A reader writes:
I’ve really been enjoying your blog for the past
couple of months. I also recently got a used copy of
your book The Salvation Controversy from amazon.com,
and was happy to discover that it was autographed in
the front. The autograph is apparently from the
"James" years, so I wonder if it will be a limited
edition collectors’ item someday. 😉
Maybe. I was foolish enough for a few years to avoid my legal birthname–Jimmy–in quest of the "more dignified" James (during which time I also suppressed the native Southern elements of my speech), but I don’t know that it’ll have any economic impact on the value of my writings. Such foolishness can be part of growing up, but I don’ t know that it’ll make the stuff I write any more valuable. Maybe you could get an extra nickle. 😉
I’m writing you because I have a question, but let me
first give you a brief background. I am a (former
Methodist, current Southern Baptist) student who will
soon be graduating with a Master of Music degree from
a Baptist seminary, and (get this), largely because of
my studies at seminary, I do believe I may be on the
way to becoming a Catholic!
Congratulations!
I’ve been doing a lot of
research (much of it on the Catholic Answers website),
and I’m thinking that next fall I’ll probably start
RCIA. It’s kind of scary, but I’m definitely feeling
the pull in this direction.My question is this, and on one level it’s kind of
silly.
Okay, but I don’t view there as being silly questions, only silly answers.
I’ve never been much of a kneeler, mainly
because it hurts if I do it for very long. I go to
mass a lot with my mother (who converted to
Catholicism three years ago), and sometimes I try to
kneel some (they do have kneelers, and no one else
seems to have much trouble with this except maybe an
older lady here or there who stays seated). But I
knelt for some of the Good Friday service the other
day, and I’ve hardly been able to walk all day today!
This happened once before too, though on that
occassion I intentionally stayed kneeling even though
I was in pain during a mass (I guess what I thought
was a Catholic notion of self-mortification or
something-I’m all new at this).What I’ve run across on the Catholic Answers website
seems to indicate that during certain portions of the
mass, the faithful are supposed to kneel unless health
reasons indicate otherwise. I suppose this is some
kind of health reason, though I’ve never actually been
diagnosed with anything. (My mom has suggested that I
may be getting arthritis, which is of course always
welcome news at my young age!)Do cradle Catholics build up
more knee strength over the years?
That’s an interesting question, and the only thing I can say is, "perhaps." I don’t think it takes years, though. Once you start using your muscles in a new way, they build up pretty quickly. I’d think that any added knee strength from kneeling would be built up in a matter of weeks, not years.
Does anyone else
have this problem?
Oh, sure. Lotsa folks have knee problems or back problems or what have you. I myself have a back problem and can’t always kneel. (Incidentally, you don’t need a diagnosis for a medical condition to be excused from kneeling, you just need the medical condition.)
If I do become Catholic, will
people think I’m some sort of unpious wimp because I’m
not kneeling?
No. Like I said, lotsa folks are unable to kneel–either temporarily or permanently–and just staying in your seat won’t really attract attention. When I’ve been unable to kneel, I’ve never had anybody wrinkle their nose at me (and I’m usually totally anonymous in church, so it’s not like I get any deference for being an apologist or having a blog or anything).
Besides, if anybody did wrinkle their nose at me for not kneeling, all that would mean is that they’re paying attention to me instead of to the Mass, so I could wrinkle my nose right back at them.
Are you supposed to feel pain when you
kneel?
A little discomfort, maybe, but actual pain, no–certainly not anything that make it hard for you to walk afterwards. That goes beyond pain to doing some kind of actual damage to the body, and that isn’t the goal of kneeling. If you’re having anything like that then you are unambiguously excused from kneeling.
I wouldn’t worry about the issue of kneeling. If you find it too difficult to do–temporarily or permanently–then you are excused from the requirement, and people will not notice or care if you just sit. Even if they did, the important thing is being in union with Christ’s Church and receiving Jesus in the Eucharist. That’s where one’s focus should be.
Thank you so much for all you do. It is obvious from
hearing you on the radio and reading your writings
that you both really understand the Catholic faith and
have a heart for people.
Thanks. You are too kind.
