Down yonder, a reader writes:
Read it myself.
I think we need a spoiler warning thread or we will all burst.
Your wish is my command.
One spoiler-warning thread coming up.
Abandon all right to complain about spoilers, ye who enter here.
SPOILER WARNING ON THE COMBOX!
UPDATE: Comments on this one are still going strong, so I’m bumping it up in the stack so folks who want to interact won’t have to scroll so far down to get to it.
Author: Jimmy Akin
Jimmy was born in Texas, grew up nominally Protestant, but at age 20 experienced a profound conversion to Christ. Planning on becoming a Protestant seminary professor, he started an intensive study of the Bible. But the more he immersed himself in Scripture the more he found to support the Catholic faith, and in 1992 he entered the Catholic Church. His conversion story, "A Triumph and a Tragedy," is published in Surprised by Truth. Besides being an author, Jimmy is the Senior Apologist at Catholic Answers, a contributing editor to Catholic Answers Magazine, and a weekly guest on "Catholic Answers Live."
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WAAAAAHHH!!! How could she kill Dumbledore?!??
I remember thinking the same thing about Obi-Wan when I saw Star Wars and about Gandalf when I first read The Lorg of the Rings (until I looked ahead accidentally and saw that he wasn’t really dead). It’s a literary convention that the wise mentor has to die (of in the case LOTR, be thought to be dead by the hero) so that the hero isn’t dependent any more and does what he needs to do.
Actually, I was quite surprised at the end of book V that it was Sirius who died and not Dumbledore. Since I knew he pretty much had to die before book seven, this was no surprise at all to me. It was rather surprising that Snape did it, though that was rather set up in the second chapter (though we didn’t know for sure what Malfoy’s mission was until the end, and therefore what Snape was bound to complete or die).
I am disappointed. I was frankly a large fan of the Snape being a good guy, Snape being finding redemption in turning to the good side thing. Of course he could still do this, but I doubt it. While I suppose it wa a bit of a shock after what happened with him in the previous book, I still just see a much deeper and better story if Snape fights for the side of good after all we learn about his past.
Hi Shane!
I still believe that a redemption for Snape is in the works for Book 7. We know from Book 3 that saving a wizard’s life creates a special obligation and that Harry would have inherited Snape’s obligation to Harry’s father, especially if Snape was even remotely responsible for the death of James Potter. We also know that in almost every interaction between Dumbledore and Snape that Snape was being asked to do something he would rather not do. Because Snape had Dumbledore’s explicit confidence up until the very end, it would appear that Snape did perform whatever was asked of him. We also need to realize that throughout the series, Rowling is constantly shattering our preconceptions. Nothing can be taken for granted because nothing is what it appears to be. I think that it is not unreasonable to suppose that there may have been a purpose for everything, including the apparent murder of Dumbledore.
I have to agree with the Other Eric. Dumbledore’s constant “Get Professor Snape” makes me think that the whole thing was planned. Maybe part of his soul is in a whozywhatsits or he will just come back as an advice giver from one of the paintings, but I doubt that he is gone. My guess is that he did what he did–the vow and the curse–to save Malfoy and did so at the instruction of Dumbledore.
Okay, here’s the big spoiler of Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince:
Harry and Voldemort are dueling on a bridge across an apparently bottomless shaft. Harry makes a mistake and leaves himself open, Voldemort takes the opportunity and zaps Harry’s wand-wielding hand, which falls into the hole below. Now helpless, Harry inches away as Voldemort towers over him.
VOLDEMORT: Harry, Dumbledore never told you who your father was, did he?
HARRY: He told me enough! He told me YOU killed him!
VOLDEMORT: Harry, I am your father.
HARRY: NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! THAT’S IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!
VOLDEMORT: Harry, join me and we can rule the world as father and son.
HARRY: I’LL NEVER JOIN YOU! AAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!
Harry leaps down the shaft, and he is rescued by his friends on broomsticks waiting below.
Now, tomorrow I’ll explain how Harry and Hermione rescue Ron from his imprisonment in Carbonite.
