props for one thing: you managed to get John and Esau to agreed on something-their dislike for you!
🙂
Charity is a virtue that is sorely lacking on this thread.
Tim posted:
“By statistics 50% or one of two will be homosexual in 2007 so your chances are not good!!!”
That’s a lie.”
And Esau as always in his charity posted:
“So, there you go, Mr. ‘Martin Luther’ JTNOVA who endorses ‘closet-ed’ TLM priests responsible for the pink palaces that resulted in the hundreds of pedophile sexual assaults of our times!”
Possibly reading a few books on the subject, that relate to today, including “Goodbye Good Men” as well as:
“Considering Orientation” is the chapter of The Changing Face of the Priesthood (Liturgical Press, $14.95) that deals with the increasingly disproportionate number of homosexuals in the Roman Catholic priesthood and the one that leads the author, Fr. Donald B. Cozzens, to ask if the priesthood is on its way to becoming a “gay profession. It is a devilishly difficult question to ask, first because almost no one in the hierarchical ranks wants anything to do with it….”
And then you have the following statistics from USA Today back in 2002 where it was stated:
“Catholic doctrine says homosexual orientation is not a sin, but homosexual behavior is “disordered.” And some church experts estimate that 20% to 50% of the current 45,000 U.S. priests are homosexual. In February, the pope’s spokesman, Joaquin Navarro-Valls, was quoted as saying homosexuals should not be in the priesthood, even if they maintain celibacy.
Former priest and psychotherapist A.W. Richard Sipe says his study of priests from 1960 to 1985, when many of the abuses now coming to light took place, found only about half of all priests maintained celibacy. He estimated 30% of all priests had a homosexual orientation.
Sharon Sherrard, 62, of San Rafael, Calif., a Catholic lesbian, says she’s sickened and saddened by church leaders’ remarks. “It is so easy to use us as scapegoats. It’s so easy.”
And it won’t work, says Paul Wilkes, who studied 600 parishes for his book, Excellent Catholic Parishes: A Guide to Best Places and Practices.
“If we drove all the gay priests out of the priesthood, our Masses would be on videotape,” Wilkes says.
”
So there you have it Esau-As Sgt Friday on Dragnet used to say “Only the Facts”…Can you prove to me otherwise? I dont think so!!!!!!
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/04/25/gay-catholics.htm
In my charity?
Have you even read your own posts?
Plus, you still haven’t explained to me why the majority of pedophile priests were old folk and when the authorities were out to get them, the majority of them either already croaked or were just about to!
Again, that’s why most of these couldn’t get prosecuted in the first place since it happened so long ago, the statues of limitations had already run out.
Them’s there the facts!
The deviants from the TLM days were largely responsible for the Pink Palaces of the day!
statutes, that is.
Here you go Esau, right from the good old USCCB which now ENDORSES homosexuality, says it is NOT a sin, and now will baptise children of homosexual parents.
This is not only heresy, but breaks OT laws as well. How the USCCB can legitimize same sex unions when the rite of Baptism demands the renunciation of Satan?
Moreover, there is widespread evidence of the extreme risk of physical abuse of young children by homosexuals due to the inordinate direct correlation of child abuse by those inclined to homosexual acts when compared against heterosexual abuse. Will these children be brought up Catholic? The Church should be making every effort to get these at-risk children out of the clutches of sexual perverts instead of de facto legitimizing their lifestyle. So Esau I ask, who is pushing the church closer to Satan?
http://www.usccb.org/dpp/Ministry.pdf
About what I figured, John. Second-hand unsubstantiated figures from unreliable sources. USA Today? Well, who can argue with THAT?…
“some church experts estimate that 20% to 50% of the current 45,000 U.S. priests are homosexual.”
Who the heck are “some church experts?”.
“Former priest and psychotherapist A.W. Richard Sipe…”
A former priest? OH, no axe to grind THERE…
“…estimated 30% of all priests had a homosexual orientation.”
Estimated based on what? His Magic Eight Ball?
“And it won’t work, says Paul Wilkes, who studied 600 parishes for his book, Excellent Catholic Parishes: A Guide to Best Places and Practices,”If we drove all the gay priests out of the priesthood, our Masses would be on videotape,” Wilkes says.”
