A reader writes:
When a family member dies and one is unsure if they have been saved, can a living member pray for that person after they have died and possibly aid to their salvation. From what I understand there is no time table that God lives in and its possible hhe could use prayers after the person has died to use for their salvation when they die. Is there any scriptual reference to this? I sure would appreciate an answer to this.
There are two ways in which people customarily pray for the dead. The most common of these is praying for the person to have their transition into heaven smoothed in some way (i.e., that they spend less time in purgatory or have their experience of purgatory made less paiful or something). This form of prayer for the dead does not aid the person’s salvation per se, since all those who are in purgatory will go to heaven and are thus saved in that sense, but it can aid the process by which their salvation is brought to completion.
The kind of prayer that you mention is discussed a lot less but it still goes on a great deal. It’s entirely natural, when someone died, to ask God to pray for the person’s salvation. Since a person either is or is not saved (i.e., destined for heaven) at the time they die, we can’t pray that the person will be saved after they die, but we can pray that they were saved when they died.
At the time we say such prayers, their death lies in the past, and so whether this is okay depends on whether it is okay to pray for things that have happened in the past.
The answer is that it is okay (normally) and the reason is the one you identify: God is outside of time and so he can apply prayer that you say today to events that were occuring yesterday (or at any point in the past).
The only time that it is not okay to pray for something in the past is when you are praying for something that you know was not the case. For example, I could not justly pray that the September 11th, 2001 attacks never happened. I know that they did, and so I can’t pray that God stop them since I know that he didn’t (at least in my timeline).
I can pray, even today in 2005, that all those who died in the attacks were saved, and God can apply my prayers to them back in 2001, but I can’t pray that the attacks didn’t happen.
The rule is that you can pray for any event in the past as long as you don’t know that its outcome was contrary to your prayer.
If you know that then it constitutes a form of presumption to pray for the contrary, but since we don’t know the salvation of our loved ones, you can pray for that.
“…so I can’t pray that God stop them since I know that he didn’t (at least in my timeline).”
I’m just curious as to what is meant by the parenthetical statement. Is it an allowance for alternate universes or something along those lines?
Jimmy,
As long as you’re thinking about prayers for the dead, I was meaning to bring the issue up with reference to your post from a few days ago, “Two Views on Purgatory”. You write:
For example, relying on the biblical emphasis on the sufferings and the divine “scourgings” of the saved as means of spiritual training, one might use the punishment model but say that the *only* temporal punishments God allows us to experience are those needed for our sanctification (which on anybody’s account is a painful process for most).
This would bring the two models significantly into harmony in that on both there would be no “excess” punishments one received. The only sufferings the believer would have on account of sin would be those used for his sanctification.
I don’t see how the “spiritual training” model can be reconciled with the practice of praying for the dead (or obtaining indulgences for them).
If a) the temporal punishments of purgatory are necessary for sanctification, and b) indulgences remove temporal punishments from the dead, then how are the dead who receive indulgences sanctified?
I can see how one can gain indulgences for oneself.. the indulgenced acts themselves lead to greater sanctity, so it makes sense that the temporal punishments remitted would be made unnecessary.
But how does my doing an indulgenced act, or saying a prayer for the deceased, help the dead person grow in holiness or separate himself from attachments to sin?
If the punishments of purgatory are to be for my good, then wouldn’t remitting those punishments be for me harm?
I don’t see how the “spiritual training” model can be reconciled with the practice of praying for the dead
“Lord, I pray that any spiritual training or discipline that X may still need will be smooth and quick, easily acquired, and not laborious and painful…”
Anyone who’s trained in a discipline (whether sports, scholarly, or other) knows that some skills and disciplines are more easily acquired than others. Sometimes it’s because the task is easy, sometimes it’s because we have a natural affinity for it, sometimes it’s because we’re more focused or because we’ve avoided/overcome certain physical & mental stumbling blocks, etc.
Why can’t the same be true in this scenario?