Maybe part of his soul is in a whozywhatsits or he will just come back as an advice giver from one of the paintings, but I doubt that he is gone
There’s no way in Hell that Dumbledore would ever, ever, ever even think about using a Horcrux (i.e., murdering someone to tear his soul in two and putting it in an object). No, he’s definitely gone.
As for Snape’s reasons for killing Dumbledore, I think its pretty clear that what happened when Narcissa and Bellatrix visited his house was not part of his plan with Dumbledore. If Snape had been trying to find out what the plan was (on Dumbledore’s orders), he would have let Narcissa tell him (which she was about to do) rather than pretend to know and then get jockeyed into taking an Unbreakable Vow to complete it if Draco looked like he was going to fail. If he had been a loyal follower of Voldemort, he wouldn’t have made the Unbreakable Vow to stop Draco from being killed, since that was part of the point of sending a 16-year-old to kill Dumbledore (i.e., to get Draco killed in retribution for Lucius’ incompetence with the prophecy and the diary). Snape’s motives remain clouded, especially since when he killed Dumbledore he was under the Unbreakable Vow and couldn’t have chosen not to without dying.
I was very very annoyed at the ending, and basically at how the entire book was structured. It’s established in the second chapter that someone will be killed at Hogwarts, and that either Draco or Malfoy will do it. Then the rest of the book tries to contradict that chapter, except of course for Harry’s insistent “Snape and Malfoy, Snape and Malfoy.” Nobody else believes him. Oh, and then it happens exactly that way. It seems like Rowling really threw away one of the redeeming themes in Harry Potter, namely the idea of redemption, and substitutes for it the idea that only Harry is at all intelligent and levelheaded. Dumbledore ends up looking like an idiot, and I think Rowling was very unwise to do that. Essentially Harry’s world is now comprised solely of adults who are malicious idiots, well-meaning idiots, or evil idiots. Not exactly a great message for all the 11-year-olds reading this series.
Perhaps. However, it is possible that the entire matter of Dumbledore’s death, and Snape’s murder of him, is nothing more than part of some deeper plan, like in The Sting, if anyone has ever seen it.
I enjoy water-tubing, and my dad enjoys whipping me off of the tube. He tries his best to slew the speedboat around at speeds and angles of turn that would kill a normal human being; I enjoy this, and by and large can take it in stride. However, sometimes he tries to whip me by taking the boat in an S-shape. When he does, there is slack on the rope at the end of the first curve, and as the boat goes into the second curve the tube is jerked back to full speed very violently. When this happens I almost always just let go, because I know that it will be too much for me.
This anecdote has significance here because it’s basically what Rowling has done, only even more so. She initially (chapter 2) told us that Snape was plotting murder; then she went the other way for the entire book (that he wasn’t really, instead he was on Dumbledore’s side); then at the end she whipped back to Snape actually being murderous after all. As I said before, it’s not well-done enough to seem natural; it feels very contrived to me, actually. If she is going to try to redeem Snape (which I don’t think she will, him being an adult and therefore one-dimensional in Rowling’s style), she had better do it in a natural way, or I’m just going to chuck HP entirely.
Look, it’s pretty obvious from the beginning of the book that Dumbledore is either A) dying of his hand injury or B) fully aware from prophecy or time travel that he’s going to bite the dust Real Soon Now. And Snape (who treated the hand injury) is well aware of this. That’s why Snape felt free to take that Unbreakable Vow.
Alternately, Snape was planning to prevent Malfoy from doing his mission (killing Dumbledore or Harry), not do it either, and then just take the Unbreakable Vow consequences on himself. (Not that he’s suicidal; he just decided he’s expendable.) Dumbledore through Legilimens (all that staring) saw the Vow, informed Snape that he wasn’t expendable and would need to be trusted by Voldie for the next phase of the plan, and ordered Snape to kill him since he was a dead duck anyway thanks to the potion.
