Ed Peters has periodically noted that it is often private individuals who begin worthwhile initiatives that the Church may eventually take up. For example, the first efforts at codifying canon law were private initiatives, and eventually the Church came out with the first Code of Canon Law (1917).
Now Ed has come up with such an initiative himself. A decade ago, he predicted that excommunications would become more common in the Church, and there certainly have been more public reports of excommunication in recent years.
But there’s a problem: We’re now living in an age of global travel and communications, and unless steps are taken to allow the faithful to know who is and is not subject to excommunication, the rapid travel and instantaneous communicatoin that now exist can thwart the disciplinary force of excommunication.
If there’s an excommunicated person from a distant country who’s taken up residence in your town and become involved in the local Catholic community, how are the faithful supposed to check out whether or not he’s been excommunicated? Figure out what his home diocese was and then call a chancery in a country where you don’t speak the language? Or what if the excommunicated person stays in his home country and sets up a web site that people from your parish are reading? How are you supposed to learn of his excommunication? He won’t want to advertise it on his site, and he may even have technical-sounding arguments for why he’s not excommunicated.
There needs to be a central, Internet-accessible registry of excommunicated persons just like there are such registries for sex offenders.
Ideally, this would be hosted on the Vatican’s web site.
But the Holy See hasn’t started such a registry (yet), so Ed has begun one.
And, hey, if someone in the Vatican is reading this, Ed’s onto a good idea here. Y’all start one soon! It would really help clear up a lot of confusion if individuals could simply point to a registry entry to prove which people are excommunicated and thus should be regarded with caution by the faithful.
“If there’s an excommunicated person from a distant country who’s taken up residence in your town and become involved in the local Catholic community, how are the faithful supposed to check out whether or not he’s been excommunicated?”
Jimmy,
This is a sincere question, so please don’t take this the wrong way, but what are we to fear from these excommunicants when in fact there are actually those active, unfaithful clergy out there (not excommunicated) who teach on the pulpit as well as in private conversations things contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church?
This is a sincere question, so please don’t take this the wrong way, but what are we to fear from these excommunicants when in fact there are actually those active, unfaithful clergy out there (not excommunicated) who teach on the pulpit as well as in private conversations things contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church?
Obviously this does not address the admittedly continued problem of bad unexcommunicated priests. However, I think a canon lawyer and even a layperson who happens to run into these guys would find such a database useful. Especially if it gets fuller. 😉
Mr. Peters needs to clean it up a bit, and only put in actual excommunications and not mention the threats of it. If they weren’t excommunicated they should not be in the list.
I prefer using a scarlet letter ‘E’ myself…
I sincerely hope that Scott, when he says “fuller” means “more complete” (as in “more accurately reflecting the current global population of living persons currently excommunicated”). That would be a good outcome. “Fuller”, per se, would be an awful one.
I’d also hope that the operator of the list, whether layman today or Vatican official in the hoped-for future, is prepared to deal with the issue of excommunicated persons who subsequently repent and return to full communion with the Church. To have such a joyous outcome marred by the difficulty of keeping a global database in proper sync with reality would be a true shame.
I am not imputing such beliefs to Scott (whom I do not know), but there is a highly misplaced sense of triumphalism among many who discuss recent excommunications. We must be alert to remember that this tragic necessity is nevertheless _tragic_.
I do think such a database is a good idea, however, it would serve the purpose of excommunication better if it also very clearly stated if and when an excommunicate on the “list” repented and the excommunication was lifted. After all, we should rejoice when a brother or sister who has fallen away returns!
I’m unsure if that information is available to the public, though.
glesbern, the list has a few (only a few, I assure you) of the more prominent threats of excomm, precisely because so many people equate a threat from a high ecclesiastic as equal to a deed.
esau, it need not be a “fear” of such perosns in the community. it could just be an example for others who are in the boat, and have not yet been “called” on it.
chris M; where i have such information, i posted it.
I hope we see more excommunications.
We need to get rid of people who advocate things against Church teachings.
Thanks Ed, I’m glad to hear that. Keep up the good work!
