A reader writes:
On the Old testament i read that Elijah was ascend unto Heaven and on the Epistle of Jude 1:9 indicates that Moses was ascend too.
But Jesus said that he no one was came into heaven except himself which came from Heaven…I’m confused enough with that, could you explain.
Off the top of my head, I can see three possibilities here:
- Elijah and others didn’t ascend to the same heaven that Jesus came from but to somewhere else.
- Jesus doesn’t mean for his comment to apply to all humans of all periods, so it allows for at least a handful of exceptions like Enoch and Elijah.
- Jesus is talking about his own particular kind of ascension, which is different than those of others. For example, he ascends under his own power (in cooperation with the Father and the Spirit), but others could not ascend under their own power. They had to be carried up to heaven by divine power, so they were "assumed" rather than "ascended."
- Jesus is talking about people who would be in a position to tell Nicodemus (who he is talking to) about heavenly things. He thus is thinking of people who are now on earth that could tell Nicodemus about heavenly things. Since Enoch, Elijah, and Moses were not at that moment on earth, they could not tell Nicodemus about heaven.
Option #1 does not seem that likely to me because Scripture says they went to heaven (Hebrew, shmayim) and because prior to the Incarnation Jesus did not have a physical form and so, as the Second Person of the Trinity, it would be equally present in all heavenly realms since he is everywhere. He is still everywhere in his divinity, of course, but at least today he has a body, so if he is in "third heaven" (let’s say) then we could say that he’s present everywhere but also present in third heaven in a special way since he is present there both in his divinity and his humanity. But before the Incarnation he had no humanity and so it would not be as easy to say he was specially in one heaven rather than another.
Option #2 is possible since Jesus may have been speaking of a restricted group of people, such as those of his current day. Of those living in the third century when Jesus said this (John 3:13), none of them had ascended to heaven. Jesus thus might have meant, "Of everyone you have ever met and of everyone alive today, none of them has ascended to heaven."
Option #3 is also possible, though I think it’s less likely than #2 or #4.
Option #4 seems more probable to me. If you look at verse 12, Jesus sets up his statement by saying:
12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13: No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.
That question "how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" sets up "No one has ascended to heaven." If we try to relate these two, the logic might be: "How could you believe if I told you about heavenly things? Nobody here on earth right now has ascended to heaven, therefore you’d have no way of knowing about heaven and whether what I was saying was true. If you don’t trust me when I tell you about earthly things, therefore, why would you believe if I told you about heavenly things? It’s not like you could consult Shlomo down the street and ask him what he saw last time he was in heaven and thus confirm what I said. So far, I’m the only one who’s come from there and only I can tell you about it. You’ll either have to trust me or not."
The fact that Elijah and some others had gone there wouldn’t affect this logic since they didn’t come back to tell people what they saw.
It is understandable that you’d be confused, though. This is a confusing passage. Taken on its face, it makes it sound like Jesus has already ascended to heaven, when we know from elsewhere in the New Testament that he hasn’t.
Hope this helps!
Any thoughts on why it seems that Jesus implies that he has already ascended into heaven at this stage in his earthly ministry, when AFAWK he hasn’t yet?
E.g., could the verse be an interjection by John writing post ascension, rather than something meant to represent what Jesus said at the time?
Steven – I think what Jimmy is trying to say (correct me if I’m wrong) is that Jesus is using the word “ascended” in a different context than ‘the ascension’. Jesus isn’t saying that he has already ascended into heaven, but that he’s the only one currently present on earth that has been to heaven, and that there’s nobody here on earth that can corroborate Jesus’ first hand knowledge of heavenly things.
…at least that’s what I got out of it.
Maybe Elijah and Moses were assumed into heaven. Could an observer on the ground tell the difference between an assumption and an ascension?
In other words, can we make the assumption assumption?
Get it?
Hey – it’s Friday afternoon…
In the Catholic Answers library, in the Purgatory article, it says: “[the Bible] speaks plainly of a third condition, commonly called the limbo of the Fathers, where the just who had died before the redemption were waiting for heaven to be opened to them.” (http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp)
See also the Summa Theologica (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/506900.htm)
and the Catholic Enyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm)
I understand Jesus’ words in this context.
And no man hath ascended up to heaven
Adventists and others often use the following verse to show that Catholics are wrong in saying that the souls of the dead can go to heaven immediately after death:
(Joh 3:13 KJV) And no man hath ascended up to heav
John J. Simmins suggests, “Maybe Elijah and Moses were assumed into heaven. Could an observer on the ground tell the difference between an assumption and an ascension?”
I would refer Mr. Simmins to 2 Kings, 2:11. “As they (Elijah and Elisha) were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.”
That’s a thing that, if you saw it as Elisha did, would be kinda hard to miss.
2 Kings 2:11 would give credence to Jimmy’s proposed #3: “Jesus is talking about his own particular kind of ascension, which is different than those of others. For example, he ascends under his own power . . . but others could not ascend under their own power. They had to be carried up to heaven by divine power . . .”
Elijah has to ride a chariot to heaven; Jesus just rises to the sky of His own accord (Mark 16:19, Luke 24:51 and Acts 1:9). Or did He? My translation has Jesus “taken” in the passive voice. So I dunno.
I would favor Jimmy’s 4th option: “Jesus is talking about people who would be in a position to tell Nicodemus (who he is talking to) about heavenly things. He thus is thinking of people who are now on earth that could tell Nicodemus about heavenly things.”
Nicodemus is a Pharisee who sneaked away from the other Pharisees under the cover of night in order to talk to Jesus. Jesus tells Nicodemus that he has to be born anew to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but Nicodemus is confused. So Jesus tries again, saying that he has to be born of the water and the spirit. Nicodemus is still, sympathetically, confused, so Jesus tells him that the wind blows where it wills–you can hear it, feel it, see its effects, but you have no idea what the wind is. Nicodemus says, in effect, “Umm . . . WHAT???” Jesus then tells him, in effect, “You experience wind every day, yet you cannot understand it. I am speaking to you as One who knows the secrets of Heaven, of which you have no concept. How can you hope to understand THAT when you don’t even get the idea of wind?”
In other words, I don’t think that Jesus’ main point was that He was the only One to ever go up into Heaven (whether you call it “assumption” or “ascension”–though I do NOT dispute that there is a difference between the terms). I think that His point was to convey to Nicodemus that He (Jesus) had experienced Heaven (at least in His Divine nature as the Second Person of the Trinity–whether He did in His human nature is arguable, and Mark 13;32 seems to uphold that case as Jesus says that the Son of Man [Himself] does not know when God the Father is planning the end of the world).
Anyway, Jesus’ main point in John 3:13 appears to be that Nicodemus wants to know things that he cannot possibly understand. Jesus is merely pointing out to Nicodemus that he (Nicodemus) barely understands a natural phenomenon; how then would a Man come down from Heaven therefore explain to him SUPERnatural phenomena?
Maybe Jesus meant that only he had ascended into heaven under his own power, in contrast to people like Elijah and Enoch who were taken up by the power of Another.
I have no problem with the idea that Jesus could have ascended into heaven at times not specified in the gospels, before his crucifixion.
– Roger
I believe that the verse means that no one has ascended to heaven and was able to come back to earth to speak of heavenly things exept jesus .
the second part of the verse just clarifies that he Jesus was in heaven before he was born as Jesus has told us many times in the gospels that he was sent by God to us.