John Allen has an interview with Australian Cardinal Pell about the new translation of the Mass that the U.S. bishops will be voting on later this month.
EXCERPTS:
Where do things stand on the new Order of the Mass?
Basically pretty healthy. It’s been approved in Australia, it’s been approved in England.There’s a big vote coming up in June in the United States. Do you have any sense of what you think will happen?
I think it’ll get through.When do you expect the Order of Mass will be in use?
I’m not sure. I think that we’ll probably proceed together. I don’t think it will be approved country-by-country piecemeal, because the ambition is to have one Roman Missal for the English-speaking world, with possibly a few local variants. I think that’s a very worthy ambition.What if the American bishops vote to request significant changes? Would the Australians and the English take another look?
I’m not exactly sure. I suspect that there would be informal consultations, and very possibly if the changes weren’t too radical the Congregation for Divine Worship would either rule or suggest some compromise. But we’re talking hypothetically, because I don’t know.If this text is eventually approved, are the liturgy wars over?
I’m tempted to say that it would enormously change the balance of things, but I have no doubt there would be isolated and sporadic resistance. We have a big challenge to make the English [texts] powerful modern, appropriate and strong. We don’t want to just achieve doctrinal fidelity but have clumsy English. We’ve got the doctrinal fidelity now. The ICEL translations are coming through beautifully on that score. But I think with some of them, a few of them, the quality is quite uneven.Including the Order of the Mass?
No, I think the Order of the Mass is OK. I’m looking at other texts that are at a much earlier stage.
Wow, this sounds really promising, I think.
Just one minor note:
I’m assuming that “powerful” is meant to be followed by a comma and is thus an adjective, rather than a colloquial adverb modifying “modern.” 🙂
When do you expect the Order of Mass will be in use?
If history is any indicator, then it won’t go into effect for about a year after approval.
Pope Paul VI promulgated the Novus Ordo about a year before it acutally started being used.
Another Liturgy change?..SSPX is looking smarter everyday. If things keep getting tinkered with nbo will know what Catholic Mass is.
I say we get back to basics and have the Mass said in Aramaic, while we recline on couches around a U-shaped table, like at the first Mass.
Mark, The TLM was tinkered with for years. Go back and read your history.
I think the changes will be great. I’ve seen some of them in various articles here and there. The one good thing is that it’ll force people to stop using Marty Haugan’s Mass of Creation because the new text won’t fit with the music.
Well. Maybe. Crossing my fingers.
–Ann
I’m assuming that “powerful” is meant to be followed by a comma and is thus an adjective, rather than a colloquial adverb modifying “modern.”
Yes. It’s the powerful modern translations that we are finally getting rid of.
say it like uncle Tom: ‘that’s a powerful modern translation, messa akin’.
hehehe!
Uh oh, Jimmy, I think more charges of racism will be coming down the pike.
Can we have a moratorium on racism jokes? I know you’re joking at the race-card baiters’ expense, David B, but it’s just better not to play in the mud with them.
FWIW, the association of Southernisms with racism is itself an insidious form of urban/blue-state PC prejudice, and one that doesn’t benefit from diversity activism.
I’m sure that was part of your point, but — speaking as a born-and-bred East Coast Yankee who only lived anywhere near the South for a few years, but who nevertheless uses “y’all” as needed — I would rather not see an entire heritage tarred and feathered even in jest.
Anyway, back to the topic of liturgical reform.
Every Time I search for Thes Liturgy changes..the sites say the info has been removed to protect the secrecy of the discussions. Is there anyplace that has the proposed changes?
Mark, Rocco Palmo posted some of the proposed translations of the Order of the Mass back in September. Take a look. Try to look past Mr. Palmo’s acidic comments on the translations.
Credo
Ecce Agnus Dei and Domine non sum dignus
Gloria
portion of Roman Canon
Confiteor
on the Pro Multis
SDG,
I meant no offense to y’all south’n folk. There wasn’t a fiber of my being devoted to ‘tarring and feathering’ OUR heritage. I could have said it without the ‘uncle Tom’ bit, but where’s the fun in that? see y’all lattah!
Steven,
I never said I lived in a blue state, where’d you get that idea? I live in the middle of the country. You’re reading WAY too much into my comments, boy!
SDG,
The moratorium is now in effect.
SDG,
I meant no offense to y’all south’n folk.
While I don’t know where SDG was from originally….he’s now a Joisey guy. 😀
Jimmy;
I’m sure you’ve read the “proposed changes” listed in the post above by eweu. Do you have any comments on the Creed listed? How does that stack up against the Latin? Is that translation better than the current one and does it have the flow that has been described as missing from the current translation?
Thanks
SO much more like the Latin.
David B,
Sorry for the ambiguity — I’m the one who lives in blue-state-land.
And Barbra, you can tell I’m a born-and-bred Jersey boy (my sojourn in the Carolinas notwithstanding) by the distinctive way I pronounce the name of my state. I realize that everywhere else in the country people say “Joisey,” but here in this state, odd as it seems, we say it “Jersey.” 🙂
Steven– as a born and bred New Yorker, I’m actually inclined to blame the “Joisey” thing on the folks from Brooklyn.
I get something similar from other folks. When people find out what part of New York I’m from, they reply, “Oh—- Lawn Guyland!” Like I haven’t heard that a million times before. Only not from people who are actually from Long Island… 🙂
SDG,
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
P.S. My condolences.
Bill912-
Maronite Catholics do say the mass in Aramaic…even when they say most of it in English they always say the consecration in Aramaic.
They don’t recline around a U shaped table. But they do have the altar on a platform, called a bema, which projects out into the congregation in sort of a U shape. This apparently was taken from the way synagogues were set up. Their liturgy is one of the oldest ones.
Oh, and if you go to a Maronite liturgy..don’t ask the priest afterwords why they cross themselves like Roman Catholics, rather than like Eastern Rite Catholics. Apparently this is a sensitive subject and you will hear how they do this proudly even though at one point it exposed them to persecution.
I didn’t understand, though, why the Muslims persecuted them and not the Orthodox. Does anybody know anything about this?
And by the way, Billwhateveryournumber,what you said is kind of a throwaway comment some people make whenever anyone suggests any use of Latin, or any benefits of the older forms of the mass. I think I would use it only if I were among some folks who wanted to suggest that we try to mimic the last supper more closely in our worship, as a kind of reductio ad absurdem. It really doesn’t apply to changes which are meant to make the translation of the mass more like the actual official text of the mass. Those need to be debated on their merit. ie Are they more accurate? (yes) Are they euphonious? (debatable) and so on.
Susan Peterson