I sincerely hope that Scott, when he says “fuller” means “more complete”
Yes, more complete. Yes, it would be great if every priest on the planet was both faithful and orthodox. It’s not triumphalism because excommunication is not case of one guy being in and another being cast out forever where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. It’s a disciplinary tool for bringing people back in. I am in no way a slash-and-burn Catholic and I also happen to think sometimes it is prudent to let a heretical priest fade to insignificance than break out the atomic flyswatter of excommunication. Read as a respose to Esau, I think one can tell what I was actually trying to head off a slash-and-burn attitude.
Jimmy,
I like how you called the Vatican “y’all”
This is a terrible idea to apply to anyone but the highest clergy.
There’s an entry in there about Madonna. I mean, please.
Ed, I too think this is a great idea. I however think it is organized wrong. It should be organized alphabetically by name with a status field and (threatened but not, excommunicated, returned into communion, etc.) a link to the paragraph you have explaining their status.
gee ken, your just full of good idea of ways for me to spend my diminishing reserve of wee hours in the morning 🙂
i think about it, but my point is to illustrate chronological increases in action, so….
We did have an ex-priest teach some very protestant ideas about Romans in lectures advertised and hosted by the church. The parish was going to start distributing tapes of his talks. I asked our parish priest if he hard reviewed the content of the tapes. He said he didn’t need to because the speaker was a Catholic priest. He was totally unaware the man had been laicised. Father listened to the talks and decided not to sell any tapes.
“We did have an ex-priest teach some very protestant ideas about Romans in lectures advertised and hosted by the church.”
I can top that — there was a rector in a Seminary that was teaching that the Last Temptation of Christ can actually be true.
Thus, there are active Catholic priests that can pose as great a threat to the Catholic Faith just as these excommunicants.
This is a very old idea, folks. In the early Church, one of the main reasons local churches communicated with each other was to warn each other who was coming to the area who’d lapsed, who was a heretic, and who had shown penitence and been forgiven.
Also, Mr. Peters has to list those who’ve been talked about in the news as possibly subject to excommunication, so that he can state that they have not in fact been excommunicated so far as is publicly known. Otherwise, these poor folks might be unfairly regarded as excommunicated, thanks to someone’s vague memory of such a story. Madonna has her problems and failings, but excommunication ain’t one of them.
Esau
I could not have said it better myself-did not someone say once people in glass houses should not throw stones?
Neat idea here. Of course, back when I was a Baptist, if someone moved into our congregation from another Baptist church, they would “transfer their letter.” Maybe if we just had to obtain a letter from our old parish when we moved to a new one, problem solved.
“Maybe if we just had to obtain a letter from our old parish when we moved to a new one, problem solved”
Someone help me out here but isn’t it back in Medieval days, or somewhere in yonder past, clergy transfered to another parish had to carry with them sealed papers from the archbishop of the diocese they were transferring from in order to prove their identity as well as show proof of approval of their archbishop for the transfer to the new archbishop that they would be serving under in the new territory?
“I hope we see more excommunications.
We need to get rid of people who advocate things against Church teachings.”
I cannot believe the non-Christian attitude of so many on here.I don’t know what ‘getting rid of’ would entail but perhaps we could begin with the rack and slowly move to full burnings…or just tie a stone round their necks and deep-six ’em.
The Christian thing to do is to inform them–in no uncertain terms–that they are endangering their own salvation., which is what excommunication is.
“I cannot believe the non-Christian attitude of so many on here.I don’t know what ‘getting rid of’ would entail but perhaps we could begin with the rack and slowly move to full burnings…or just tie a stone round their necks and deep-six ’em.”
Charlie, please look at Matthew 18:17:
17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
In order to communicate the severity of disobedience to the Church, Christ used the strongest language possible:
The Greek word used for the word “hearing” in Mt 18:17 is parakouo. This means to “disobey”; it is from this word we get parakoe which is the same word used for Adam’s disobedience in Rom 5:19. This is quite significant since there’s another word which could have been used instead for disobedience and this is the Greek word: apeitheia.
Furthermore, Jesus compares those who disobey the Church with two worst groups of people that the Jews despised at the time. He says he who rejects the Church is to be treated as a heathen or a publican (other translations say a gentile or a tax collector). Hence, “Excommunication”. This means that if one does not accept the teaching or the proclamation of the Church, this person ought to be ‘excommunicated’.
Choice of these terms suggests a policy of non-association with those who are disciplined by Church leaders (cf 1 Cor 5: 9-13, 2 Cor 6:14-15 in reference to the man guilty of incense).
