One of the pitfalls of becoming a Catholic educated in the faith is that occasions for outrage rise exponentially. One of my favorite parts of Mass as a baby Catholic was joining hands to sing the Our Father. Now I dread the touch on my arm — or the occasional poke in the ribs — that signals that someone isn’t listening to my “I don’t hold hands at the Our Father”-body language.
As I learned more about Liturgical Correctness — have you noticed that “liberal” Catholics are Politically Correct and “conservative” Catholics are Liturgically Correct? — I struggled with maintaining a sense of worship while a Mass would circle the Pit of Relativity. I wasn’t interested in signing up with radical Traditionalism but I sympathized with the outrage radical Traditionalists feel when liturgical rubrics intended to safeguard the dignity of the Mass are treated as menu options at Cafeteria Catholicism.
One article that helped me during this time was a piece Jimmy wrote on maintaining spiritual peace in the midst of problems in the Church. I especially took heed at the image of outraged congregants becoming spiritual fruitchuckers and my prayer at Mass for spiritual peace would often consist of “Lord, please don’t let me become a spiritual fruitchucker.”
Fortunately for me, over the years that I’ve attended, my parish has improved. So much so that I would unhesitatingly recommend it to anyone seeking a Good Parish in San Diego. A lot of the longstanding liturgical abuses — everything from a missing altar crucifix during Advent and Easter to a horde of EMHCs gathered ’round the altar — have been swept away. Parish life has also improved: We are blessed with perpetual eucharistic adoration (the establishment of this being the point at which I detected the shift to parish orthopraxy) and with regular retreats, missions, and seminars offered by solidly-orthodox lay speakers.
That’s why I was caught off-guard this past Sunday. Here’s what happened:
Because this Mass hosted the third Lenten scrutiny for the RCIA, we used the alternate readings, which meant that the Gospel reading was the raising of Lazarus. I closed my eyes in disgust when three of the lay RCIA facilitators traipsed up to the altar to join in the “interactive” Gospel reading — something only supposed to happen on Palm Sunday and Good Friday. But it was when one of the lay readers cordially invited us to sit for the Gospel that I had to choke back some heated commentary of my own. It had been awhile since this particular abuse had occurred but this time I managed to lower the kneeler without thumping it against the floor in outrage. (My solution to previous invitations to sit for the Gospel had been to kneel — a more profound sign of reverence than standing — rather than contribute to the spectacle by being the lone person standing.) When the “players” proceeded to use a translation not found in my missalette, I dropped my head into my hands and spent the Gospel reading praying for spiritual peace.
The show over, the priest gave a good homily but one that seemed strangely brief. Immediately we found out why: The rest of the time for the homily had been given over to a lay speaker there to encourage everyone to attend a Lenten mission he’d be conducting this week. Although I’d have preferred for the priest to have given a short homily and then invited the layman to speak during the period for announcements — he could even have mentioned at the end of his homily that the layman would be speaking during the announcements to let the early-birds know not to run out during the announcements — I found myself enjoying the talk and looking forward to the Lenten mission. Surely, thought I, the peace I’d prayed for had been granted.
Then came time for the priest to impose hands on the elect. First, though, we sat through a litany of the personal hopes and needs of each candidate. “Free X from bondage to procrastination,” chanted our cantor, “That he might find resolve in you.” Obviously X and his fellow candidates in RCIA had been asked to plug in the vice to which they were enslaved and the virtue they prayed would replace it. (Curiously, at least three candidates wanted to be freed from Demon Procrastination, so I wondered if the RCIA director had suggested it as a Sample Vice that could penned into the "vice" blank.) As I’ve done for several Lents now, I once again gave thanks that my RCIA experience in this parish ten years previously had not required me to bare my soul like this. There’s a reason the Church moved from public to private confession over a millennium ago.
Finally the priest imposed his hands and prayed over the candidates, so I thought we were blessedly done with this and could move on to the Creed. Nope. First the congregation was cordially invited to extend their hands to the elect and pray along with the priest. Then we were to “welcome” the elect with a hearty round of applause. To all the world appearing mean and curmudgeonly because I did not want to join in this, I prayed but did not extend my hand and settled for aiming a bright smile of welcome to the elect rather than applaud.
Finally, finally, it was done. The elect were sent back to their seats and we could continue with the Mass. But by this time even the priest apparently was so disoriented that he completely forgot to lead us in the Creed and the prayers of intercession, instead skipping directly to the offeratory. While the congregation was busily singing a hymn of repentance (I kid you not), I flipped to the Creed and, sotto voce, read it aloud. (I’ve found that even a memorized prayer is hard to recall when everyone else is singing a song.)
So, did I leave that Mass angry? Thankfully, no. By the time Mass was over, my spiritual equilibrium was back in place. Certainly grace played its part, but I also reminded myself how rare such spectacles had become at this particular parish. I reminded myself of the overwhelming good this parish has done, and not because I had been in any way directly involved in shaping the parish’s liturgical or communal life. A host of good people, clerical and lay, could take credit for that. All for which I could take credit — and even the credit for this that was mine was limited because God deserved most of it — was for triumphing over the temptation to become a spiritual fruitchucker.
This story is a long lead-in to another post. How do we avoid going rad Trad when the temptations to do so can sometimes be overwhelming? How do we prevent righteous anger at genuine problems in the Church from eating away at our souls like dropped acid and turning us into bitter, disaffected souls isolated from the mainstream of Catholic life? I don’t have the cure, or even an inoculation, to radical Traditionalism, but only some suggestions that may help. Those suggestions will be the focus of an upcoming post.
O-o-o-h-h, Michelle,
This reminds me of the guided meditation and group homilies of our old parish.
Ugh!
You did well to keep your peace.
With all due respect… what’s so bad about being Rad Trad?
I am grateful that these abuses are few and far between at your church, but if you’d like to come to my neck o’ the woods to see the spiritual wasteland that American Catholicism has become, you might be especially fervent in your thanks that the Lord has delivered you from making a grim choice among:
1) Heterodox Catholic services
2) (Mostly) orthodox Protestant services, obviously not in communion with Rome but much more Catholic than # 1, but lacking the Eucharist
3) (Mostly) orthodox Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy, with the Eucharist and the other Divine Mysteries, but with bitter anti-Rome diatribes tacked on
4) SSPX and/or independent chapel reverent worship, with the Eucharist and the sacraments, but also with sniping against Rome and possibly (lots of passionate debate back and forth here) schismatic to boot?
No wonder I’m more Rad Trad than anything else. I can think of a lot worse things, despite some things in the Rad Trad movement I don’t like, than a widespread return to some sort of ancient, reverent Liturgy.
I have had problems with the holding hands during the Our Father, but I was blessed with several opportunities to avoid it.
1) When I was single, the parish I used to go to openly discouraged the holding of hands during the Our Father (even posting little notes on the pews).
2) Once I got married, I found that I could get around the hand-holding problem by sitting on the end, while holding the hand of my wife, who (through the sacrament of Matrimony) is one with me – it’s like holding my own hand.
This was fine until my wife joined the choir. I could still get around this if I was an EME for that Mass, because the EMEs leave our pews at the Our Father to walk around the back and gather off to the side until after the priest receives the Eucharist. The other weeks, I then had to resort to folding my hands together and bowing my head, hoping no one would nudge me. Then came the best excuse of all not to hold hands.
3) I have a 1 year old daughter. She cannot be held with just 1 arm, except magically when I am receiving the sacred species under the guise of wine. Nobody feels the need to hold my hand when I am holding my daughter in my arms.
I figure if we can keep having infants and small toddlers until an official ruling on hand-holding, I’ll be good. 🙂
A couple of years ago I went to a Good Friday service and walked out in the middle. It began with the priest processing up to the altar. Then he sat down and conducted the entire rest of the service from the front pew. The Passion was acted by many, many people and accompanied by mood lighting and sound effects. When the liturgical dancers started just before the veneration of the cross, I left. I just couldn’t stand it.
Thank you, Michelle. I’ve always been disturbed at how bitter some folks can become about what goes on in a parish. (And then I notice myself getting just as angry–either in response to some liturgical abuse or, equally as often, in response to someone’s bitter reaction to some abuse…this whole “beam in my own eye” thing is tough.)
An honest question: why are people so adamantly opposed to holding hands during the Our Father? Is this not permitted? Have the bishops or Rome spoken on this?
I ask because, early in the process of my conversion, before I entered RCIA and understood what the Eucharist was, holding hands and singing the Our Father was one of the most prayerful points in the mass for me. Of course I know now this is not the center of the mass, but I still don’t understand how this constitutes a grave liturgical abuse.
Any light shed on that would be appreciated.
Whenever our priest asks us to “extend our hands in blessing” I only extend my right arm as in a Roman salute, but NOT very high and stiff like the Nazi.
At a nearby parish, we were recently nudged to stand during the Consecration. We ignored them and continued to kneel on the floor. ( Kneelers are a luxury of course in most of the world).