Paul Wilkes – a special correspondent for BeliefNet – is blowing smoke about the number of gay priests because HE LIKES THE IDEA. He wants people to believe thare are tons of gay priests, because he wants us to believe that the Church can’t function without them. His book carries an endorsement by Most Reverend Rembert G. Weakland!
NOT ONE of these sources is reliable – at all.
John, the USCCB (thankfully) does not write Church doctrine.
I hate to align my self with an idiot, so I am not,duh, but I will say as for matters of purity in regards to the current priests, it is pretty bad. 30% sounds about a right, I forget if it is for homosexual or just general sinful priests, in regards to celebacy, chastity, purity…
And you can give or take a percent or two, but that sounds just about right.
And trust, me it is not something I am happy about. It angers me, because there comes a point like the Sunday Gospel, where you got to “cut the fig tree”and there is not much left for God to rise up and demonstrate His perfect justice.
Tim J., as usual, has it right!
Thank God fo well-informed folks like him!
As I’ve mentioned before:
God has sent His Church such faithful Christians as B16 and JP II before him as well as fellow Protestant Converts, who have come to help save the Church in these dire times!
Yet, folks like John — they are the ‘salt that has gone flat’ that the Lord talks about in the Gospels!
God Save His Church Through Folks like these!
“30% sounds about a right, I forget if it is for homosexual or just general sinful priests, in regards to celebacy, chastity, purity…”
Please, folks… if you are going to make these kinds of grave assertions, you can’t just toss around these wild numbers on the basis that “you heard it somewhere”.
Without something solid to back it up, it’s just gossip.
Worse, it is slander. Is it not hard enough to be a priest? Must we make it more difficult by spreading pernicious nonsense?
So Esau-You still have not provided me facts to back up your assertions that the pink palaces and gay priest are a result of the Traditionalism and where the pedophilia and homosexuality so prevelent in the priesthood took root before 1950 and not after culminating in the 1970’s. So I assume you failed again
And Tim-I guess you dont have faith in the USA today as well as two well documented books on the subject. The 30-50% number is for GAY priests, not unchaste, dont try to pull a “Vatican II” and distort your facts. What would be a good source for you? Did you watch CNN last night where a 34 year old CNN catholic correspondent came out and admitted he was sexualy abused by a priest in Baltimore? They are coming out every day.
And another good source which you should not have any problem with is “Religious Tolerance” which has no AXE to grind Tim where they quote upwards of 58% are homosexual in the seminaries TODAY!!
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc1.htm
What percentage of seminary students have a homosexual orientation?
A
“as noted in an essay on priests with a homosexual orientation in the Roman Catholic priesthood, estimates range from “perhaps more than 10%” to 58%. It is generally recognized that a larger percentage of seminary students than priests have a homosexual orientation. However, nobody knows with any degree of accuracy.
Men with a homosexual orientation might be attracted to the Roman Catholic priesthood for a variety of reasons:
Most probably feel deeply that they have a definite calling by God to become priests.
Some may be attracted by the “caring and nurturing nature of the priesthood, which is part of the nature of ministry.”
T
he current bar against marriage for priests has no inhibiting influence, as it does among potential priests with a heterosexual orientation.
Priests are generally respected by the public. Being ordained gives homosexuals instant relief from the persecution that they had experienced as laity.
The priesthood gives them protection from homophobia and the potential of physical assault. Much of the public assumes that many middle-aged and older men who have never been married are gay. Thus, the priesthood becomes a safe place to hide their sexual orientation.
The Roman Catholic priesthood may be attractive to persons with a homosexual orientation because, at this time, is an all-male institution. They would feel comfortable there.
Some seminary students might be attracted by the homosexual sub-culture of most seminaries — a culture that is probably not present in schools that train for other professions.
It is possible that some predatory candidates for the priesthood might seek ordination because it would give them a position of power over the laity and give them access to many children.
It is possible that some predatory candidates for the priesthood might seek ordination because it would give them a position of power over the laity and give them access to many children.
Go ahead John with all your vile attempts to DESTROY the Catholic Church!
You are SO GOOD at doing the DEVIL’S WORK!
Though, you keep on conveniently IGNORING the fact that if it weren’t for the homosexual deviants of your generation (the very seeds that were planted to begin with that led up to where we are today), this whole thing may not have happened to begin with!