The consequences mean that if one does not accept the teachings or the proclamation of the Church, he is to be excommunicated (i.e., separated from communion with the Church and the Sacraments); if one is excommunicated, there is a “spiritual death” since one is outside the divine life flow that comes through the sacraments and the Church.
Clarification — when I say:
The Greek word used for the word “hearing” in Mt 18:17 is parakouo.
The “hearing” I’m referring to is in reference to the ‘not hear’ in the passage: if he will ‘not hear’ the church…
Again, it seems very significant, at least to me, that the Greek word used here is one and the same that was used for Adam’s disobedience, which caused the Fall of Man. That just goes to show all the more just how severe it is to disobey the Church for the Gospel writer to have specifically chosen this particular word instead of the other Greek word that could have been used just as well.
Ed is really on to something here.
For now, it just looks like a blog of all the news articles having to do with excommunication.
As a Protestant apologist who advocates education as a foundation for a firmer faith, I think it is really important that the faithful understand that there are people out there who teach on authority that is not drawn from God, but they dress it up as though it is from God. This is dangerous and it leads people away from salvation in Christ.
I pray databases like this become more common and that Church officials of all denominations participate in this project.
Excommunication…
One of the worst consequences of Hell and on Earth.
The thought of not being in the Holy Catholic Church is horrible.
Great job Ed,
I hope for an empty list, but sadly, the true list is vastly larger because of the automatic excommunications in canon law. I do think it would be wise for the hierarchy to step up and confirm these automatic excommunicants who are public in their dissent.
I think the threats need to be published as well, I think if a threat is made that certain acts incur automatic excommunication, then one can infer that the excommunication has taken place if there is no reform. I don’t believe there is always a need for it to be confirmed.
Matt
AMDG
Thus, there are active Catholic priests that can pose as great a threat to the Catholic Faith just as these excommunicants.
The more quickly the excommunicants can be dealt with, the more time and energy there is to deal with the problematic active Catholic priests.
I am sure the eleven apostles (and Paul) would be excommunicated if subjected to an examination of their beliefs today.
And your surety is based on what?
The teachings of the Christian church have developed over time and probably will continue to do so. The Apostles would not be able to express doctrines we hold dearly since they were not formulated until centuries latter. Let’s have fun! How many Saints or ancient teachers can we name who have been excommunicated or did things we would consider requiring excommunication. One of my favoriates – St. Cyprian, he excommunicated the Pope!
“One of my favorites – St. Cyprian, he excommunicated the Pope!”
A quote, please.
This certinly would earn an excommunication today!
Cyprian, Saint
(born c. 200, Carthage-died Sept. 14, 258, Carthage; Western and Eastern feast day September 16; Anglican feast day September 26) Early Christian theologian and Church Father. He converted to Christianity c. 246 and within two years was elected bishop of Carthage. In 250 he went into hiding to escape the Decian persecution, when many Christians apostatized. The following year he returned; bishops in council supported his assertions that the church could remit the sin of apostasy, that bishops in council had final disciplinary authority, and that even unworthy laity must be accepted. In disputes with the bishop of Rome, Cyprian asserted that the people and their bishop constituted the church, that there was no “bishop of bishops” in Rome, that all bishops equally possessed the Holy Spirit, and that their consensus expressed the church’s unity. He was martyred under Valerian.
For more information on Cyprian, Saint, visit Britannica.com.
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Patrick,
Kindly read the following tract for your information — that is, if you were really interested in knowing Truth!
WILL THE REAL ST. CYPRIAN PLEASE STAND?
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9704eaw.asp
Patrick,
Your Britannica.com article doesn’t even use the word excommunicated.
May I recommend you read the Catholic Encyclopedia when seeking information about the Catholic faith and not Britannica.com.
St. Cyprian pray for us!
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
I’ve read a lot of St. Cyprian’s writings. I missed the one where he excommunicated the pope. That’s the reason I asked for a quote. (Not that I expected one).
Ed or Jimmy,
Do either of you have any idea why Victoria Rue (part of the St. Lawrence Nine) has not yet been excommunicated? She’s been causing all kinds of problems out here in California, such that our bishop has had to post warnings.
An article I wrote on female priests, some months back:
http://www.americanphoenix.net/americanphoenix/2006/04/female_priest_s.html