Moving from matters of the spirit to those of the flesh, maybe you should mention this to your doctor. You may have a problem that is medical in nature and might be progressive. A doctor might help you slow its progress, or even stop or reverse it.
Good advice from Jimmy.
Do what you reasonably can to eliminate or reduce your pain. I take ibuprofen for occasional pain in knees and back.
If the pain is not unbearable, and you are able to kneal, then it means you are sacrificing something in order to do so, and you can offer that to God.
Ask that your suffering be added to Christ’s suffering on the cross, in reparation for your sins, and those of the whole world, especially the sin of sacrilege committed against the Body of Christ in the Eucharist.
Kneeling for five minutes doesn’t hurt healthy people. If it does hurt, one needs to see a doctor, not merely dispense oneself from kneeling.
PVO
There are days when I am unable to kneel for any length. I just try to sit forward a bit so the person behind me can kneel comfortably and doesn’t have to eat my hair. Happy Easter!
I’m in my 20’s and in quite good shape (some combination of weightlifting and biking 6 days a week, eating right, etc.) and I tend to be quite sore after extended periods of kneeling. Indeed, I went to adoration on Good Friday and was kneeling throughout that, and my lower back was very sore the next day. So if the pain only comes from lengthy kneeling, it might not be something to worry about too much.
I gather from the letter, though, that it’s a result of the brief periods of kneeling that go on during a normal mass, in which case it seems important to see a doctor about the situation. If, on the one hand, the pain is not related to anything serious (arthritis, etc.) and is not a sign of excessive bodily wear and tear caused by the kneeling, then perhaps it can be appropriately looked at as a form of mortification.
On the other hand, if more serious/long-term problems are involved, then there is certainly no need to kneel. This is especially so if the pain is impeding your ability to function at your job or what have you, or if it is distracting you from being able to focus at mass. As Jimmy pointed out, the important thing is being focused on God’s love in the Eucharist which is the focal point of the mass.
Depending on the seating arrangements at your church, you might be able to get in a position where you are kneeling (i.e. your knees are on the kneeler) but you are still half-seated on the pew/chair. This would take some of the pressure off of your knees and might make it easier to kneel for brief periods of time.
One of my friends was brought up Latin Rite (the ‘ordinary Catholics’ you’re familiar with) and a few years ago transferred to the Byzantine Rite (where they stand instead of kneeling). He says he used to be able to kneel for hours if necessary, but couldn’t stand for very long, and now he can stand for practically forever [3 hours plus for the Easter liturgy] but now if he kneels he’s in agony. So for at least one example, it’s all about practice!
But the real point, as many others have made, is that nobody should give you a hard time for not kneeling if you can’t!
I thank God for your faith and wish you well in your investigation of the Catholic faith! God bless!
“‘If I do become Catholic, will people think I’m some sort of unpious wimp because I’m not kneeling?’
No”
Well, if you thought of it others will, and since many people remain malicious at all times, some will even imagine other faults (whatever their pet enemy of the day is). I think Jimmy is right for those (He?) whose opinion should matter, as Socrates might say.
Not necessarily. Just because one is worried about others thinking that about oneself doesn’t mean that one would think it of others.
I suggest sitting forward at the front edge of the pew so that you are in a genuflective position without actually resting on your knees. This also is considerate of the person kneeling behind you.
This is the way I “kneel” when I’m holding my baby in my arms and actual kneeling would place my body right against the back of the pew in front of me, with no room for him. (It’s also the way I “knelt” when very pregnant, for the same reason 🙂
The author of the email here….
Thanks everyone for the suggestions. Just so you know, this was maybe three minutes kneeling at the Good Friday service and, well, I’m still hurting, four days later! The odd thing was that it didn’t hurt at the time. I was at a different church than I normally attend and its kneelers seemed to be more “comfy,” so I thought it was OK. I guess I thought wrong!
I have done some of the more creative pseudo-kneeling postures mentioned here, and I guess I’ll probably go back to something like that.
Thanks again!
+JMJ
The first time I ever did any significant kneeling is when I went to the local Greek Orthodox Church a little over a year ago. We were kneeling on tile, albeit for very short periods of time, but it was killing me. I experienced the same even on the padded kneelers in the Catholic Church I began attending. I figured it was the same cartilage problems I’d developed (or discovered) from running cross country. Luckily, after a couple of months of suffering through it, I got very used to kneeling, and it’s only rarely now that I experience any pain. I would give it time before going to a doctor.