I have also attended a Benediction officiated by a lay woman. What a nightmare. I left.
Perhaps some clarification might be in order as to what you consider “Rad” Trad…. different people seem to have different definitions of what constitutes “radical” in this regard. Do you consider radical (as opposed to non-radical) Traditionalism to be a certain level of activity, including possibly:
1) Attending an indult Mass rather than a Novus Ordo?
2) Attending an SSPX chapel?
3) Outright sedevacantism?
I ask because, say, someone who attends an indult Mass might use the term RadTrad of sedevacantists; but someone who attends a Novus Ordo Mass might use it of those who go to the indult. Likewise, someone who attends a clown Mass might use the term of those who attend an Latin and/or orthoprax Novus Ordo. I am speaking only, of course, of those who use the term “RadTrad” in a derogatory fashion, and not those who use it proudly of themselves.
Or do you use it to refer to a certain outlook of bitterness & anger which is often seen in traditionalist comments on the state of the Church & liturgy? This latter can affect someone who is active at any of the three levels mentioned above, but seems to increase as you go down the list.
Michelle,
We (I mean Catholics trying to live a faithful life) fight the fight 6+ days a week. We constantly have our faith derided and must struggle to live our faith in charity and constancy. On Sunday, for most of the day, we continue the fight, if we strive to make the Lord’s day holy in the face of modern, consumer society.
What we should NOT have to do is to fight for the faith AT MASS! Is it too much to ask that for one hour a week or so, during the very act of worship of God and at the holy Sacrifice we are commanded to offer, we can be nourished and consoled?
I think not. It is not “rad trad” to attend an approved traditional Mass. You might like it. What I can tell you is that we have a wonderful parish here in St. Louis run by the ICKSP. People aren’t bitter, they’re joyful– because their faith is nourished.
There have been no converts in my church for years – at least 7. So you do have something to thank God for.
I usually avoid this problem at my parish by going to the 10:00 Latin (Novus Ordo) Mass, but my fiance will be starting RCIA soona,d that requires attendance at the 5:30 Mass, or, as she likes to call it, the Rogers and Hammerstein Mass. We attended one recently and I was so put off by elements of the Mass, though it was capped by one of those renditions of the Agnus Dei where they insist on changing the words. This upset me so much that I did not receive the Eucharist – which is foolish of me since I should have just prayed for peace and allowed Christ to soothe my soul, especially since the Mass itself is not really as bad as the ones I’ve heard about from others.
This does concern me, though, because we’ll have to attend this Mass for at least a year, maybe more depending on how RCIA progresses. Lucklily the presiding priest at 5:30 sometimes is our very young and very orthodox new priest, but I’ve heard from a friend of mine that the usual presider is one who tends to give, as he puts it, Maureen Dowd-like homilies. This will truly try my patience.
Whenever I’m at a Mass like that I tend to get upset, but eventually I am able to block out all those trifles and recognize that I am in the presence of Christ. But it can be difficult, and as someone who does prefer the Tridentine, it’s even that more painful.
I don’t think you have to go “Rad Trad” to avoid these types of situations. If Mass is routinely agitating your soul, I just think you have to see if you can go elsewhere, because Mass should not be a trying experience. But it sounds like a rare thing for your parish, so I think the best thing is to sweep it under the rug and forget about it. But also, we can help change our communities for the better. We are the laity, and just as some members of the laity have contributed to these liturgical abuses, we can work to try and correct them. Become more active in the parish, get on the whatever liturgical board it might have – or some other formation committee, and be an agent for change. At least that’s what I intend to do.
Ah Fond memories I have of my RCIA experience. I was a revert.I returned to the Church after 25 years of wondering in Charasmania, Word of faith and Fundamentalism. At the age of 45, I returned to my Catholic roots that haunted me. I sought the Blessings of Confirmation and had to endure my RCIA instruction that had no guidlines or direction. A director that tried to spin everything in a Protestant direction with hand holding and very little instruction. At one point we attended a “dry” Mass so they could explain what happened. I bit my lip as many didnt genuflect and leaned on the altar. We did very little discussion of the Catholic faith..but the coffee and cookies were great! It is now a 2 year program at our parish..they get baptised the first year and confirmed the second Easter! My parish still holds hands during prayer, raises their hands with the priest and despite direction from Our new Pastor. THEY still clap after Mass and immediatly start talking while others are kneeling (WE no longer kneel from the Holy Holy Holy to the Great Amen..some new teaching..i guess that we have from our american pope down Southin L.A!) in prayer! Our new priest are faithful to the Church and continue to guide us but The parish is strong in the “Dark Side”. This the parish I grew up in that said Latin. The first parish to turn its Altars around aftyer Vat2. Our Pastor Emeritus and a Monsignor has been essentially ostercized out of the Parish (A faithful 80 year old priest that pastored only one parish- Ours….I am so disheartened that I go to a “RadTrad” to find some Catholic teaching and reverence. I am even considering SSPX down the street because they are closer. Being “RadTrad” maybe the last sanctuary for the Catholic faithful if we continue this path.
Dear Michelle,
(Taking inspiration from you by not naming the pertinent parish. We both know where I serve as associate, and we both know where you go to church.) Little by little, I’m doing my part to help good people in the parish to tidy up things so they’re more in line with our obligations as professed members of the Church.
Several persons joining the priest in reading the roles in the Gospel. There is resistance to an effort to end this particular practice.
Using the wrong translation of the Gospel. I’ve already obtained an agreement that we need to update to the current approved translation. The challenge is not only for the Scrutiny Masses, but also for a few of the feastdays proper to this parish, when the parish supplies to the congregation copies of all the readings for Mass. E.g., the parish patron saint’s feast: same printed-on-cardstock programs re-used every year, but with the former approved translation, rather than the current.
Liturgical options within the R.C.I.A. Hoo-wee! Quite a few options have been opted in and opted out. There is legitimate (published) permission for adaptation to persons and circumstances within the R.C.I.A. rites. The problem for me is in my wishing to say, “I would prefer that you not exercise that particular option,” or, “I would prefer that you not exercise that option in that particular fashion.”
The Profession of Faith (the Creed). The R.C.I.A. rubrics for Mass do permit the omission of the Creed when the Scrutinies take place. I’m not in favor of that, but it’s a legitimate option, and I’m not the pastor of the parish.
I, too, am tempted to be a “spiritual” fruitchucker. (AND … if I were a pastor, I would no longer be tempted–I would BE a chucker: OUT goes this option, OUT goes that, IN comes this rubric, IN comes that.)
May the Holy Spirit continue to bless your good spirit!
.
for Pritcher…
QUERY: In some places there is a current practice whereby those taking part in the Mass replace the giving of the sign of peace at the deacon’s invitation by holding hands during the singing of the Lord’s Prayer. Is this acceptable? REPLY: The prolonged holding of hands is of itself a sign of communion rather than of peace. Further, it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics. Nor is there any clear explanation of why the sign of peace at the invitation: “Let us offer each other the sign of peace” should be supplanted in order to bring a different gesture with less meaning into another part of the Mass: the sign of peace is filled with meaning, graciousness, and Christian inspiration. Any substitution for it must be repudiated: Notitiae 11 (1975) 226. [Notitiae is the journal of the Congregation in which its official interpretations of the rubrics are published.]
Note the instruction “REPUDIATED”! This means it is forbibben and that it is not wanted.
Heres one for Jimmy…In a new parish building..The tabernacle is behind athe altar seperated witha wall! 5 feet from the exit! Oh it gets better…IT PLEXIGLASS..so the faithful can see the glass chalice and Jesus glass ciboreum! The priests wear pin stripped suits with their collars! And NO KNEELERS ANYWHERE!!!!!! Oh and totop the SUNDAE ( pun intended) The altar is a varathaned peice of rough Oak stump!!!!!!!! that is bare until during Mass ..the congregation carries out the Altar cloth and “dinnerware”. Oh yes..the Hosts are in a basket!…Now tell why “radtrad” is bad ?…Blessings Jimmy
Thanks, Pseudomodo…that makes sense, as far as it goes.
But I’ve never participated in a mass where the holding hands “supplanted” the sign of peace; it’s never been (in my experience, at least, but maybe I’ve just been lucky) a “substitution,” only, as you’ve cited, “a sign of communion.”
Are you really of the opinion that Catholic Traditionalism is a sin which temptations to must be guarded against, or even a disease for which you must search for a cure or an innoculation?
Words fail in the face of such condescension.
“An honest question: why are people so adamantly opposed to holding hands during the Our Father? Is this not permitted? Have the bishops or Rome spoken on this?”
Aside from the fact that it is not called for in the rubrics, there are many reasons why people object to holding hands during the Our Father. For many people, hand-holding is a very personal action shared with those who are very close–spouses, lovers, parents and children. To be forced to participate or appear hopelessly churlish is unfair and embarrassing to them. A person who does not wish to hold hands in a congregation of people who have come to fully expect everyone to hold hands, is forced to take a perceptively negative action, i.e. actively declining to hold hands. This marks that person out as an unfriendly boor when, ironically, all they are doing is declining to participate in an act that is not even required!