Also, you conveniently glossed over this particular statement in your citation:
However, nobody knows with any degree of accuracy.
I suppose so long as you can ADVANCE YOUR AGENDA, it doesn’t matter that in the process, YOU ACTUALLY DO THE DEVIL’S WORK and DESTROY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH with YOUR VERY LIES and SPREAD CALUMNY at the expense of all the INNOCENT CLERGY out there who ACTUALLY DO GOD’S WORK!
GO BACK TO WHERE YOU CAME FROM, YOU SERPENT OF SATAN!
Matthew 16:23
Go behind me, Satan, thou art a scandal unto me: because thou savourest not the things that are of God, but the things that are of men.
John, you seem to have missed the only really reliable statement in the whole article;
“estimates range from 10% to 58%… However, nobody knows with any degree of accuracy.”
10 to 58 %???!! What rubbish! They also give no indication where these “estimates” come from.
I’ll give you an estimate, for free. “8%”. There. Now you can pass that along and people can place that alongside all the other meaningless estimates in their “research”.
And, no, I think I made clear that USA Today is not where I go for reliable information on anything, especially anything touching on religion.
But if you believe anything you read in the papers, that’s what you get. Garbage in, garbage out.
Thank you, Tim J., for being the Voice of Reason here.
I apologize, but to think that folks like John are so determined in their endeavor to bring down the Catholic Church, even if it means spreading such calumny about the Church, it’s simply intolerable!
It’s bad enough that because of the few bad seeds out there that have caused such harm to the Church as well as to others, the majority of innocent clergy are already suffering the brunt of the circumstances!
To multiply the suffering of all the innocent clergy (who only seek to do the will of the Lord) brought about by narrow-minded bigots like John and his sort who would go so far as to spreading such calumny in order to promote their agenda against the Church — even if it means at the service of Satan and adding to the persecution of innocent priests, is just incredible!
Esau,
Unsavory names probably won’t get John to listen any more than he is now. It doesn’t matter whether or not he deserves the names, but whether you should be using them as a Catholic on a Catholic blog. just a friendly reminder. Other than that, keep preaching the truth!
Thanks OTNT for the charitable reminder! God bless you!
It’s just that it’s bad enough that the innocent clergy out there who only want to do God’s work have to suffer so needlessly because of the terrible deviants who had caused such affliction on both the Church and innocent victims.
If you think about it, the ecclesial life of these innocent priests is quite a tough cross to bear as it is:
They give up the whole notion of a family life, the intimate embrace and sensual comfort of a loving wife, the beautiful blessings of the family found in the children God blesses them with; not to mention, low pay, a non-existent retirement package, poor treatment by not only many in the laity but from those above them as well, etc.
It’s a very tough cross to carry as it is — one that no doubt only Christ can help carry.
Here you go Esau, Again from religious tolerance which has no axe to grind. The Novus Ordo church has produced a crop of abusers that you, as JPII with Cardinal Law , and with these horrible corrupt Bishops, condone and cover up for, as mortal sinners as part of their crime.
Before Vatican II these men would have been DEFROCKED and in midevil times, executed for such crimes. But with a need to have a liberal priesthood that will accept females as priests, nothing better than a homosexual. If the church was so against it, with all of the billions sent out in payment and now 5 bankrupt dioceses, they would ban them all together, but they refuse because the highest levels of the church are homosexual as these gays have progressed over these 50 years to positions of power. Possibly a gay pope soon?
Surveys:
In the Fall of 1999, the Kansas City Star sent a questionnaire to 3,000 priests in the U.S. 73% did not reply. The low response rate could be anticipated. One would expect homosexuals and bisexuals to be reluctant to respond to the questionnaire since it deals with such a sensitive issue, and originated from a newspaper. Homosexual and bisexual priests would probably be less likely to reply to the survey. Among the 801 priests who did reply: 75% said they had a heterosexual orientation;
15% homosexual;
5% bisexual. 9
During 1990, Rev. Thomas Crangle, a Franciscan priest in Passaic, N.J., mailed a survey to 500 randomly selected priests. Of the 398 responses, about 45% said that they were gay. 10
Conclusion: If we assume that all of the estimates are of equal validity, then about 33% of priests have a homosexual orientation — about one in three.