I find it difficult to properly kneel right now, because of pregnancy. I do what my hubby calls the “bum kneel” — knees on kneeler, backside resting on the pew. Works for me.:-)
I’m too tall (6’3″) to ‘fit’ in most pews. When kneeling, I hit the legs behind me with my feet. Usually, I kneel on my shins which causes back strain. In older churches, like St. Mary’s in Annapolis, my feet stick not only touch the legs of the people behind me, but stick through their legs. There, I cannot kneel at all.
When I became Catholic several years ago, I found kneeling excruciatingly painful at first. But with practice, my back muscles became stronger. It still hurts to kneel on bare floors, though.
I found that if I made sure that I’m not arching my back at all then it makes it easier on my back. Tighen your stomach and push your hips forward justa little bit. It’s allll about angles.
Another weird thing: I kneel without the kneelers, at first simply to be a “tough guy”, but then I found that if I kneel with the kneelers, my knees and back hurt. It throws off my angles!
Like I said, it’s alllll about angles.
As a child we used to pray the daily Rosary at home, while kneeling on a wooden floor. Nowadays, it just hurts my knee too much if I don’t use cushioned kneelers.
But come to think of it, we don’t really kneel all that long in Mass do we? Perhaps a total of 2 minutes, not counting the private kneel after communion?
I often kneel with my rearend perched on the seat. If I’m serving that Mass, I usually end up kneeling directly on the floor (there’s not enough kneelers for the servers), but that’s not for much longer than the Canon after the Sanctus to the Our Father. Uncomfortable, yes, but I offer it up. It’s about all I can do, really.
As to standing, well, I served at Maundy Thursday, Good Friday (we stood during the entire chanting of the Gospel) and Holy Saturday (stood during Exsultet, Gospel, baptism/confirmations, etc etc. Fr. told me later I could have sat if I really needed to, but I felt I should be an example to the children (I was the only adult serving).
I wonder if sitting if one can’t kneel is really the best posture. It seems that this is recommended so someone will appear to be kneeling. And as some have noted, who cares what others think…others ought to be paying attention to their prayer. Wouldn’t standing be a more appropriate posture since kneeling is done as a sign of reverence in prayer, and standing is the other posture usually used for reverence (e.g., at the Gospel) or prayer (e.g., at the Our Father)?
Obviously, if I couldn’t kneel I wouldn’t sit in the middle of a bank of pews, I’d get at the end of a row or of a section so as not to be standing directly in someone’s line of sight of the altar.
This seems more in accord with the GIRM as well, which says that if someone is not kneeling during the Eucharistic prayer, they should bow deeply when the priest makes his genuflections at the consecration.
And I have to agree with several commenters to this questioner…this sounds like a medical condition that ought to be looked at. I am pretty darn heavy, and while I’m usually footsore, I don’t have any problem kneeling. Except that sometimes pews are so close together, or have so great an angle from seat to back, that using a kneeler is a tight squeeze…in which case I usually kneel directly on the floor.
I would agree to see a doctor.
I can’t help but think, though it is not as big a threat outside the Northeast, that this could stem not just from knee problems but from lyme disease. You can get it even if (actually especially if) you never realized you got a tick, and you may not have even gotten the rash.
One of the long term effects of lyme disease is arthritis in the major joints. It could also eventually cause damage to your internal organs and nervous system.
Probably it isn’t lyme disease, but it would encourage me all the more to go to the doctor.
After becoming Catholic 7 years ago, I took a couple of months to become accustomed to kneeling. My knees kind of flattened in shape a little and it all became more comfortable. I now find it more comfortable to kneel on a wooden floor sometimes than sit on a small chair (I’m a schoolteacher with past back problems), so there is hope JH, but a trip to the doctor might be best if you have concerns.
During the consecration, kneeling is required if you are able to, even if it causes pain or discomfort. After the Sanctus, kneeling is required in the U.S. unless the Bishop says otherwise (if you are able to kneel).