What about the objection “At Mass we are all supposed to be one big family anyway; we should be able to show the love we are supposed to feel.” Well, that is the express purpose of “the kiss of peace” before Holy Communion. In some cultures, a fraternal gesture is literally a kiss. In the Orient, it is a polite bow. In our culture, it is a friendly shaking of hands. To go from a more intimate expression of love (holding hands) to a less intimate (a handshake) does not make any sense. If someone wants to hold hands with their spouse or kids during the Our Father, it’s a nice personal gesture. When the entire congregation automatically goes into the s-t-r-e-t-c-h across the pews mode at the invitation to pray, it becomes intrusive and presumptive.
Frankly, I am astounded that people go to so much trouble to defend any un-mandated action that, effectively, forces other people, willing or not, to participate. If someone wants to individually whirl like a dervish or bounce on one foot, or pick their I-don’t-know-what and it makes them feel holier to do so during Mass, then they should go for it. But for goodness sakes, just because it makes them feel good, they shouldn’t insist on promoting an un-mandated practice that makes others feel like boors if they don’t feel the same way about it and decline to play along.
Michelle,
Your post really resonated with me. It’s sad, isn’t it, when the greatest consolation so many Catholics have is, “Well, the liturgical abuse at our parish could be a whole lot worse.”
This is the third Lent in which our parish has decided to skip the official Penitential Rite and replace it with their own construct. As the Priest & Co. process to the altar, the cantor leads the people in singing what they call a penitential litany, to each phrase of which the people respond, “Hold us in your mery.” When the priest reaches the alter, everyone is supposed to kneel until the end of the song. When it’s over, having skipped both the Introductory Rite and Pentitential Rite, the priest launches into Opening Prayer and then the Liturgy of the Word.
The first year, I wrote a letter to the pastor (citing relevant documents) pointing out that although it was laudable to try to bring the congregation to a greater sense of the penitence proper to Lent, that this sort of change was illicit. No response of course, and things have remained the same every Lent since. (Though I notice that this year at least one priest is inserting the prayer of absolution at the end of the song.)
Because of a commitment to unlock and work in the parish library every Sunday, I can’t feasibly attend a Mass at a different parish. (And who knows, things may be even worse at surrounding parishes!) But I salve my conscience by withholding my active participation as well as my regular donations during Lent (which I then send to a Catholic charity).
And now, thanks to you Michelle, I will also pray for spiritual peace.
“Are you really of the opinion that Catholic Traditionalism is a sin which temptations to must be guarded against, or even a disease for which you must search for a cure or an innoculation?”
But especially contradictory is a notion of Tradition which opposes the universal Magisterium of the Church possessed by the Bishop of Rome and the Body of Bishops. It is impossible to remain faithful to the Tradition while breaking the ecclesial bond with him to whom, in the person of the Apostle Peter, Christ himself entrusted the ministry of unity in his Church. APOSTOLIC LETTER “ECCLESIA DEI” OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF JOHN PAUL II
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
The whole Rad Trad problem comes from two opposing evils; liturgical abuse and doctrinal dissent on the one hand, and schism on the other.
Neither can be excused or commended.
I applaud those who can attend an approved indult Mass. There is not one (that I know of) within driving distance of our parish, but if there were, I would be there every Sunday. If you have access to an approved Latin Mass, you are very blessed.
I am a traditionalist, but I would never dream of letting that drive me away from communion with Peter.
The emptiness of these novel liturgical fumblings is becoming evident. The traditional Mass will make a comeback. In the meantime, pray, wait on the Lord and remain united with His Church.
I really hope that B16 helps to re-enchant the mass. It seems that the liturgy has absolutely collapsed in the US. The mass is celebrated so poorly in my neck of the woods that (during my conversion from Protestantism) I actually thought of going Eastern Orthodox or SSPX because I thought “How could anything so ugly be true?”.
Luckily, I did find a parish that celebrated an NO mass with Latin, chant, ad oreientem, incense, communion rail, altar boys, orthodox homilies, etc. It was nice to know that there are some parishes out there that are not afraid to look and act Catholic.
“But especially contradictory is a notion of Tradition which opposes the universal Magisterium of the Church possessed by the Bishop of Rome and the Body of Bishops.”
If you will read again you will find that this does not refer to Traditionalism but only a notion which claims Tradition but which opposes the Magisterium. You should further note that the Ecclesia Dei indult encouraged Bishops to allow the celebration of the traditional liturgy, not suppress it.
Between the self-rightous condemnations coming from the SSPX and the Novus Ordo Catholics, what is a Tradition loving, Tridentine liturgy worshipping, Magisterium loving Catholic to do?
Pray for peace and have faith the Holy Spirit will put things to right.
The sad part form me is that Sunday at my family parish is one of the more stressful days of my week. As others have said “it could be worse” but how are we supposed to evangelize others when we are leaving Mass with a cloud over our heads?
One strength of our faith is the authority held by our pope and bishops, so why is liturgical abuse still a problem?!?
I am a traditionalist, but I would never dream of letting that drive me away from communion with Peter.
Well spoken, Tim J. Thx for the quote from Ecclesia Dei, Inocencio.
There is clearly increasing interest in traditional Mass. This has been true in my life, and I hear evidence of it in others increasingly often. I think that these are evidence of a deep hunger for increased reverence, for a greater participation in the holy mysteries. And that is clearly a fruit of the Holy Spirit—how could it be anything else?
With that in mind, I think it’s valid for this increased reverence to show up in the Novus Ordo, as it clearly does in the Benedictine community Mass (with their many forms, including both Latin and English elements etc.) that I’m often able to attend frequently. I think the same can be said for the indult Masses, which our archdiocese is blessed to have two communities offer daily. Of the two I prefer the Novus Ordo with the Benedictines (both in Latin and English forms), but for others the indult Mass seems best. And there are other valid ways to express the increased reverence as well.
so why is liturgical abuse still a problem?!?
I think there are many causes, but another way to look at it is to wonder what we can we do to change it?
Prayer, speaking out, and … I may well be wrong, but I think some key parts of changing the qualities of the liturgy are to truly endeavor to treat the mass as the Mass, stay faithful to the Magisterium, grow in personal holiness, and charitably call our communities to the same. What form that takes will vary from parish to parish, but we can be at peace that as long as we’re obedient to the Magisterium we’re at least moving in the right direction.
And somewhere in there we’ll see a small glimmer of the freedom that comes from obedience!
How do we avoid going rad Trad when the temptations to do so can sometimes be overwhelming?
That’s easy, you just go to the SSPX publisher’s website and see that they’re selling collections of essays by Noam Chomsky, Eric Margolis and Robert Fisk!
http://www.angeluspress.org/index.php?act=warehouse&info=8145
Wackos.
🙂
“spiritual wasteland that American Catholicism has become”
Wow! I don’t like holding hands either but sheesh.
Lets go to a movie theater, and see Passion of the Christ, but rather than focus on the supernatural aspects of mass, or the story of Christs passion lets complain about the uncomfortable chairs, how that AmerMark theater down the street has better sound equipment, or better statutes and special effects, or how the audio skipped a part.
I go to college, and at our parish our Lady has brought together so many from all parts of the state for her Son. There are masses with guitars, sure, not my preference, but there are also college students learning classic latin hymns for other mass times.
We have been blessed by two priests who celebebrate the liturgy so beautifully.
Daily mass attendence is extremly high! There is adoration every day. (Not perpetual because of saftey concerns, but from 7am until 11pm.) But there is perpetual adoration at a neighboring parish and it is not unusual to see a group of college students trapse in at 3 in the morning. There are many young men and women discerning their vocation, to marriage or religious life.
There are activities going on every day of the week, from Bible study, to groups based on the Catechism, Theology of the Body, Praise and Worship groups, and more.
Anyway, these people God sends forth across the state, even world. I have seen the effect they have had on the parishes they are sent to, bringing them a richer celebration of the Liturgy, more respect for Sacred Scriptures, and more fidelity to the bark of Peter. Most of all Christ puts in them a zeal for his sacred heart!
I know how you feel about liturgical abuses, Christ’s children deserve better, but don’t be so dour about the Church. I think God has a few tricks up his sleeves.
I’m currently in a three year Scripture program. Our leader has told us something that has really helped. “You don’t always have to be right.” Yes what went on was wrong but the general direction of your church is good. If this continued then yes you have a problem and need to speak up.
Your second to last paragraph made the article worth reading. I confess to having the same problems – often. We must focus on the Eucharist. Jesus Christ is still made present on the altar and we are able to receive him. Thinking anything less helps the Devil giggle. Getting angry does no one any good. Finally, telling everyone about it does no one any good. It helps those of us with that particular vice continue to fall into it. The priest should be talked to, and only him. We must overcome this vice with extraordinary humility and charity by the grace of God. Prayer is essential. The only ones who can change this are God and the priest. Those are the ones we should tell.