Hey John,
Once again, you fail to realize the true battles of the Church, the ones the common and even priests don’t know about. (if they did they would be in Rome.)
It is still the Church. No matter whose name is signing the documents.
Cardinal Law was and is innocent.
Another proof that you don’t know how far and how deep and secret the war goes to.
You speak about masons, and you only know what they let you know.
You are a simple other, who reads a bit more.
You don’t know jack.
So shut up and talk about things you can at least pretend to know.
Not that I want to take the side of John, but how would a kid like Some Day find out about Deep Dark Secrets That Only The Chosen Few Know In The Church?
If he knew, maybe others know alot too.
Just that is a very touchy subject.
One kept under a nearly perfect silence.
And remember, not all knowledge is for us old ones. Some saints faught battles only the ones around them knew about. Maybe there are some saints out their fighing the evils of today, that few know about. The problem is most are like john nova, they are skeptics.
I certainly don’t know as much as I would like.
I wonder why it is that Elias not only sounds an awful lot like Some Day, but also uses a paragraphing style eerily similar to Some Day’s highly characteristic one. Things that make you go “Hmmm”.
Not that I want to take the side of John, but how would a kid like Some Day find out about Deep Dark Secrets That Only The Chosen Few Know In The Church?
Why Anon?
Are you and John going to finally tell us how much you and him engage in homosexual activities any time soon?
John, does your wife even know?
You both are so obsessed with the topic of homo priests that me thinks doth protest too much!
“John and Anon sitting on a tree!”
Another thing that makes you go “Hmmm”:
If you compare this quote from Some Day on another thread:
“In the end, you are just a false right tradox, who thinks he and those like him will save the Church…”
with this quote from Elias:
“Maybe there are some saints out their fighing the evils of today, that few know about.”
Both put a comma before a subordinate clause that shouldn’t be there in proper English. This is a characteristic error of Some Day. Based on this and my above comment, I would propose that Some Day and Elias are one in the same.
Sorry ain’t me.
The other names I have ever used was In Corde Jesu when I first started bloging, and John Redcorn when I wanted to say something potentially stupid. Like make fun of some idiot.
And I have not used In Corde Jesu in this blog.
And John Redcorn is some guy from King of the Hill, which is retarded. I don’t even know why I used it.
Sorry ain’t me.
The other names I have ever used was In Corde Jesu when I first started bloging, and John Redcorn when I wanted to say something potentially stupid. Like make fun of some idiot.
And I have not used In Corde Jesu in this blog.
And John Redcorn is some guy from King of the Hill, which is retarded. I don’t even know why I used it.
And I surely did not write under Anon is Homo.
Now if you think Elias Xavier is my name, sorry, your wrong. I have posted it sometimes.
AND I have emailed Mr. Jimmy with my name.
(Anon is Homo is uncalled for and nasty)
Based on this and my above comment, I would propose that Some Day and Elias are one in the same.
Based on your and John’s comments, I’d say since both of you are so obssessed with homo priests, both of you are hiding something in the closet!
That’s my analysis!
Hmm anon, I do have a question…
A comma indicates pause…
So what is wrong with putting a comma?
Unless, I am wrong in writting how I would say it.
Okay. I’ll take your word for it (regarding not being Elias, not regarding Deep Dark Secrets That None Save High Prelates And 17 Year Old Commenters Know). Incidentally, I didn’t think that Anon is Homo was you.
not regarding Deep Dark Secrets That None Save High Prelates And 17 Year Old Commenters Know
Ewwww!
Anon, you actually go for 17 year old boys?
Bad enough you’re a homo and now this?
I need to call DATELINE!
But instead of thinking bad about me, who as horrible as I might be, have never given reason to think such things in my posts look what I found at RC blog about John( sorry if you think it is mudslinging, but it confirms many suspicions)
———————————————–
More do nothing by a do nothing, liberal, Vatican II loving church that could care less about faith and morals
So sad, leave it up to these horribly Bishops and Priests.
Another shameful act. The only solution now does seem to be SSPX, SSPV and other traditional groups who at least have the guts to do what is correct even in the face of ridicule. My in laws and cousins are correct, the church is in eclipse
Posted by: John | Wednesday, March 14, 2007 at 05:48 PM
—————————————–
That is some bad stuff John. You like spiting on this blog and on others.