We don’t know or understand precisely how our prayers help the faithful who have preceded us, but we do know that they do.
Thanks for the nice and detailed response, as this is something that I had been wondering about as well, especially after reading about St. Faustina and other saints who emphasized God’s mercy, particularly in the last hours (ie St Therese).
Are there any scriptural references for praying for the dead? In the Old testament? Thanks
My Akin’s explanation seems weak and subjectivist. As he correctly points out, what has happened in the past has already happened, regardless of our knowledge. Therefore anything we do now will not effect what has, de facto, already taken place. For if this were not the case, then the past would not truly be past, unless we knew it. The past would not be determined. Reality would be conditioned by our subjective knowledge of it. This seems a kind of Molinism gone mad.
Example, inveterate sinner Joe dies 1000 years ago. We knew that when he died he experienced the particular judgment. When Judy is born 1000 years later, Joe is either in heaven, hell, or purgatory. To imply that Judy’s prayer for Joe’s conversion will effect his salvation is to say that Judy’s not praying may effect his damnation. Therefore before Judy prays, in time, it is not certain, objectively, if Joe is saved or damned. Because that salvation depends on a future event. But his salvation was already determined before Judy was born. Therefore we have a contradiction.
Judy knows that Joe is either in heaven, hell, or in purgatory, and that before she prays. If she does nothing his state (regarding salvation or damnation) will be exactly the same. Is it not presumptious to pray as if Joe was not yet in heaven, hell, or purgatory? The premiss of the prayer is a contradiction of reality, a denial of the past, because one wants it to be present.
God is outside of time, but he set up his world that runs in time, with causes that precede the effects.
Mr. Akin position appears to lead to the conclusion that God can cause the past not to have been, or change the past based on the future, because God is outside of time. We verge on a violation of the rule of non-contradiction. The past is over. Nothing we can do now can effect it. If you pray or don’t pray for some past event, it will not effect what was already determined before you began to exist.
As for personal knowledge, we know that the past is fixed, so praying as if it were not fixed, and that it could be further determined by our prayer, is just as objectionable as praying that September 11th didn’t happen.
I would be highly edified if Mr. Akins could produce any magisterial, patristic, scholastic, etc. source to support this apparently novel thesis.
Further clarified example:
Joe dies, and is either in heaven, hell, or purgatory.
Joe was a bad guy, so Judy decides to pray for his conversion.
If Judy knows that he is in heaven or purgatory, it is superfluous and false, and therefore irreverent to pray that be converted from sin.
If she knows that he is in hell, it is impermissible to pray for his conversion, because this is impossible.
If Judy does not know his final state, she still knows that he is either in heaven, purgatory, or hell.
If he is in heaven or purgatory one can not pray for his conversion.
If he is in hell one can not pray for his conversion.
Therefore Judy knows that whatever the situation, wherever Joe is, one can not pray for Joe’s conversion.
Therefore this idea of praying as if a past event were still in the future, is objectionable and false.
Or are we to pray for good events that we know have already have taken place? Perhaps we should pray for the first coming of the Messiah, and become Judaizers?
Or are we to pray for the avoidance of bad events that have already taken place?
Or if we know that an event was already good or bad, though we don’t know which, are we to pray as if we didn’t know that the outcome was already determined?
This is silly. I appreciate the thoughtfulness, but I don’t see how that position can be sustained. It’s like time travel. It seems OK until you start thinking about the contradictions it entails.
Breier-
Why can’t God (being outside time) apply our future prayers to current events?
I see no conundrum.
Prayer is talking to God. I can tell God how much I desire an individual to be with Him in heaven, before death, during death, or after death.
It seems inhumane to me to tell someone that they can talk to God about anything except their desire for their newly departed to be with him. That, to me, seems an unsustainable claim.
Many, many, many prayers are for things that happened in the past.
When we pray for the recovery of the sick, or for good weather, we are not — unless we are very lacking in faith — demanding a miraclous recovery. But a natural recovery is predicated on events that might, in theory, be traced back to the beginning of the world.