God started healing me of this vice when I went to a totally orthodox parish and experienced uncharity and disgust at a mere peep from my children. How dare I allow my children to disturb their Mass and prayertime? My kids were not being disruptive, either.
The one side may be politically correct, but the other side is leaning towards phariseeism. Do we ever consider that perhaps Our Lord is speaking, loving and filling with His grace those who
enjoy so-called “bad liturgy?” Something keeps them coming back.
God Bless,
SQ
Michelle,
Thanks for your post. I am saddened to hear about what my fellow Catholics have to endure in the Midwest, South, and West Coast on a weekly basis.
Luckily, having attended Mass most of my life in the Washington, Philadelphia, and Wilmington, DE, dioceses, a fairly orthodox parish can almost always be found within 5-6 miles.
A few Sundays ago, thanks to a busy schedule that forced me to miss morning mass, I had to attend a Sunday evening student mass at the Villanova University Chapel. We were treated to a homily about “Why We Stand,” rather than kneel, during the Eucharistic prayer. Somehow, he tried to tie in the 3 societal sins of pollution, poverty, and the child sex trade (if he had at least mentioned abortion, I could have forgiven most of the situation).
The clincher was something along the lines of, “We are not here to worship Jesus, but to stand, united with Jesus, as we worship the Father.” Naturally, we had the whole hand-holding experience. The individual baskets for the offeratory were brought up to and dropped in front of the altar by whatever student was the last to receive the basket, making the altar look like a big revolving door, with students coming from all directions during the preparation of the gifts.
The fact that this made me cringe so much only led me to worry about the people who have to endure MUCH worse on a weekly basis. Considering a week before (at another Philadelphia parish), the priest spoke at length about how artificial birth control goes against natural law and damages the family, I suppose I have much to be thankful for.
We must continue to pray for good bishops and strong vocations to help cleanse the church in greater America.
Question: What if a priest preaches something obviously and viciously heretical during his homily? Is correcting a misleading lie about Christ a sufficiently grave reason to interrupt?
Hi, Michelle
I really enjoyed your blog entry.
Wow, you and I seem to have some things in common. I, too, entered the church about 10 years ago (and I’m also in San Diego).
My parish (the one I where I was received into the Church) is a bit on the “liberal” side. And, I’m very involved in music and catechesis and being a “baby Catholic” as you put it I was just in this honeymoon stage of loving the mass and not really questioning liturgical abuses.
Well, due to some shake-ups in my parish (and my discovering “blogs”) I’ve just recently really started to delve into the issues of liturgical (as well as theological) abuse (so I haven’t yet experienced righteous indignation yet…but it’ll probably come). It’s a little bit of a humbling experience..stepping back and looking at things and questioning old assumptions. But since I do teach CCD and on occasion RCIA I feel it’s very important for me to learn these things and not just go with the flow. (Besides I’m sort of a theology geek anyway and love learning this stuff 🙂
Anyway…just wanted to thank you for your perspective (and I was a little curious which parish you are talking about).
God bless,
Jennifer
My biggest problem in my parish is not so much liturgical abuse, although there some of that, is that the liturgy is just mediocre.
* Musical pablum of the Hagen and Haas type.
* The penetential rite always in “Form C” – direct to “Lord has mercy..” It has been over a year since I have said “I Confess…”
* The “Ubiquitous Song Leader” doing their lounge act, er, I mean cantoring.
* The army of EMHCs who never fail to scandalize me with their dress and/or behavior.
I’m not saying that everything is horrible, but it is such a distraction that it is almost impossible to focus on why I am in Church to begin wtih.
Sorry, make that “Lord have mercy…”
+J.M.J+
Mark writes:
>>>Now tell why “radtrad” is bad ?
“Radtrad” is not simply a synonym for traditionalist. It refers to certain traditionalists who become extremists, schisming from the Pope and/or embracing anti-semitism, conspiracy theories, etc. This is what Michelle is criticizing.
Not every traditionalist is a radtrad, and one need not be a radtrad (or even a traditionalist, for that matter,) to be disgusted by the situation Mark describes above.
I just see this over and over again on different blogs: the blogger complains about “radtrads” and some traditionalist (who is definitely not a radtrad) takes umbrage, as though it were directed at him. *sigh*
In Jesu et Maria,
This post speaks to me. Understanding that others are going through the same struggles as myself helps me find peace, and something to focus on during Mass at those times when I may be inclined to be angry. My least favorite thing is to be angry at a time when I should be meditating and devoting all of my energy to the Lord. Fortunately, I believe the “liberation of the liturgy” will pass with a certain generation of priests. Most of the younger generation of religious are more “conservative” and orthodox in their theological approach.
“If you will read again you will find that this does not refer to Traditionalism but only a notion which claims Tradition but which opposes the Magisterium.”
That was the point.
“Pray for peace and have faith the Holy Spirit will put things to right.”
Amen! and if possible volunteer at a local parish and offer your obvious knowledge and zeal. The more orthodox Catholics involve themselves at the local level the more impact we can have. It takes time, patience and charity but what could be of more value than educating our fellow Catholics of the beauty and power of the Holy Mass?
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
A response to Michelle’s lament:
Lumen Gentleman Blogspot.
Then head over to Fish Eaters.
Michelle-
I am a first time poster and this is only the second article that I have read from you. I sincerely do not understand the point of this article.
You know that the NO is prone to this kind of behavior. You know that, inspite of apparent conservative leanings in any parish, the liturgy can go south fast. Why do you persist in attending the NO and then complain about it?
If you didn’t know there is a TLM in San Diego, approved by His Excellency Brohm at Holy Cross, where these ‘abuses’ don’t happen. (I know because I go there.)Why not take yourself out of a bad situation, especially when the diocese allows you the option?
If you stay in the NO then you have to expect that this kind of liturgy will rear its head at one time or another. It makes no sense, in my opinion, to be suprised or angry when it does.
I am truly sorry that this mass happened to you but you do have options to ensure that you never have to “survive” another sunday mass again….
GOD bless us all during this Passiontide-
BLM
Michelle,
I sympathize with your experience having to endure various violations of the rubrics during the Mass.
However, there was one place where you incorrectly thought a rubric was being violated. You said that after the Third Scrutiny was finished, “even the priest apparently was so disoriented that he completely forgot to lead us in the Creed and the prayers of intercession, instead skipping directly to the offeratory.”
In fact, it is a legitimate option of the priest to omit both the Creed and General Intercessions after the Scrutinies in Lent:
“When the eucharist is to follow, intecessory prayer is resumed with the usual general intercessions for the needs of the Church and the whole world; then, if required, the profession of faith is said. But for pastoral reasons these general intercessions and the profession of faith may be omitted. The liturgy of the Eucharist then begins as usual with the preparation of the gifts.” (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults, 177)
There are also other circumstances where the Creed and general intercesssions may be omitted, when another liturgical rite is inserted after the Liturgy of the Word, such as the Rite of Enrollment, or a Baptism.
Because the liturgy of the Church is found in so many different documents, at times one may think the rubrics are being violated when, in fact, a legitimate option is being exercised.
My own opinion: What the Church needs is a fresh reading of “Sacrosanctum Concilium,” the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, from the Second Vatican Council.
Our new Pope Benedict might be leading us in that direction, thanks be to God!
“For the liturgy is made up
of immutable elements divinely instituted,
and of elements subject to change.”
It seems that, in large part, the first attempt at implementing Sacrosanctum Concilium included assumptions at all levels of the Church, from laity up to Cardinals, that just about everything was “subject to change.”
And over the last 40 years, things have changed officially this way and that way,
and unofficially in every which way,
with a lot of resulting confusion, anger,
and disappointment.
Face it, the Vatican II liturgy is, currently,
in a state of chaos.
In regards to the Missal, the Mass:
a. Vatican is on 3rd edition (2002)
b. English-speaking bishops on 1st edition (1975), with GIRM from 3rd edition.
c. Average parish is on local adaptation from 1st edition, with bishop-specific conformities to 3rd edition GIRM.
d. Readings/Lectionary are 2nd edition (1980’s).
e. Music is “whatever works,” with no draft Episcopal guidelines ever developed, and Vatican promulgated Chant mostly ignored.
In regards to the Divine Office, Liturgy of the Hours:
a. General Instruction (GILH) specified 2 year cycle of Scripture readings never published
b. GILH specified Lectionary of patristic and ecclesial readings, and local episcopal lectionary of ecclesial readings, never published.
c. English-speaking world on 1st edition (1970’s)
d. Vatican on 2dn edition, with some revisions.
In regards to RCIA:
a. English-speaking Rite approved in 1980’s.
b. No guidance on what consititutes an RCIA program, who is approved to teach it, what is the catechetical content. Catechists range from well-meaning, but ignorant volunteers to religious and clergy (such as deacons) with wild, heterodox opinions.
c. Rites laregely ignored or adapted on the ground in parishes.