Anon:
Go here:
Help for Anon
Why have I been suddenly classed as a Sexual Predator by the Ruddy Birthright-selling Blog Lynch-mod Brigade? Because I noted that Some Day, who claims to know of Great Secrets In The Church That No One Else Knows, is 17? Because I have been called a “homo” by a vile troll?
But instead of thinking bad about me, who as horrible as I might be
Some Day:
Good Going!
Keep up the Catholic virtue and humility especially in the face of such evil villains like these and don’t sink to their level!
The same gross evil that has afflicted the Church and the innocent victims out there through such twisted deviants are the very same that inspire folks like John and Anon to do what they do.
Almost all the above are bogus posts. Don’t count on any of them being sent by the JA.O regulars we all know.
E-mail tags form now on would help to assure the identitiy of the sender.
Jimmy’s blog has attracted a punk troll.
A comma indicates pause…
So what is wrong with putting a comma?
There are rules in English grammar that determine where a comma can and cannot go.
E-mail tags form now on would help to assure the identitiy of the sender.
Not really — because I can still easily pretend to be you, Tim.
What this blog really needs is membership — you sign up before posting, providing a password, and therefore ensure that “Tim J” is really “Tim J”.
Tim J.,
You can tell my posts are characteristically mine.
As for one thing I found strange is the Esau responded the “homo” commenter with the same insult and called him a homo as well.
I guess its not that bad.
Actually, Some Day:
Anon has a point — just what did you exactly mean by the comment Anon referenced from you in his link?
What’s this supposed personal connection you have with the Vatican?
The last “Tim J” post was mine.
Oh man Tim J.
Whoever that is, got you good and maybe he is right. But then, the solution is not adding more rules. It is making the orginal ones followed.
Wow. This is what you do for recreation?
It must be sad to have no life.
Tired of World of Warcraft?
Wow. This is what you do for recreation?
It must be sad to have no life.
Tired of World of Warcraft?
Are you referencing me? I was just making a point — email tags won’t do any good to prevent impersonation.
Thanks for the insult, though.
Well, when your circles are more international in nature, you tend to know more things than local folk. And somethings are also vocational.
I don’t expect a simple, pious poor man to know much about great theological things.
The same applies to what you are called to do.
The religious, and certainly among sui generes orders and institutes know things more than the typical, and even many times learned Catholics.
Take the Jesuits. They know a lot of stuff.
Maybe for the wrong reasons. (opps did I say that…)
But they know.
And information is easily passed these days.
And for you skeptics, you don’t have to be the CIA to know certain things.
See many things are not secrets, but simply as I said, silenced matters.
And I just so happen to know some of those people who are in the know.
And I am not bragging. Many others are friends with Vatican insiders. Whispers in the Loggia blog, I am told, has some good friends in Rome.
Thanks for the insult, though.
Uhhh… Smoky… Don’t you think what you did to Tim J. by assuming his name came off as an insult as well?
Hey Smoky,
have you considered coming back to the Church?
Remember, we don’t live forever, but we can go whenever.
Not an insult, at all. Just an observation. What must it be like to have nothing better to do than post on blogs you don’t like, in other people’s names, just to cause a little confusion and get a giggle?
It’s depressing to imagine.
You should get out more.
One thing that always characterizes Some Day’s claims to “knowledge”: extreme vagueness.
You know, we got a bad habit of fighting on old posts.
Its got to stop. But, I’ll stop when the ones who say stupidities stop, as lies should not get the last post.
How was it an insult? All I did was make a point by showing rather than telling…I see nothing wrong with that, especially because
1.) It was clear in my “Tim J” post that I wasn’t pretending to be Tim J
2.) I immediately posted under my real handle and took credit for the “Tim J” post.
It’s no different than if you suggested a brand new lock and key system, and I showed you how I could get around it. I’d hope you would want me to point that out.
Hey Anon,
Discredit one statement I have ever made that I have never corrected myself.
At least let your yes be yes and your no be no and post your handle.
Or better yet lets just stop fighting over byzantine arguements.
Incidentally, Smoky (if I may call you Smoky), my comment about being sad was aimed at our earlier anonymous poster, not you.
From what I can tell, you are not pathetic.
What must it be like to have nothing better to do than post on blogs you don’t like, in other people’s names, just to cause a little confusion and get a giggle?
