A reader writes:
Jimmy, I can’t seem to find an answer to this. I know
dreams are not sinful because you don’t have control
over them. What if you do have control over your
dreams in lucid dreams? If you think or do bad things
in lucid dreams knowing that "it is just a dream and
anything goes", is that sinful? There are times where
I have thought things in my dreams I shouldn’t and
told myself "I’m dreaming right now so there is no
sin". Of course I would never think these things
while awake, yet, I still am probably in control
enough to change what I’m thinking about so I suppose
it may be possible to sin if there is some control.
Please let me know, thanks.
If you check standard moral theologies (e.g., Henry Davis’s excellent four-volume Moral And Pastoral Theology–long out of print but available by used book services), they will point out that things that you do in dreams aren’t sinful, though it can be sinful to do things while awake in an attempt to cause dreams with sinful content.
These don’t really address the question of lucid dreaming directly, though, since they are talking about ordinary dreams.
For those not aware of the distinction, lucid dreams are those in which you are aware that you are dreaming. Sometimes people who are having a lucid dream are also able to take control of the dream and cause things to happen the way they want them to. It’s even possible to train yourself (while awake) to have lucid dreams while you sleep, though not in a reliable fashion. (I.e., it’s possible to train yourself to have lucid dreams more often, but you can’t guarantee that you’ll have one on any given night.)
Though the standard moral theologies don’t address the question of lucid dreams specifically, the basic answer holds: You are not sinning (certainly not more than venially) no matter what you do in a lucid dream.
The reason is that you still lack the use of reason and are thus incapable of committing the fully human act needed for mortal sin. You usually lack sufficient use of reason just before you fall asleep and just after you wake up–unless you are jolted back into the waking world for some reason. It normally takes your brain at least a few seconds to spool up your FTL reason drive.
The condition of a person having a lucid dream is in many respects simliar to that of a person who is drunk: Drunks thinks that they have more control than they do. That’s why they get behind the wheels of cars and go driving when in fact they are totally unsafe drivers at the moment.
They even do have a measure of control–they can drive, or try to drive, the car wherever they want. They’re just don’t have enough control to drive in a responsible manner, even though they think that they do because their reason has been impaired and it keeps them from recognizing this.
It’s the same with lucid dreamers. They feel like they are in control of their actions, and they do have a measure of control of the dream. They can drive, or try to drive, the dream wherever they want it to go. They just don’t have enough control over themselves to dream in a manner that triggers full human responsibility. They may think they do, but they don’t, because while they’re asleep their reason has been impaired, whether they recognize this or not.
Lucid dreamers, like dreamers in general, simply do not have the level of reason needed to perform fully human acts, and so they are not capable of committing mortal sin.
They may feel in control. They may even have moral-theological debates with themselves in the dream about whether it is right or wrong to undertake a particular course of action. But they lack the reason necessary for mortal sin.
Period.
So don’t worry about that.
On the other hand, don’t go training yourself to do lucid dreaming if you intend to use it as a means of engaging in sinful fantasy behavior. That would count as doing something while you’re awake to deliberately bring on sinful dream content.
Additional thoughts:
In my own personal opinion, the “choices” we make in lucid dreams, while they are not authentic human acts understaken with true freedom of will, and thus are not capable of rising to the dignity of truly moral acts, probably reflect to one degree or another something of the habitual state of our appetites.
If this is true, making the “wrong choice” in lucid dreams (i.e., choices that would be sinful if they were authentic human acts understaken with true freedom of will), though not sinful (or not more than venially sinful) in themselves, may reflect a concupiscence or disordering of our appetites, while making the “right choice” may reflect a right ordering of our appetites.
The more we indulge our concupiscent appetites while awake, therefore, the more likely we will be to have “sinful” lucid dreams; and the more we conquer our appetites and master our passions, the more likely we will be to overcome “temptation” even in our dreams — not because we will have any more control, but because even the instinctive or automatic movements of our sleeping mind will be more in conformity with what is really good for us.
I think it is helpful to instill in oneself the habit, while awake, of [i]not[/i] thinking of such choices as “not mattering” because it’s “only a dream.” From there it’s only a short step to [i]wanting[/i] to have such dreams for the sake of being able to enjoy otherwise forbidden activities, thereby fostering a disordered attachment of the will.
I don’t think one should feel [i]guilty[/i] about “wrong” choices in dreams, but I do think that one may reasonably feel [i]regret[/i], as we would any other sign of the disordering effects of sin upon our inner being. And to the extent that one feels in a lucid dream that one can “choose” to do right or wrong, one should try to “choose” not to do wrong.
Would the Matrix would fall under the category of “lucid dreams”? Entering the Martix as a conscious choice is certainly different than sleeping as a “conscious choice.” I suppose that it would be judged more as recreation than a dream state, no?