Is it any wonder that people find this situation confusing, if not discouraging?
Sorry, I got carried away and forget the other quote I wanted to mention from SC:
==
In this restoration, both texts and rites should be drawn up so that they express more clearly the holy things which they signify; the Christian people, so far as possible, should be enabled to understand them with ease and to take part in them fully, actively, and as befits a community.
==
We really are not doing well at the “full, active participation” thing.
Instead, what we now have is a new form of the traditional “servers” that do the people’s part. But now we call them Lectors, Cantors, Lay Ministers, etc. All those lay folks that you see in the sanctuary, often doing things with the local pastor’s approval, rubrics be damned.
And the faithful are back to doing the much dreaded “private devotions” in the pews.
Only now, the “private devotions” are not the rosary, but things like reading the actually readings (instead of dramatic or politically correct adaptations proclaimed from the ambo), or praying the Creed, so often omitted, or kneeling, or a number of other things that the people in the sanctuary feel free to change or omit.
The current implementation of Sacrosanctum Concilium is a mess, and missing the goals of Vatican II.
http://www.zenit.org/english/
Zenit has good liturgical resources, including the subject of not holding hands during the Our Father:
http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=44754
“…The process for introducing any new rite or gesture into the liturgy in a stable or even binding manner is already contemplated in liturgical law. This process entails a two-thirds majority vote in the bishops’ conference and the go-ahead from the Holy See before any change may take effect.
Thus, if neither the bishops’ conference nor the Holy See has seen fit to prescribe any posture for the recitation of the Our Father, it hardly behooves any lesser authority to impose a novel gesture not required by liturgical law and expect the faithful to follow their decrees.
…”
Old Zhou:
I for one have been tempted to sit in the back and pray the Rosary during a NO mass, and wondered whether that would really be so bad.
Well praying the Rosary during the celebration of Mass does go against the express intent of the Magisterium, as in, where we’re enjoined to seek “active and conscious participation” etc.
So sorry to hear that you’re frustrated … my guess is that you’re being there is the first step in obedience, praying for grace to fully particpate is the next step, and undoubtedly God will honor your actions.
Sorry for the bad formatting, should have been:
Well praying the Rosary during the celebration of Mass does go against the express intent of the Magisterium, as in Redemptionis Sacramentum, where we’re enjoined to seek “active and conscious participation” etc.
So sorry to hear that you’re frustrated … my guess is that you’re being there is the first step in obedience, praying for grace to fully particpate is the next step, and undoubtedly God will honor your actions.
Ah oh. Another liturgy thread. They’re usually good for a hundred comments, aren’t they? If you’re a Catholic and you have a pulse, chances are you’ve got a strong opinion about the liturgy.
On to Michelle’s questions:
How do we avoid going rad Trad when the temptations to do so can sometimes be overwhelming? How do we prevent righteous anger at genuine problems in the Church from eating away at our souls like dropped acid and turning us into bitter, disaffected souls isolated from the mainstream of Catholic life?
I’ll give my answer, but first let me start with my non-Trad and non-HighBrow credentials: I’m way too common to be an aesthete. I’ve never been to a Latin Mass of any kind. I wouldn’t know the difference between Palestrina and pinochle. My preferred cigarette is Marlboro, my preferred drink is whatever happens to be in the fridge, my preferred uniform is jeans and a sweat-shirt, and my preferred TV show is whatever Western happens to be playing on the classic movie channel. And spirituality? The best “spiritual director” I ever had was a Marine drill instructor. Really.
I used to get really agitated about all those sappy liturgical “innovations”, but nowadays I’m just weary of fretting over a bad situation that shows few signs of getting better. We have a Mass that was intended to please everybody in 1970, but has ended up pleasing no one in 2006. I’m pretty sure that Pope Benedict knows about the problem and wants to address it. I even believe that a good number of bishops are aware of the problem and want to do something about it. (Yeah, I know, silly me.) In spite of everything, I have enough faith to believe that the Church will one day get its act together re the Mass, but I’m sure that’s not going to happen fast enough to please all those good Catholic folks who suffer from innovation overload. This means that everybody has to cope; everybody has to deal with it; everybody has to make their choices.
Me? I’m gonna go with what we’ve got. I, for one, will stick with Peter and I’ll keep on believing the Promise. For those who won’t or can’t, and who justify their departure with high-sounding arguments that mask valid frustrations and dissapointments–hey, I understand. I know darned well that the Protestant impulse beats big in every human heart, and that every one of us at one time or another has used sweet sophistry to put a halo on our infidelities. But I was Protestant once. I’ve been off the bark of Peter and it’s no place I ever want to be again. If you ain’t on deck, you’re swimming with the sharks. Capiche?
Life really is too short, so for me the liturgical issues have become very simple, very basic. When I’m at Mass these days, I simply want to pray. That’s all. How do I pull that off? I begin with an axiom, move on to a method, and end with a flourish of defiance.
The axiom: This side of heaven, there’s no such thing as a liturgy that’s celebrated in accord with my every want, need, desire, taste, sensibility, and inclination.
The method: In a lowest-common-denominator world you have to come up with a lowest-common-denominator solution. You have to find a place where you can actually pray when you go to Mass–a place where you’re not too distracted by bad architecture and art, where the music doesn’t intrude too heavily upon your peace, where the homilies don’t veer too far into weirdness, and where the priest sort of does what the red text in that red book on the altar tells him to do. Find a place like that, count your blessings, and call it a day.
The flourish of defiance: Here I stand (right here in the mainstream of Catholic life). I can do no other.
“Because the liturgy of the Church is found in so many different documents, at times one may think the rubrics are being violated when, in fact, a legitimate option is being exercised.”
Yeah, but it is so much more fun to be holier-than-thou.
This story is a long lead-in to another post. How do we avoid going rad Trad when the temptations to do so can sometimes be overwhelming? How do we prevent righteous anger at genuine problems in the Church from eating away at our souls like dropped acid and turning us into bitter, disaffected souls isolated from the mainstream of Catholic life?
I recently completed home-schooling my daughter in religious ed, leading up to her confirmation. As a “field trip” we went to the local indult mass (ad orientem and all that).
I remember the Latin mass fondly as an altar boy, and thought I would naturally slip right back into the attitudes of prayer I remember as a child.
Fully 75% of the women were veiled (my daughter, being a “modern girl” was not among them). The priest did not wear a mic, and since he was talking to the altar, I couldn’t make out what he was saying so I could follow along in the missal. I didn’t have to. The choir did that for us. All we had to do was sit and watch… ummm… kneel and watch… umm… stand and watch… kneel and watch… sit and watch… The common thread was “watching”, and we really didn’t know when to sit stand and kneel (well, sort of but we discovered that our timing was off).
This was the first time that my daughter had ever received on the tongue. We didn’t even need to say “Amen”, the priest did that for us also. I also noticed that even though we were kneeling reverently, and taking communion on the tongue (like I still do), the priest was doing the “auctioneer’s communion” corpuschristiamen corpuschristiamen corpuschristiamen corpuschristiamen corpuschristi amen corpuschristiamen corpuschristiamen…
I also noticed something else… Since the advent of the indult mass at 8:30am at this parish, the community had broken up into two communities. There was the “Latin mass people” and “the ‘normal’ people”. And if “those ‘Latin mass people’ happened to be at another one of the Novus Ordo masses, they wouldn’t even give you the sign of peace!”
I harken back to our parish now, where we have a new pastor who really shook things up. He treats the Blessed Sacrament like he really believes that it is the Body of our Lord and Savior. He got the EMEs out of the sanctuary, and moved the tabernacle there. We have Benediction after Stations of the Cross on Fridays during Lent, and we have a new votive candle rack in the “prayer chapel” (former “eucharistic chapel”).
We have a dedicated core of faithful Catholics who are sticking by the pastor through thick and thin, taking on the Devil with rosary, adoration, benediction, prayer and Eucharist.
If all of the orthodox leave the parish to join their own exclaves, there will be nobody left to pray, help and work with the utmost caritas, gently guiding our brothers and sisters and showing them the benefits of respect and reverence at mass.
It will catch on. Trust me on this. I know because at my parish it is. I have never seen more people in the parish than I did last week, and many of them are new and returning from week to week (I see them because I volunteer to cantor at multiple masses because I’m one of a dozen or so music ministers left).
For Holy Thursday, the plan is Gregorian Chant for the eucharistic procession. I can’t wait.
Keep the faith.
Thanks to the two priests who mentioned that at least one of the occurences at the Mass was a legitimate option. I’m not always right, which also helps my spiritual peace. 🙂
… Although I do wish that such options were announced so that the congregants would know that the priest is exercising a legitimate option and not making a mistake.
Tony,
With respect, you cannot go to one TLM and issue the comments you made–not if you want to be fair. It takes time to acquaint oneself (or reacquaint) to a rite in a different language with different modes of participation. Your posts amounts to saying, in essence, “that Mass was different than the one I’m used to so I don’t like it”.
