Author: Jimmy Akin
Jimmy was born in Texas, grew up nominally Protestant, but at age 20 experienced a profound conversion to Christ. Planning on becoming a Protestant seminary professor, he started an intensive study of the Bible. But the more he immersed himself in Scripture the more he found to support the Catholic faith, and in 1992 he entered the Catholic Church. His conversion story, "A Triumph and a Tragedy," is published in Surprised by Truth. Besides being an author, Jimmy is the Senior Apologist at Catholic Answers, a contributing editor to Catholic Answers Magazine, and a weekly guest on "Catholic Answers Live." View all posts by Jimmy Akin
This is the passage that the soldiers were talking about being opened in multiple Bibles they found…
Their corpses will lie in the main street of the great city, which has the symbolic names “Sodom” and “Egypt,” where indeed their Lord was crucified.
Those from every people, tribe, tongue, and nation will gaze on their corpses for three and a half days, and they will not allow their corpses to be buried.
That doesn’t mean this is the end times, so to speak, but that it is probably a warning to the world that God is angry.
*shivers*
Um…isn’t it possible that if people are hearing and seeing a little girl… and if they’re staying in a school… that’s there’s a real live little girl hiding there? I mean, we all know that kids have an instinct to hide after scary things. She’s probably stealing food and then sneaking back into her crawlspace or attic or whatever. I’d set me a girl trap (nonchalantly leave some cookies or water about, that sort of thing) and see what happened.
This is not to say that there aren’t such things as ghosts, as my dad was pretty sure there was one in his old frat house. But I’ve never seen one; and I’d be looking for the natural explanation first in a city full of living lost folks.
And sure, it’d be interesting to believe in fairies. But if I left out a bowl of milk and the milk was gone in the morning, I’d be thinking cats and raccoons, not Mab and the local brownie.
I’d like to point out that the passages they are talking about have absolutley nothing to do with a flood or with anything remotely similar to the situation in New Orleans. In fact, the entire book of Revelation does not once mention a flood. This passage is about the two witnesses who preached for 1,260 days until the beast kills them. So I’d say that unless I missed two men from New Orleans who preached about God for quite a while who ended up getting killed at the hands of the beast, that it’s probably not the end of the world. Could be wrong though. *shrug*
Much of Revelation is hard to understand, but I think this 1 verse is straight forward. The city is symbolically “Egypt” and “Sodom”, but then John explicitly states, “where indeed their Lord was crucified.” I’m not generally a bettin’ man, but I would put good money that St. John was referring to Jerusalem.
I have to agree with Dan. What do corpses lying around Jerusalem have to do with a hurricane in New Orleans?
Also: it would be eerie if several Bibles all opened to the same two pages, but there would be more than two verses on those pages.
It need not refer to Jerusalem. Jesus is crucified by our sins, hence a very sinful city could aptly be referred to prophetically as “The place where our Lord was crucified.” Perhaps a more mystical reading, but I don’t see why we have to be strictly literal in looking at the passage.
I don’t see why we have to be strictly literal in looking at the passage
Authentic spiritual senses are rooted in the literal sense, and the literal sense of this passage is about Jerusalem.
I dispute your premise that authentic spiritual senses are necessarily rooted in the spiritual sense. An accomodated sense can be quite spiritual and instructive. In any event, the reading in question is clearly rooted in the literal sense.
The literal sense of the passage is the place where Jesus christ was crucified.
To say that Jesus is crucified can be taken in two senses, the only a literal crucifixion, the other one rooted in the first, namely that of our sins crucifying Jesus.
Therefore to interpret the place where Jesus was crucified as a place where horrendous sins were committed against our Savior, such as New Orleans, is quite reasonable, especially in the context of an apocalyptic and mystifying book.
I don’t see why people are so resistent to the accomodated sense of things, I don’t think anyone is claiming the literal intent of the author of the Apocalypse was to predict a flood in New Orleans. Neither was it the intent of St. Paul to convert St. Augustien when he heard the famous “Tolle lege,” but that didn’t nullify the meaning of St. Paul’s words as applied to a context.
So I maintain that the inability to see a passage as referring to dead people in the place where Jesus is crucified, as being applicably to there being lots of dead people where Jesus was crucified by our sins, betrays a lack of vision, and a want of poetic vigor. Broaden our minds, ye all, the story is probably apochyrpha in the end, but the grounds it’s being critiqued on are rather flimsy.
Further, I allow me to possibly assert, with St. Augustine, the plurity of literal senses, a real Pandora’s box for our straight-laced exegetes. In any event…
I dispute your premise that authentic spiritual senses are necessarily rooted in the spiritual sense.
The latter should read “literal sense.”
And I didn’t just make this up off the top of my head, you know. It’s actual Church teaching:
Catechism of the Catholic Church 116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: “All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal,” (St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I,1,10,adI).
This disqualifies some of the more ridiculous allegorical readings of interpreters like Philo.