From what you said –being unable to walk easily after kneeling — it appears that you may have limited flexability. I’m not a doctor, you may find that if you start kneeling regularily for a few months (by going to daily Mass, or just stretching otherwise) that you’ll become more flexable there and more able to kneel. Perhaps you could talk to your doctor at your next physical.
Another solution is that there are a number of Catholic rites. You can be Catholic and attend an Eastern-Rite Mass. Except during Lent, Eastern-Rite Catholics do not kneel. Thus, if you attend an Eastern-Rite Mass, you’d not be required to kneel most of the time.
Your other option, if kneeling is painful and you don’t want to kneel is to write the Holy Sea and request an exception to the requirement of kneeling during the consecration. You can also write your Bishop and request an exception from kneeling after the Sanctus. Not sure what your bishop or the Holy Sea will say, but you may always ask.
Another option is that you can buy knee pads (and wear under your pants), that may slightly help.
My suggestion is to continue kneeling and not worry about it. It is VERY COMMON to have pain for the first few months; it will go away most likely.
“My suggestion is to continue kneeling and not worry about it. It is VERY COMMON to have pain for the first few months; it will go away most likely.”
Is it VERY COMMON to still have substantial knee pain A WEEK LATER, after four minutes of kneeling? To the point that I’m thinking, “Well, I ought to go to the store, but that’s going to make my knees hurt even more…”
Honestly, this really is the kind of thing that turns a lot of Protestants off Catholicism. I don’t quite understand it. I don’t go for the health and wealth gospel thing, but I don’t quite see how “Thou shalt kneel during mass, even if it rips thy joints to shreds” comes into it.
Please forgive me for the tone of this comment; it’s just that this has been a rather frustrating experience.
I have some severe joint problems and know just where you’re coming from. Most Masses I attend I either sit forward or do the pseudo-kneel, bum-on-the-pew thing. No, no-one will look askance at you if you can’t kneel. No, DON’T STAND UP at the parts where you’re directed to kneel. That is just drawing attention to yourself at a time when your fellow worshipers are trying to prepare themselves for the Eucharist.. One thing that I have found that helps me, and may help you, is to forego the kneeler. If it is too soft it can put pressure on the ACL below the kneecap. This can lead to a lot of pain if that is where the problem lies. Kneeling on the bare floor instead can be painful, but only to the surface tissues, and won’t leave you lame (if that is indeed the problem.)
BTW, no you don’t need a bishop’s permission, nor the Vatican’s to forego kneeling. Just as pregnant women and diabetics are not required to fast, the lame are not required to kneel, the Church doesn’t “bind up burdens to put on other men’s backs.”
Thank you, danby. Everything you said makes a lot of sense.
An aside – very late, I’m afraid – that maybe you should kneel on your shins, and not on your knees. This has helped me, especially when I had an injury.
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Jimmy,
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First of all, my sympathies on your physical condition, and I hope that you will consult your doctor in order to rule out any physical problem or to obtain appropriate treatment, as the case may be.
I wish to emphasize that kneeling is no way indicative of a person’s sincerity. That is a matter of the heart and the mind, and only God knows that. If anyone comments adversely on your failure/inability to kneel, or gives you any awkward looks, it is they, not you, who are acting inappropriately. If you are unable to kneel, then I suggest that you stand or sit, as may be appropriate for the particular part of the Mass.
In this regard, you should be aware that, in the Byzantine Catholic church, kneeling is actively discouraged. Many of the churches do not even have kneelers. The idea is that the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is a joyous celebration. Kneeling is a sign of repentance and sadness. If you need to repent, you need to do that before you attend the Sunday divine liturgy.
If you are participating in the Divine Liturgy, you should be happy and joyous and full of praise. Why would anyone want to kneel under those circumstances?
We Byzantine Catholics are in full communion with Rome, so we are as authentically Catholic as anyone else. If kneelers are not necessary to our salvation, they are not necessary to the salvation of anyone else.
Roman Catholics, wake up, look about, and examine the diversity of the universal church. There are five principal rites of the Catholic church, and yours, the Roman Rite, is only one of them.
If you are thinking of converting to Catholicism, please investigate the Eastern rites of the Catholic church. Many of the “reforms” of the Protestant Reformation were actually borrowed from the Eastern church.
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