What you describe as mere “watching” are opportunities for active participation in the Mass. Speaking out loud is merely one type of participation. If you don’t believe me, ask yourself what is the MOST sublime moment of participation in the novus ordo Mass, the moment of most intense participation by you during the Mass. If you say, the moment of consecration– the unbloody sacrifice of our Lord for us– then you will note that you are silent at this time.
The words of the Priest at communion are “Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi custodiat animam tuam in vitam aeternam. Amen” We don’t respond amen because our assent is not required to make the species into the Body and Blood of Christ. The priest truly acts “in persona Christi” and intercedes for Christ’s Body, the Church.
I will make a friendly wager with you, and say that if you attend the TLM for seven straight days you will feel differently. Or at least, your rejection of it will be based on better information.
If people like Michelle and others who are well educated in their faith and true believers are discomforted by some of the practices at the NO Mass, spare a thought for the millions around the world who, while born into Catholic homes in the years following Vatican II and attending Catholic schools were never educated about the faith.
They didn’t storm out of Mass. They just drifted away. They didn’t see liturgical abuse. They just saw irrelevance in terms of their own lives. I know because I was one of them.
I attend the SSPX Mass. The vast majority of my contemporaries in once Catholic Ireland attend no Mass at all.
Does anyone believe the NO will ever win back these souls? Not when its best people praise it in such terms as “My parish isn’t too bad” or “We have got rid of a lot of the abuses”
Two questions.
1. Can one of you explain what in an abuse free NO Mass is an improvement on the traditional Mass.
2. If you expect loyalty from someone in your life do you think it is better that they tell you when you have made a mistake or quietly hope that someday you figure it out by yourself.
+J.M.J+
>>>The words of the Priest at communion are “Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi custodiat animam tuam in vitam aeternam. Amen” We don’t respond amen because our assent is not required to make the species into the Body and Blood of Christ.
The laity’s “Amen” in the current rite is a personal statement of belief that the Eucharist already is Christ. It does not cause transubstantiation.
In Jesu et Maria,
Curiously, at least three candidates wanted to be freed from Demon Procrastination, so I wondered if the RCIA director had suggested it as a Sample Vice that could penned into the “vice” blank.
Perhaps they were just University students.
Regarding the temptation to Rad-Trad-ism:
Beware the Dark Side. Once you step down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.
>>>The words of the Priest at communion are “Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi custodiat animam tuam in vitam aeternam. Amen” We don’t respond amen because our assent is not required to make the species into the Body and Blood of Christ.
>>The laity’s “Amen” in the current rite is a personal statement of belief that the Eucharist already is Christ. It does not cause transubstantiation.<< Rosemarie, that's the whole point, isn't it? why is our personal statement of belief necessary when 1) the priest has already, in the person of Christ and on behalf of the people, done this, and 2) you have come to the rail, knelt down, and presented yourself to receive Him, as though that isn't a personal statement of faith in and of itself? that is one of the most serious problems with the novus ordo-- it's all about US.
Just this past Saturday evening I went to my local parish (I was scheduled as EMHC which is not what they call it in my diocese, and I still do feel honored to do this and feel joy to give our Lord to people, even though I see that there might be better ways to do this.) Afterwards there was a wine and cheese and other good stuff opportunity to socialize, which we have once a month. I was trying to explain to someone why I mostly go to the Eastern Rite now, explaining that I like things “more ceremonial.” Now these very nice people think that “conservatives” who like things “more ceremonial” are all mean and nasty, but they don’t think I am mean and nasty, so they are perplexed. The woman asked me why some people turn away and refuse to hold hands. She obviously felt hurt that someone had done this to her at that mass. After all, isn’t that what we are all about, love and community? I tried to explain to her that some people want to focus on God at that point, that they find it distracting. She looked puzzled and repeated, but God wants us to love each other, so expressing community is focusing on God, I think, she said. I pointed out to her that my husband’s Episcopalian parish kneels to say the Our Father, and yet they are quite a close, loving congregation, always greet me warmly when I visit there; that community can exist without that particular manifestation of it. She agreed with that, and then said…but since this is what we do here…why refuse…it seems so unfriendly, so stubborn, as if you don’t like the other people or want to touch them. I begged her not to take it that way, as I knew people who didn’t like hand holding, and that was not why they felt that way.
So I beg those of you who don’t like hand holding, when you find yourself in a parish that does it, try to go along with it rather than hurt people who don’t understand your position on it. Unless this violates your conscience, then make eye contact with them, smile at them, and when you get a chance, say something like, I pray better when I put my hands together and think about God.
Personally, when I go to parishes which do this…and we do it at daily mass also…I do it as joyfully and enthusiastically as I can. I look upon it as a different style of worship, and one in which I can join with much less upset than singing some of that bad music.
I think that if the whole style of the mass changes to be more formal, chanted, mysterious, hand holding will fall by the wayside as not fitting in with the atmosphere of it. So lets work on that, rather than refusing to hold people’s hands which really does hurt their feelings sometimes. You can drop a note to the liturgy committee and the pastor explaining why you think the practice is inappropriate…but until it changes, don’t refuse. That is my two cents worth here.
Then the next day I happily went to the Byzantine Rite parish where there is no hand holding and no sign of peace either…and I don’t miss them.
Susan Peterson
“The priest did not wear a mic, and since he was talking to the altar, I couldn’t make out what he was saying so I could follow along in the missal. I didn’t have to. The choir did that for us. All we had to do was sit and watch… ummm… kneel and watch… umm… stand and watch… kneel and watch… sit and watch… The common thread was “watching”, and we really didn’t know when to sit stand and kneel (well, sort of but we discovered that our timing was off).”
Boy, its a shame that, with a missal right in front of you, you chose not to participate in the liturgy. Sure, you can’t walk into a Tridentine liturgy totally unprepared (by that I mean having never attended on, or not having attended since 1969) and find it immediately accessible, but a couple of hours reading to familiarise yourself with the liturgy and it goes smooth as silk.
I should know. The first Mass I ever attended, at the age of 27, was a TLM high mass. I managed to pray along with everyone else, no problem. Its a shame the cradle catholic couldn’t.
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I do get tired of hearing how people “can’t” participate in the Mass, when the truth is they’ve chosen not to.
Jim, off the top of my head, the reasons why I like NO are:
1) the three year Sunday lectionary cycle
2) aware of what prayers the priest is saying (and not expected to be reading a completely different set of prayers)
3) liturgical year calendar
Franklin, I’m a cradle Catholic, I took Latin, and since a kid I’d been reading my mother’s missal and pre-VII photo book of the old Mass. I’ve successfully followed along at NO Masses in a good many different languages, including Latin, and kept up with homilies in Spanish.
But the first time I went to a Tridentine Mass, it was hard to follow. Very hard. Only broadly could I even tell where we were, since the priest was so far away and quiet. People kept giving me looks when I didn’t magically know everything to do or how to make every gesture. They did not have any available missals, either. (I won’t say they were unfriendly or unwelcoming; but apparently they felt that this was like attending a seisiun — you have to attend several times and be sufficiently proficient at what’s going on before anyone will talk to you.)
I’m glad it was easy for you, but it isn’t that way for many of us. Personally, I could see why people like the old Mass, and the choir was good, but… it’s not very reverent in a big church, I think. People obviously did their own thing back in the day because they couldn’t keep up with the Mass, either. In a small church, you could actually stay with the priest and keep tabs on Mass, I’m sure. I’m sure other folks’ mileage varies, but I’m glad we’ve got the new Mass.
Michelle, Michelle….another blog post of you bitching and complaining about the Liturgical abuses but you do nothing about it….and for that reason alone you DON’T have the full right to complain. Buck up and shut up or make a move. By the way; stop equating ‘radTrads’ as schismatics, they aren’t. It is just another example of how inept, uninformed, and whiney you are.
Golly. Are all Rad Trads this charitable?
Heather, which Rad Trads are schismatics, in your view?
Is holding hands at the Our Father that common? No parish in this area that I have ever regularly attended does this, and I don’t remember seeing it much, if at all, at churches I’ve attended occasionally or on vacation. Is it a regional issue only in certain parts of the country?
I also happened to attend the RCIA Mass this past Sunday, and our pastor asked the whole congregation to raise our hands to pray over the elect. I just assumed it was part of the rite, having never attended a scrutiny Mass like this before. Is that something that was not an allowable option? Our pastor is pretty orthodox, so I just assume he knows what he’s doing.
“The priest did not wear a mic, and since he was talking to the altar, I couldn’t make out what he was saying so I could follow along in the missal. I didn’t have to. The choir did that for us. All we had to do was sit and watch… ummm… kneel and watch… umm… stand and watch… kneel and watch… sit and watch… The common thread was “watching”, and we really didn’t know when to sit stand and kneel (well, sort of but we discovered that our timing was off).”
The first TLM I attended I was angry because I could not hear and did not know everything that was occurring. I have learned a lot since then, and have even served at Low Mass, but it takes some work. I remember having a discussion with my father, whose life has straddled the change, about the differences between the new and old liturgies. He expressed that he prefers the NO because it is easier. Paraphrasing, he can just sit and relax and not expend any effort.