Um. I posted on a blog I do like (where’d you get the idea I don’t?), in your name once to make a point — not to cause confusion.
Sheesh.
But she does like hiking 😉
Hey Smoky,
have you considered coming back to the Church?
Of course I’ve considered it — I consider it often. Why do you think I read this blog?
It would help to remember that as you are typing an angry response, the other commenter might be writing an apology.
Refresh: ctrl + r
Actually, Some Day, to segue off something Tim J. said in his post above —
I know that many might put me down for doing this — and I don’t exactly know if I’m actually going against God’s will by my saying it — but have you ever had a girlfriend?
It’s just that you’re too young (at least, in my opinion) and seemingly too naive to enter into a Major Seminary.
I just don’t want you to enter for what might be the wrong reasons or worse, disillusionment.
I don’t mind if people might become upset by my actually saying this. It’s certainly understandable.
But if you never had a girlfriend, you might actually regret having entered the seminary, proceeding into the priesthood and, then, during your time as clergy, you end up meeting a girl who starts being the world to you — you might end up regretting your actions and, in fact, become hostile to the Church for something you had decided.
Then remember what I said before.
He waits in the confessional, because it is not the ruin of a man who forgives you…it is Him.
It would make me very happy to hear you return to the Mother Church. I will certainly pray for you.
We’re cross posting, here.
No problem, Smoky. I wasn’t ticked at you, but at someone ELSE that I believe has been posting in other people’s names.
Your point about the e-mail tags is well taken!
But she does like hiking 😉
He sure does.
Um Esau,
I thought I told you what my convictions are.
If you are sure that gravity exists, you won’t jump off a building. If you know fire burns, is there any need to test it with yourself?
It is not my vocation. The religious life is.
And anyways, the Mother Church is wise.
I am going to the Minor Seminary, and then I also must start the Noviciate.
Remember I must prove to the Church that this is my vocation. How can you do that if you aren’t certain.
Trust me, I lived and STILL live in contact with the world. But I won’t let myself get dirty and offend God by saying no to His hand and what He offers and say I want something else, something inferior to what he asks.
Advance always, retreat never! Disanimate, never!
If I am not true to my convictions, then I am true to my passions.
Disanimate, never!
I hate it when I disanimate. It usually prevents me from hiking.
Last time, I had to wait around all day until a cute girl with a little dog came by and oiled my joints. Then this wicked witch starting chasing us down the nearby yellow brick road. It became this whole thing about a wizard and something about Kansas…I won’t get into it.
God be with you, then, Some Day if that’s how strong your convictions are (and, above all, your ‘calling’), then may God guide you then.
It’s just that if you have never felt the sensual warmth of a woman’s embrace, the passionate intimacy that comes with being with the right woman, if you suddenly were to experience this for the first time —
Put it this way, I hope God may give you the strength to resist the temptation should you actually encounter an episode if and when you do become a priest.
I’m sure that if your convictions remain as strong, God will help you find a way.
Again, I’m just hoping that you remain strong.
There are ladies out there that even someone as strong as Samson couldn’t resist and, unfortunately, with all the skimpy outfits most girls wear to Mass these days, such occasions for sinful thought can arise even there.
(Sorry Some Day — I didn’t mean to detract from your post — I just found the term “disanimate” humorous).
It is a word in english right?
That was a translation from portugese.
It is a word in english right?
I’m not sure. At least, I doubt it conveys the meaning you intended. What was the portugese?
And Esau,
Samson fell because he put himself in occasions for sin.
Play with fire you get burned.
The same in your senario.
If I would have felt those illicit pleasures,
certainly, I would fall like a fool.
I have enough temptions at this age, and my current educational environment.
No need to dogde bullets and then get a gun and pull the trigger.
What it seems to me though, Esau, is that you might need to check your conscience.
You speak with a passion about the Church.
You are failing in starting a family(from what I infer from your posts. No insults intended)
You are maybe barking up the wrong tree.
God can help prevent certain stupidities on our part.
Are you sure He isn’t making sure you know your true vocation?
(and this is just infernce, which can only go so far in this blog. And one more thing:)
“Burn what you have adored and adore what you have burned.”
No romanticism or what could have been’s.
We are born for heroism and not small horizons.
The toughest times of the Church have made the greatest of saints.
