I’m seeking someone who speaks Latin well to help me out on something.
As part of an effort to be of service to the broader Catholic community, I’m trying to translate a number of documents that generally aren’t available in English and that aren’t likely to receive an official translation.
What I need, though, is someone to look over my shoulder and nitpick what I’m doing, because I want the translations to be as good as possible.
This AIN’T a secret project, though, so I can tell you exactly what I’m doing:
At the moment, I’ve got a translation I did of the old Rite of Excommunication and Absolution, by which a bishop would impose and rescind the sentence of anathema on a person.
It seemed to me that translating the rite would provide a tangible demonstration that a lot of what you hear about the meaning of anathemas is simply wrong. They aren’t sentences to hell. They aren’t things that take effect automatically. They were a special kind of excommunication that had to be applied with a special ceremony by the bishop and that were meant to prompt repentence (so they were lifted when the person repented). As a result, they almost never were applied to Protestants since Protestants made no pretense of being part of the Catholic community. When Trent said things like, "If anyone says X, let him be anathema" that meant basically "If anyone claiming to be Catholic says X then let him be ceremonially excommunicated" not "We hereby damn all Protestants to hell."
So it seems to me that this document would be a useful thing to have in English but, because it’s no longer used as the penalty of anathema has been abolished in canon law (Surprise! Anathemas also no longer exist!) it’s not likely to get officially translated by anybody.
So I did it.
It’s about 1400 words long in Latin and a similar (slightly longer) number of words in English. I’ve got it in a Word-readable document with the Latin and English in facing columns, lined up so that it’s easy to read one paragraph in Latin and then the same thing in English.
If you have significant Latin skills and would be willing to nitpick the translation for me, I’d really appreciate it!
Also, this is a one-time deal without a long-term commitment. I won’t come bugging you to nitpick future documents I translate.
Thanks much, and lemme know by combox or e-mail if you’d be willing to help!
Sorry, I only speak geek.
And English around my wife and family.
I’ll be happy to help. When do you need it by?
-Rob
Not to be nitpicky, but you really don’t need someone that “speaks” Latin, do you? 🙂
I can read (and even recite) Latin, but under no circumstances would I claim to be able to speak it!
And I drift from ecclesiastical to classical pronunciation when I’m not paying close enough attention. Actually, I think John Paul the Great did the same thing, but he was Pope so he could do that.
(Oh-I’m not volunteering, unfortunately I’m sure my Latin wouldn’t be good enough to be helpful. Got a minor in classical Latin in college.)
When did anathemas disappear, exactly?
Will knowledge of classical Latin be sufficient? I majored in Latin, but my knowledge of ecclesiastical Latin is limited to what I pick up in hymns.
Carus Jimmy ,
EGO sum interested in nitpicking vestri opus. EGO sum an professor user of http://www.translation-guide.com quod mos effingo quod crustulum vestri opus in site quod simulatio futurus an professor in Latin.
Suffragium DS
(Hey, it even translated my first name to Suffragium).
I’m currently teaching both Latin and religion at a Catholic school, so working through your translation would be mutually beneficial. Let me know if you would like my help.
mdeem@northwoodscatholic.org
http://evangelical-catholicism.blogspot.com
Trent didn’t need to damn all Protestants to Hell.
That would be redundant.
Dico autem vobis quoniam omne verbum otiosum, quod locuti fuerint homines, reddent rationem de eo in die judicii.
Jimmy, If you ever need an Esperanto speaker, I’m your man.
Jimmy,
Why are you doing this? It will only have the effect of further wussifying Catholicism… and haven’t you neo-Catholics gone far enough with that? First, you admit to being scared of the bone chapel. Now, you want to take the bite out of the penalty of anathema and you act gleeful over the fact that it’s no longer in use (even though it’s a sorely needed ritual and could be brought back at a moment’s notice). Generally, anything that has the effect of making Catholicism seem tough and hardcore is a *good* thing.
Inquisitor,
I agree there is something bad about using this, very beautiful document just to show that Protestants aren’t “damned to Hell.”
But fighting Mr.Jimmy like that doesn’t help anyone. I personally think we must enforce more the Justice of God into the minds of people, because they are slacking. We seem to think that everyone but Hitler and Osama makes it to Heaven.
That can’t be true. And people really think, “oh God is mercy, how could He comdemn any good person like me or a “good”muslim or “separated brothers”.”
We need to remind people that God is merciful, that in fact He recieves more glory in showing His Mercy than His Justice. And that He is slow to anger and rich in compassion.
BUT HE STILL GETS ANGRY!
And I think since the Rennaisance to now, we got a lot to pay for. Sodom was Paradise compared to this world. Everyone commits sins of the flesh, curse and party like God doesn’t exist. And then the ones who still got the custom (definitely not the Piety) of going to Mass, recieve Communion like nothing. I know people from High School, which I know what they are up to the night before, and then file up to recieve The Most Holy Lord. Do they even know God is entirely present when they recieve Communion? Maybe not, but they know that they sin, and don’t care.
When mothers kill their children, when 5th graders already lost their virginity and are doing drugs and its all cool and sometimes legal, God will not stand for this. The Angels seek vengeance. Nature itself seeks to restore the Order destroyed my Man’s sin. And it will be restored. That is why Our Lady said that punishment could be avoided, because we only get it if we deserve it. And we’ve done a good job since 1917. If she complained of immoral dress back then when men wore suits for everything and women covered down to their heels, then now even our own parents are much more in “trouble”than they where. We don’t even dress like that for Mass. Not even for your own funeral. But God has to triumph. Regardless of our sin, God has to truipmh on Earth. In time, in here. The Church must be exalted to its real dignity.
But that won’t happen with this society. That is why we need the chastisement. That will clean the Earth of its vileness, and leave room for the Reign of Mary, the Glorification of The Church even in the temporal society. Church and State, one flock, one sheapard.
Pray so that it happens quick, to get to that triumph.
Virgo Acies Ordinata, Ora Pro Nobis
Easeplay… owhay ardhay ancay Atinlay ebay?! 🙂
Ummm…. Mr. Akin?
Now, I’m no theologian, just a simple Latinist. But “We judge him damned with the devil and his angels and all the reprobate into the eternal fire” (until there is repentance and satisfaction) seems pretty clear to me. But maybe I’m missing something.
Anyway, if you haven’t found someone to help yet (which seems a bit unlikely, given the volunteers above), I’d be happy to provide my services. Arguing about the finer points of Latin interpretation is what I do for a living. Petellius@gmail.com
Incidentally, if you’ve never seen the old Richard Burton/Peter O’Toole movie Beckett, you might be interested to know that the famous excommunication scene contains almost the complete text of the ordo excommunicandi, translated into English. (It’s almost certainly an anachronism, since they used the text of the 19th century Pontificale Romanum, which is likely different than whatever would have been used back in the 12th century, but it’s still pretty cool) Plus, it’s just a good movie.