Michelle,
There is a third option. Attend an Eastern Catholic Church. The Liturgy is NEVER banal. The ONLY abuses I have seen are “Latinizations” that is forms of worship or devotions that have crept in from the Roman Church, which should have only stayed in the Roman Church according to John Paul II in Lumen Orientalem.
At an Eastern Catholic Church you will only get orthodoxy and beautiful worship!
I believe that Jim Roche is my long lost cousin!
🙂
Michelle, did you remember to bow when you prayed the creed? It still tells us to in my missalette.
Does anybody besides me still do this? (Of course, when you’re bowing it’s hard to see if anybody else is bowing…)
Do tell, what parish in San Diego do you belong to? 🙂
“One of the pitfalls of becoming a Catholic educated in the faith is that occasions for outrage rise exponentially.” — Michelle Arnold
Yeah, and I imagine that there is a pretty high correlation between that so-called and self-taught education that you speak of and the proclivity–amongst the particularly arrogant, that is–to start sentences with the words, “When I was a ‘baby Catholic’…”, or when otherwise rambling on about “surviving” a Mass in which you not only glanced upon “the body, blood, soul and Divinity of Our Risen Lord,” but, presumably, actually had the honor and privilege of receiving Our Lord into your own body.
Tell me again, Michelle, and all things considered, what a burden it was for you to assist or to otherwise participate in this particular Mass. (God knows, you barely “survived, right?) By all means, and as per your promise, please use the word “acid” is your next and much anticipated blog and when speaking of an otherwise valid, licit Mass.
The Mass — no matter what rite — is supposed to be a foretaste of Heaven. Are we supposed to be silent when it’s more like Purgatory? No. And so Michelle is doing something about it. She is a writer, so she is writing.
I agree that it’s easy for us to get upset about what we don’t like. But it’s also easy for us to forget that Jesus’ coming in the Eucharist is not supposed to be ignored in favor of turning the congregation into playtoys for liturgists.
The rubrics are not the congregation’s job to oversee. We shouldn’t have to have any problems finding a Mass that follows them. We should be able to walk into any Catholic church in the world and find that. At minimum. But we don’t.
If a McDonald’s franchise broke one-tenth the rules, that Mickey D’s would have Corporate on its head like a ton of bricks. Not because Corporate is mean, but because McDonald’s sells consistency. There is local diversity of menu, but practices are the same, training is the same, standards are the same. Everywhere. Why is a modicum of consistency too hard for us, then?
My Lord can come to me from the mouth of a dead dog, yes. But I think it’s not too much to wish for a less canine and cadaverous Mass than what too many folks get.
“Michelle, did you remember to bow when you prayed the creed? It still tells us to in my missalette.
Does anybody besides me still do this? (Of course, when you’re bowing it’s hard to see if anybody else is bowing…)”
Do you mean during the part where we say “By the power of the Holy Spirit he came down from heaven…”? I bow, as I think most of my parish does.
Interesting fact – during Beethoven’s Missa Solemnis at this point the singer who sings the Credo repeats the word “et…et…” (and…and) as though he is so awed by the fact that God became man that he can’t continue singing.
Anyway, I sometimes feel lucky to live in NJ where there’s several parishes within a 20 minute radius to choose from, including a few Eastern Catholic parishes and one that offers the Latin mass. When I’m away at school in a relatively non-Catholic area I feel even more blessed to have a great parish.
Still, even though I sometimes feel this way, the most important thing as other people have pointed out is the Eucharist. During communion I try (and usually tend) to forget wherever I am.
Sorry, that should be: “By the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary and…” *bow*
+J.M.J+
that’s the whole point, isn’t it? why is our personal statement of belief necessary when 1) the priest has already, in the person of Christ and on behalf of the people, done this, and 2) you have come to the rail, knelt down, and presented yourself to receive Him, as though that isn’t a personal statement of faith in and of itself?
I’m not arguing for or against the Tridentine or Pauline Masses, or saying one is better than another. I actually attend both and like them both.
I’m only correcting the idea that our “Amen” is somehow “required” in the Pauline Mass to make the species into the Body and Blood of Christ. This is what your post implied, but it is mistaken.
If you want to argue that our “Amen” is unnecessary for the reasons you stated, that’s fine. I just couldn’t allow a mistaken notion to go uncorrected, that’s all.
Michelle, did you remember to bow when you prayed the creed? It still tells us to in my missalette.
Does anybody besides me still do this?
I do, and my pastor reminds everyone to do so during each (Pauline rite) Mass he celebrates. I don’t know how successful he is, but he’s trying and I’m glad he is.
In Jesu et Maria,
Nearly all of you sound sad and angry. Faith Hope and Charity?
Dear Michelle,
Have you ever been to the cloistered Carmelite monastery (on the north end of Hawley Boulevard, San Diego) for their Sunday 4 P.M. Mass?
.
“Have you ever been to the cloistered Carmelite monastery (on the north end of Hawley Boulevard, San Diego) for their Sunday 4 P.M. Mass?”
No, Father, but I’ve heard good things about that monastery from Catholic Answers’ chaplain. He celebrates daily Mass for them on Mondays and has been very impressed with them. I’ll have to look into going to the Mass you mention sometime. 🙂
BTW, for those in the San Diego area, Fr. Stephanos’ own monastery Prince of Peace Abbey in Oceanside also offers reverent liturgies that the public may attend. The site says that Masses are 11 AM, Monday thru Saturday, and 10:30 AM on Sunday.
I bow, at the “incarnatus” when in one or the other of the Western Rites.(it is not a tradition in the Byzantine Rite) I have always done so since I was taught to as an Anglican by the very high church fellow who catechized me. When they were explaining this new change my daughter whispered to me…but you always do that…I never knew why.
No one said a word about my comments about hand holding.
Susan Peterson
Susan, re your comments on handholding: While I realize the potential for hurt and misunderstanding by those whose hands are rebuffed, I don’t think that is a reason to hold hands. Instead it becomes an argument for encouraging pastors to put a halt to the practice.
I will only hold hands if the person who reaches for my hand is a child. With everyone else, I keep my head down and hands clasped in front of me. Then, at the sign of peace, to demonstrate that I’m not rejecting anyone personally (just the handholding) I will usually offer the peace to everyone nearby — even though, technically speaking, it really should only be offered to just one person.
Interesting, which RadTrad in schism? None. Not counting “Old Catholics” who are Catholics….
Charitable? Perhaps I was PMSing when I wrote my post but I will stand by it because I believe that Michelle’s blog is truly full of complaints that she does nothing about. Is it charity to just pat her on the shoulder and say “there, there Michelle”….or light a fire under her *ss and make her DO something?!
Her survival to get through the Mass, though some rubics may (or may have been) abused; she still attends this church….leave, stop being in this supposed survival mode and go find a church where you don’t feel battle weary.
The “RadTrads” actually have it right they see the abuses and instead of writing blogs and whinying they did something about it, they left never to return to THAT chapel and went where Our Lord in venerated, worshipped and adored, and most if not all the rubics are ‘intact’.
oops, meant to say about Old Catholics…who “aren’t” Catholic…I had an opportunity to preview and blew it, sorry
The question asked here is one I and my family have struggled with for 20+ years. My answer is that the b******s haven’t driven me to the SSPX….yet. Currently we drive 70 miles to Mass every Sunday. We started attending Mass in another diocese 8 years ago. The final straw was when the deacon at our semi-local parish (we stopped attending the local parish after being denounced from the pulpit for our selfinsness in having so many children) literally pulled our daughter to her feet for communion, after we had made arrangements with the pastor that she ( and all of us) could recieve kneeling. Add to that the day I discovered our kids playing “Name That Heresy” at Mass, well, it was obviously time for a change. Now we are in a place we can worship God from, without the craziness of our old Diocese. As an added advantage, there’s no hand-holding during the Our Father and our parish has a local tradition (approved by the bishop) of no handshaking at the “kiss of peace.
That sounds pretty bad, Danby. I guess I should be thankful that I’m at a great parish.
With respect, you cannot go to one TLM and issue the comments you made–not if you want to be fair. It takes time to acquaint oneself (or reacquaint) to a rite in a different language with different modes of participation. Your posts amounts to saying, in essence, “that Mass was different than the one I’m used to so I don’t like it.
Tim, you’d be right if that were the case. And when I was a boy, I served the Latin mass, and actually began discerning a vocation to the priesthood, until Vatican II.
They took my mass, and even at 8 years old, left me bitter. I wandered almost 40 years in the desert of my anger, sadness and then apathy. About 6 years ago, I felt the spirit of God once again move within me. And this wasn’t because of attendance at a reverent liturgy, but dispite atendance at a “faith community” with great entertainment and lots of lay “participation”. As an example of the abuses, the “liturgy committee” decided one year to use home made altar bread for communion on Holy Thursday. The first year they followed the recipe exactly and discovered that the bread was pretty much tasteless. That was the last year we received Jesus in the Eucharist at Holy Thursday mass, because the next year, the bread in the little “bread baskets” were made with honey.