“Lucid dreams” can also be opportunities to express the longings of the heart for holiness and purity. What goes on in your dreams really has a lot to do with how you live while you are awake.
I will never forget a dream I had while in college which was basically a vision of hell as a place where all your desires would be indulged.
I have had many “lucid dreams” which I feel were demonic temptations. However, when one responds in the dream by speaking the truth, or by treating those doing the tempting with God’s love and compassion (e.g., clothing the naked, encouraging others to live a virtuous life, invoking the name of the Lord), then the dreams can actually lead to a rather refreshing, spiritually victorious awakening.
I believe the desert fathers and perhaps John Cassian talk about this.
Virtual reality would certainly qualify as a daydream, not a dream.
Virtual reality is just acting or role-playing with more realistic sets and special effects. The rights and wrongs are basically those of a game of make believe, not a dream.
Are we also saying, then, that it’s impossible to make meritorious and virtuous choices in our dreams?
I know Mr. Akin is following St. Thomas and others on this, but I’d like to know the support for saying that we lack sufficient reason in our dreams, contrary to our experience. How is that proved?
I should note that most gamers feel strongly that it is wrong to even notionally rob, rape or kill player characters in roleplaying games, unless you are in some kind of game where you’re supposed to get into firefights with each other.
Thanks to one notorious incident back in the day with a creep who hacked a text MUD so he could “rape” characters without even giving them a chance to defend themselves, I understand there are strong precautions against rape in every computer MMRPG I know of.
Generally, people feel that there’s something extremely creepy about players who enjoy this sort of thing (especially imaginary rape). Furthermore, people put a lot of work into their characters for long-term roleplaying games, and identify with them strongly; so they often feel as if these things have been done to them in reality. Robbing less powerful characters for their goods (in games that permit it) is considered lazy and lame by many. (There is also the practical reality that if you do such things, bad things will be done unto your character if you’re caught. And maybe even to you personally, if you run into someone in real life who’s still peeved.) So there’s a combination of manners and morals that comes into play.
My personal feeling is that unless I’m deliberately playing someone of dubious moral character, I’m responsible for how my character’s actions set an example to myself and those around me. I definitely am responsible for fair play and good sportsmanship in the way I play. So I try not to have my character do anything morally unjustified. (Except maybe looting monsters’ corpses. I’m not sure ‘spoiling the Egyptians’ includes looting corpses.)
I don’t see the parallel between drunks and dreamers, unless it’s supposed to be an insinuation that we’re all morally equivolent to being drunk in our dreams.
For drunk people can certainly still sin and merit. To totally obviate responsibility you have to be severely plastered so that reason is destroyed. But in this case of lucid dreams, that is manifestly not the case.
So what is the support for the premise that we lack control in our lucid dreams? That seems like an ipse dixit to me.
What about the moments when you are half-awake, but still dreaming and you lack the control to wake up fully? Especially if while in your dream you are committing a sinful act or acts? When that happens to me, my judgment of whether or not I did anything wrong gets very blurred. My better sense tells me it was only a dream but the reality of it is so sharp that I worry about it? Is this the same as “lucid dreams”?
Hi Julia, Jimmy said:
“You usually lack sufficient use of reason just before you fall asleep and just after you wake up–unless you are jolted back into the waking world for some reason.”
That seems to cover the half-and-half state.
Julia said: “My better sense tells me it was only a dream but the reality of it is so sharp that I worry about it? Is this the same as ‘lucid dreams’?”
It looks like the same thing applies, as what applies to lucid dreams.
Thanks karen!
I agree with Breier that we haven’t been shown sufficient proof to say whether or not you can make rational decisions in lucid dreams. People who have had lucid dreams sometimes say that they try to make moral choices that don’t harm dream characters, so this shows that they probably can make some sort of rational decision. Dreaming situations can also be very different from real situations,so maybe the only reason that you would make different decisions in a dream is because you are facing very different situations than you usually would. Finally I would only really consider something a sin if it targeted an actual person (including yourself). Dream people aren’t real so I wouldn’t consider anything in dreams to possibly be sinful.
To totally obviate responsibility you have to be severely plastered so that reason is destroyed.
And to drink that much is a mortal sin in itself — unless you were unaware that you were drinking, such as someone’s having spiked your drink.
Advanced MP3 Catalog
Download advanced mp3 catalog pro Advanced MP3 Catalog is designed for anyone …
This really helped. I had a dream last night where I did something that I would consider horendous when awake and have been troubled when I woke up. I am pretty sure it was a lucid dream but I can’t shake the feeling of guilt, even though I was someone else in the dream. So thank you for your blog it really helped.