Disanimate was not the word.
Discourage is.
Ah–
“Nunca desanime!”
🙂
Et como cest, das sie freunden y trabjo celaro!
That is not one language.
That is more than one.
My guess is:
And as this is, them be friend and work “celar!
Anon what is this?
Latin (Et = And) – Portuguese (como = like )- Italian (cest = hamper) – German (das sie freunden = they befriend) – Spanish (y trabajo = and to work) – Spanish (celar – to watch over).
There were a few typos, but literally, it translates:
“And like a hamper, they befriend and work to watch over.”
That’s what it says. But what it means is:
Don’t waste your time translating gibberish from an anonymous poster.
This is nuts!
Have nothing to do with the subject matter of this blog I would like to say that with the slow but steady return of the Classic Mass of St. Pius V and the steady increase in Catholic youth becoming attached to the Ancient Liturgy, I, a convert to the Ancient Catholic-Christian faith from a Baptist/anglican background have started to return to attendance at the Sacred Liturgy (which, by the way is very hard to find in the Fiefdoms of Mullah Tod Brown & the Grand Ayatollah Roger Mahoney) here in Southern California. I drifted from and totally ceased attending the Catholic Divine Liturgy as the Pauline/Bugnini service suddenly took a choke hold on catholic parishes worldwide.As i saw the Catholic mass of Paul 6 becoming more and more like the schismatic/heretical Protestant church i had just left, as i witnessed countless aberrations and abuses by bishops, Priest and the laity in the “revised post-vatican 2 mass (service) I eventually not only ceased any interest whatsoever in the “new mass” but anything the catholic Church had to say morally or metaphysically.I felt completely betrayed by the Novus Ordo church and in disgust and anger I left as did millions of other former Catholics worldwide.I have returned and NEVER will I be casual about the Mass again and as I grow in understanding the Divine Liturgy I am beginning to mature to Gods plan of salvation and that salvation rests in the Sacred Divine liturgy we call rightly or wrongly the Tridentine Mass. I care less if I attend a SSPX or FSSP or Christ the king souvereign Priest or even a sedevacantist parish (althoughI I do not adhere to sedevacantism) it matters not as long as I with the Priest and congregation kneel in adoration, supplication and penitant toward my God in the Tabernacle and kneel in awe to recieve that REAL PRESENCE. Shalom-Pacem
MORE UPDATE RE: THE MOTU PROPRIO
Tridentine Mass: Pope looks for bridge to tradition
Whether I liked or disliked, agreed or disagreed with some of the sometimes antics and aberrations of Pope John Paul 2 or those that came before him such as the dragonian pope of modernity and humanism Paul 6th or loveable & manipulated John 23. The facts are out there since the close of Vatican 2 the so-called liberal elements in the Catholic church have wrought horrendous havoc on the Catholic Church. With the obvius exception of the Traditional-Orthodox elements in the church all indicators are negative, vocations to religious orders down, priesthood vocations down, homo/hetero pedophilia way up, the mass watered down to an excecise in lutheranism and as a result literally millions have abandon the Roman Catholic Church since Vatican 2 NEVER to return. Orthodoxy and Traditionalism is on the asendancy in the Catholic church since the death of John Paul 2 and tremendous growth is occurring amoung Catholic youth in their quest for a return to the Ancient Mass of Pius V an end to the sacriledges committed daily in the novus ordo,priestly abuse of our youth and the abuses committed by liberal bishops, priests and cardinals. FOLKS IT’S NO LONGER A SIN TO BE A TRADITIONAL-ORTHODOX LATIN RITE CATHOLIC REGARDLESS OF THE BAD OLE DAYS HANGERS ON like Daneel, Ricard, Lustiger, Tod Brown and Roger Mahoney. Shalom
For forty years the post vatican 2 Bishops worldwide have been disobedient to the Popes, WHAT MAKES CATHOLICS THINK POTENTATES LIKE MAHONEY, BROWN, DANEEL AND RETIRED GRAND POOBAH WEAKLAND WOULD NOT CONTINUE TO DISOBEY THE POPE WHEN THE TRIDENTINE DIVINE LITURGY IF FINALLY LIBERATED. Revisionists like Mahoney and Ricard yearn for a vatican 3 to cement the protestant revolution called vatican 2.