I love the Latin mass, but not enough to abandon my current parish to the whims of modernism. I revere the Blessed Sacrament enough to fight for a sense of reverence, and luckily, my new pastor bring that to the “table” (excuse the pun :))
A problem I have with RadTrads™, is the attitude I see with them (and the attitude defines the RadTrad). They have a very vocal disdain for the Novus Ordo Missae. They many times have a non-vocal disdain for our Holy Father and the living magesterium of the Catholic Church who foisted this snafu called Vatican II on them. They are the quintessiential experts on what music is appropriate, what instruments are appropriate, what postures are appropriate regardless of what the Vatican and our local ordinaries have told us. Rather than using their knowledge of tradition and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to help reform the mass at their “trendy corner parish”, they retreat like some exclusive club to the local indult (if one is available) or watch wistfully on EWTN (if there isn’t).
Again, I want to reiterate that this describes RadTrads™, and there are many faithful, humble Catholics with a traditionalist bent who enjoy the parish that celebrates the Latin mass. You can identify them by what they do if the Latin mass is eliminated in their parish. They obey their Bishop, and they bring reverence to the new mass setting by their participation and their example. They are shining beacons showing all of us what the mass can be.
RadTrads&trade carp, moan, complain, possibly protest and eventually bail.
We need people who hold the burning embers of the past in their censers and blow on them occasionally to keep them warm waiting for the day when it will burst into the flames of authentic renewal of our sacred liturgy.
We need a Catholic (universal) church. Not a divided church.
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I do get tired of hearing how people “can’t” participate in the Mass, when the truth is they’ve chosen not to.
No need to apologize, I get this sort of judgementalism from most traditionlists I meet.
Fact is, as a trained choir member and cantor for 15 years (not a steady diet of Haugen and Haas), I’m quite accomplished at following along in Latin. The priest, in this case, didn’t see a need to make himself heard to his congregation.
Just figured I’d chime in with the “letter of the liturgical law” to clear up any confusion about the Rite of Peace.
The Rite of Peace may optionally include an invitation for all to exchange a sign of peace:
“Afterwards, when appropriate, the priest adds, Offerte vobis pacem (Let us offer each other the sign of peace).” (Missale Romanum, Institutio Generalis, aka GIRM, 154)
The sign of peace can be offered to more than one person (“those who are nearest” is a plural construct) with the following qualifiers:
“It is appropriate “that each one give the sign of peace only to those who are nearest and in a sober manner”. “The Priest may give the sign of peace to the ministers but always remains within the sanctuary, so as not to disturb the celebration. He does likewise if for a just reason he wishes to extend the sign of peace to some few of the faithful”. “As regards the sign to be exchanged, the manner is to be established by the Conference of Bishops in accordance with the dispositions and customs of the people”, and their acts are subject to the recognitio of the Apostolic See.” (Redemptionis Sacramentum, 72, quoting GIRM, 82, 154)
The USCCB has made an approved adaptation that allows the priest to leave the sanctuary for the sign of peace in some circumstances:
“In the dioceses of the United States of America, for a good reason, on special occasions (for example, in the case of a funeral, a wedding, or when civic leaders are present) the priest may offer the sign of peace to a few of the faithful near the sanctuary.” (GIRM, 154)
[i]If all of the orthodox leave the parish to join their own exclaves, there will be nobody left to pray, help and work with the utmost caritas, gently guiding our brothers and sisters and showing them the benefits of respect and reverence at mass.[/i]
Excellent point. But I think it comes down to the parish priest.
Ours is very liberal and has worked to systematically exclude more orthodox members. He listens to none of our concerns, and when we volunteer for ministries, we never get called.
My dh just got ‘pushed out’ of RCIA (very subtly) because he had a tendency to say, “Well, let’s see what the Church says in the catechism” rather than “Oh, I think….” He now works as a sponsor, helping one convert at a time, rather than be constantly angry about the battles with the liberal establishment at our church.
Orthodox Catholics sometimes don’t leave for exclaves. Sometimes they are pushed out. We’re holding on by our teeth.
That’s true. When I was a recent convert and wet-eared catechist, I was once told by the DRE of the parish that the Pope had no business writing Humanae Vitae, because he was a celibate male, who scouldn’t understand what it was like to be a woman in today’s world, blah, blah, blah…
This was the woman supervising my work as a catechist!
Going to the priest would have done no good at all, since it had become apparent in my confessions that he did not take Church teaching on sin seriously. There was a reason this woman was his DRE… they were absolutely of a piece in how they viewed the faith.
Needless to say, I grew disheartened and left, which probably didn’t disappoint either of them in the least. My family ended up at another area parish that was a bit more orthodox, where we remain. It doesn’t fulfill my every wish in a parish, but its ours, and we’re sticking with it.
Here’s a link regarding the “holding hands” issue from the Catholic Culture web site. I’m not very good at html tags so I’m just copying and pasting here. Forgive the newbie!
http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1175
For what it’s worth, I’ve recently come back to the Church after a many, many year absence. The church I grew up in (Sacred Heart, Bradford, MA) was, from my recollection, very traditional. Ironically, the church I know attend in Indianapolis is also called Sacred Heart. One of the things I was so looking forward to was the familiarity of the Mass. I missed it. The “ritual” of mass comforts me.
Anyway, you can imagine my surprise when someone reached out and tried to hold my hand during the Our Father. I looked up and there’s the priest holding hands with the altar girl (that’s a whole ‘nother can of worms), the song leader, the liturgy reader, and some of the eucharistic ministers. It just doesn’t feel right. I simply bowed my head, closed my eyes, and prayed the Our Father aloud with the congregation. I know they’re probably thinking, “Hey, look at the new guy…doesn’t he know we hold hands?” Well, no offense, but I don’t. Didn’t do it then, not gonna do it now. Guess I’m just a 39 year old stick in the mud.
One more article reagrding holding hands during the Our Father.
http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=44754
OOOOOOH ya reverts, converts, rad trad, heretics, schismatic, novus ordinarians, sedevacantists, infidels, apostates,traditionalists, indults, SSPXer’s, Orthodox Heterodox, independants,Palmerians, yup the list go’s on and on and on and on. I converted to the Catholic Christians faith coming from an Anglican/Baptist backgroung when it was JUST the Mass in this case the normative was the Tridentine liturgy universally. And along comes the un-necessary meeting of minds call Vatican 2 and wham totally new mass and all of a sudden I feel like I’m back in an Anglican/Baptist church .There is more hatred today (2006) amoung Catholics that there is between Jews & muslims. Doesn’t anyone see a Satanic hand in all this????????????? Shalom/Pacem
AND HERE WE GO AGAIN, Reverts, converts, rad trads, Orthodox, Heterodox,heretics, infidels, indults novus ordinarians,palmerians, sedevacantists SSPX, indult, independant,schismatics and the sweet list go’s on and on and on and on.I converted to Catholic Christianity from an Anglican/Baptist background when the Mass was simply the Mass aka The Tridentine Liturgy. Along comes an un-necessary meeting of minds called vatican 2 and a dummying down of the Catholic religion. The end result is more hatred amoung the varied factions of Catholic Christendom than exists between Jews and muslims.Has anyone stopped to contemplate the author of this confusion in the Worldwide Catholic communion, does the word Satan ring a bell with any of you folks????????????????????????? Shalom Pacem
As I read comments of other contributors in this blog I realized just how demeaning the phrase trad rad/rad trad or whatever the hell the Novus Ordo Secularum aka post vatican two pauline catholics use to denigrate Orthodox aka Traditional latin rite Catholics. If more “Orthodox/conservative Catholics would get up and walk out of their novus ordo secularum masses/parishes and attend the Classic Latin rite masses that are so infregently permitted by semi-apostate clerics like tod brown, roger mahoney retired presbyter weakland, chief poo bah’s lustiger, daneel, ricard and the rest of the revisionist clerics in the Latin rite of the Catholic church then they are showing that the majority of long suffering conservative Catholics “that amount to tens of millions worldwide” “ain’t” takin this crap anymore.HOPE U FOLKS LIKED ALL THE LABELS MAYBEy INTEGRIST, RAD TRADS AND OTHER LABELS WILL SHOW THE STUPIDITY OF LABELLING FOLKS THAT DON’T TOW THE bugnini/paul 6 PARTY LINE Shalom/Pacem/Pax—-John
John, I don’t know if you realize this, but with your incoherent, hateful rambling you do far more to destroy the reputation of “rad-trads” than any blogger could.
Ending your screed with the word “peace” in three languages is truly comical.
Your posts are a self-parody, and consistently serve to remind everyone who reads them of the sanity and reasonableness of the Conciliar Church. For that, we all owe you thanks.
Peace in Christ.
Tim J,
That’s a different John.