Just a thought, but…perhaps another way to think of the issue is to consider how God can apply the salvific graces won by Christ on the cross to people living before the Passion, such as the Blessed Mary in the case of her Immaculate Conception?
Maybe God who knows the past,present and future, knows that this family member will be praying for this other member after they have died and gives them the grace to repent right before they die. In our knowledge we sometimes are not sure if a loved one has silently repented(in their heart)at the last minute.
So prayer to God is a non-causal system instead of a causal system. I get it.
Now, the next questions is:
Is prayer to God a Linear Time-Invariant system?
I’ll have to chew on that one for a while. I don’t suspect its linear. As far as time-invariance goes, a dispensationalist would definately say it isn’t. However, this does not mean that not being a dispensationalist implies that one must believe the system is time-invariant.
Also, the response is dependant on the will of an absolute, making this system a good candidate for invertability. I said candidate because I don’t beleive it is invertable, two different prayers could yield the same affect, which to me is non-invertability (unless one would wish to argue that two different prayers could never yeild the EXACT same result.)
And lets not forget the level of noise we’re dealing with (ours, not His.) Not to mention the unstability of the whole mess (again, us, not Him.)
I don’t know about this. We humans are only good at dealing with much simpler scenarios. Maybe I should just stick to playing with Legos.
Man, I should have spell checked that before posting.
Are there any scriptural references for praying for the dead? In the Old testament?
The tradition of praying for the dead is not practiced solely by Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Church of the East Christians. Jews have also offered such prayers since before Christ. 2Macc. 12:45 records, “[I]t was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” (Whether a person accepts the book as canonical is irrelevant; it clearly records that this is something pious Jews do.)
Jews still offer prayers for the dead for one year after their death and on the anniversaries of their death. This prayer is known as the “kaddish.” Jews have historically believed, and many still believe, that the faithful departed undergo a period of purification which may be aided by the prayers and charity of the living. The Kaddish Foundation is a modern example of this ancient belief in action.
So the earliest Christians already had a well developed tradition of praying for the dead.
Why can’t God (being outside time) apply our future prayers to current events?
I see no conundrum.
I agree.
Prayer is talking to God. I can tell God how much I desire an individual to be with Him in heaven, before death, during death, or after death.
It seems inhumane to me to tell someone that they can talk to God about anything except their desire for their newly departed to be with him. That, to me, seems an unsustainable claim.
C.S. Lewis shared your sentiments on this! “Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age, the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to him?” (Letters to Malcolm)
The past is determined and unchangeable. Certain things that happenened in the past may have been conditioned on future events, true. But that is beside the question. The question is that, us knowing that the past is determined and unchangeable, we can pray to determine the past. This is intellectually schizophenric. It is to treat the past as future.
What has happened in the past has already happened! That’s what the past means! Nothing we consciously do now will change that. God can not change the past, and neither can we.
It should be fairly clear to something that if something has already taken place in the past, and we know that it’s past, our prays will have no effect. Thus with those who have died, the only appropriate prayer for them is for the repose of their soul.
To say that “God is outside of time” is simply a deux ex machina to coverup for this gross violation of reason, causality, and the principal of non-contradiction. How does it follow from the fact that God does not change, that we can determine what has already been determined?
Breier-
Joe is dying.
As he is dying, God is aware of future prayers that will be said on his behalf.
God honors these future prayers by granting Joe an extra share of grace.
Joe responds to this grace (in his heart) by repenting of his sins and putting his faith in Christ.
Unbeknownst to anyone but God, Joe’s soul is saved before he dies, the future prayers on his behalf being efficacious.
Where is this gross violation of reason?
Certainly there is no need to pray about circumstances that we already know have come out a certain way… THAT would be nonsense.
But to pray about some unknown aspect of the past need not be a contradiction.
God can not change the past, and neither can we.
God has no past. Your mistake is thinking He has.