The literal sense of the passage is the place where Jesus christ was crucified.
Correct. And sound exegesis reveals that the passage is about Jerusalem. I can list commentaries for you if you need them.
an apocalyptic and mystifying book
Revelation does not really belong to a larger genre. Other books popularly called “apocalypses” (e.g. Daniel, Shepherd of Hermas, 1Enoch) are not basically similar.
Neither was it the intent of St. Paul to convert St. Augustien when he heard the famous “Tolle lege”
This is hardly a legitimate analogy, since the words “tolle et lege” are not even Paul’s (nor the words of any scriptural author)!
You are suggesting a tropological application to New Orleans. Fine. But if you want people to consider that plausible, please explain the parallel between the circumstances in Jerusalem and New Orleans.
Quote from the video clip:
“Yet soldiers found this, a Bible, laid open to Revelations 10, and 11”, not Rev. 10:11 or (as is being suggested) Rev. 11:10.
Just pointing that out.
The reference to Tolle Lege is to what St. Augustine did after he heard those words, namely pick up a random passage out of the Scripture and, apply it to his life. Whether the sense be literal, tropological, etc., seems immaterial. The interpretation of a Bible miraculously open would also depend on the context in which it was found, a point which seems rather obvious. If someone were just reading Revelation and wanted to apply that to New Orleans, sure, argue about exegesis. But if Bibles were actually found with the passage, then one seems licit in looking for senses other than the literal.
As for the CCC, I accept it, but not your Antiochian interpretation of it.
As for the parallel, it’s obvious. Divine punishment for a city than sinned against God. But as was pointed out, if we have the wrong passage we may be splitting the wrong hairs.
Alexandria forever,
Breier
And for those who still wonder, Jerusalem may be seen as a type for cities of the unfaithful, cities of promise and sin, and those who were called but rejected the divine calling. Probably many cities could fit that, but it seems applicable to Catholic? New Orleans as well as elsewhere. I don’t think the issue really needs to be pressed much more than that. This reminds me of debates about the original context of Isiah 7:14.
I still have to point out that none of this matters because the passage talks about two “witnesses” (probably prophets) who are killed by the beast. How many people died, two? No. Was it few (seeing as often specific small numbers simply symbolize small numbers in general and large ones large)? No, it was very many. Is Katrina the beast? I don’t think so!
All I can say is that I find “Sodom” and “Egypt” right here in my heart, where Jesus is crucified by my sins daily. A just man sins 70 times a day, who I ain’t.
Lord, have mercy on our souls.
Quote from the video clip:
“Yet soldiers found this, a Bible, laid open to Revelations 10, and 11”, not Rev. 10:11 or (as is being suggested) Rev. 11:10.
Thanks, DJ.
The reference to Tolle Lege is to what St. Augustine did after he heard those words, namely pick up a random passage out of the Scripture and, apply it to his life.
I know what St. Augustine did. But the intention of Paul doesn’t figure into Augustine’s interpretation of the non-scriptural phrase “tolle et lege,” so it was a bad analogy.
Whether the sense be literal, tropological, etc., seems immaterial.
Which sense is never immaterial.
As for the CCC, I accept it, but not your Antiochian interpretation of it.
There’s nothing Antiochian about it. I interpret at it is: All spiritual senses must be based on the literal. Without that foundation, “spiritual senses” are baseless assertions.
As for the parallel, it’s obvious. Divine punishment for a city than sinned against God.
The reasons for Jerusalem’s destruction were much deeper than “people who live(d) there sinned,” and attempted parallels must take that into account.
I still have to point out that none of this matters because the passage talks about two “witnesses” (probably prophets) who are killed by the beast.
Breier apparently doesn’t think that a “spiritual sense” has to be based on the literal sense.
Way too much is being read into this. Obviously, God wanted us to heed a warning. Simply put, he is trying (in many different ways)to warn us that our time is very short now. The passages have a basic message of how the world is about to be judged and that we should repent and turn to God.
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fantasticccc!!!!!!!!! i’m so scared.
uuuhijj
its so scary
No ofence ,but some of you dont sound like you know what your talking about. I may be 14 and kinda out of place but you just need to have a little faith. You never know what could happen.
sorry i posted the no offence one but i meant every thing i said
I DONT SEE NO GHOST ARE YOU SPECIAL BECAUSE THERE IS NO GHOST
Look in my opinion more people need to read their bibles and less on the net. If we would change our ways we wouldnt have to worry about this stuff. I dont know what to think of this but i think too it is something rational but i have had an experience myself and i believe in spirits. It is scary but ur mind kind of runs away from u. Its a touchy subject though so be nice to each other everyone has their beliefs and opinions.
there is a lot of strife in the world today and to try and find reasoning in every strange event is ludacrest,we have war,hunger,disease,fire,storms,pollution,crime and greed,all these are way out of hand,if these things were all fortold,then why have we done nothing to stop it…..