Either way, Snape ain’t guilty. It’s a mystery story, folks. You gotta expect misdirection. The person you think’s guilty right before the end never is.
ok, in that moment, when Dumbledore says, “Severus,” I think it’s entirely possible that Dumbledore is actually pleading with Snape to kill him, so that Draco is not made to do so. Draco is not evil… yet. He is just a kid. If he had killed Dumbledore, though, he would have been pretty darn lost in the service of voldemort. As Maureen said, it was quite clear that he was going to die anyway.
To quote a friend: “Not convinced he’s totally good and that Dumbledore’s death was somehow part of the plan, but him screaming at Harry ‘HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A COWARD’ kind of smacks of ‘After what I just did, killing the only man who has trusted me, I can’t believe you’re calling me a coward.’
Because now, let’s see… what are Snape’s options? If he’s not really evil, then he’s going to have a LOT of trouble convincing anyone of that since Harry saw what happened. The Order will not accept him back. If he is good, then what can he do?
I think one of the big things that’s clear from Book 5 is that Harry has to do better than the previous generation. Snape cannot seem to forgive James for being mean to him when they were in school. Can Harry forgive Snape for his cruelty? If he realizes that Snape is on the good side after all- assuming that Dumbledore is a better judge of character than Voldemort- then will he be able to forgive him?
I disagree with Peter H that Dumbledore “looks like an idiot” I wonder about his motives, and what he’s thinking there at the end, but at no time do I doubt that he knows way more than we do.
For instance, he obviously knew that for one reason or another, Snape would not be at Hogwarts after this year.
Is the school really going to close, do you think?
Anyone guess who R.A.B is? I think I know…. but I can’t take credit for figuring it out, a friend did….
Snape was neither as loyal to Dumbledore as Dumbledore thought (or he wouldn’t have made the Unbreakable Vow), nor loyal to Voldemort either (or he wouldn’t have made the Unbreakable Vow in that case either). His agenda is somewhat of a mystery, at least to me.
As for R.A.B., my guess is that he is Regulus Black, Sirius’ younger brother who was a Death Eater and who did some time ago (which tracks with the note, in which the author said that he would soon die). He was mentioned at least twice in the book, which I took to be a hint (whether a true hint or a false one is yet to be seen).
who did some time ago
That should have been “who died some time ago.
Dumbledore through Legilimens (all that staring) saw the Vow, informed Snape that he wasn’t expendable and would need to be trusted by Voldie for the next phase of the plan, and ordered Snape to kill him since he was a dead duck anyway thanks to the potion.
Snape’s too good an Occlumens for Legilimancy to work on him. Voldemort is at least as good an Legilimens as Dumbledore, probably better; if Snape’s mind could be read, he would have been dead two years before he killed Dumbledore.
I don’t think Dumbledore being killed by Snape was according to plan. True, the potion was killing Dumbledore, but I think Snape could have countered it had he both wanted to and been free to do so. I also think that he is not loyal to Voldemort, was still partially loyal to Dumbledore on some level (he hesitated from taking the part of the oath to kill Dumbledore if it looked like Draco would fail), and either very loyal to the Malfoys or else has an agenda of his own that we don’t know about. I don’t think he’s totally good, but I don’t think he’s as evil as the Good Guys believe him to be at this point either.
Earthie who is your guess for RAB?
Same guess as Publius!
But, question: why would this last thing Dumbledore did turn out to be rather “pointless” because it was already destroyed?
Good question. I was revently reading Jimmy’s reules for major character deaths, and that would certainly violate one of them.
why would this last thing Dumbledore did turn out to be rather “pointless” because it was already destroyed?
I’m not sure it was “pointless”. In the first case, Dumbledore was getting through to Malfoy, and managed to talk him out of killing him; that may have consequences later on, such as Draco and maybe even his mother too turning against Voldemort. Secondly, learning about Regulus’ activities wasn’t pointless; while it seems less likely, it is possible that the Slytherin locket wasn’t the only Horcrux that Regulus knew about. We may find out in book VI that he retrieved and/or destroyed others, or at least left behind a record or hints to their locations. It is also possible that Regulus may have had other items or information of benefit, so I don’t think that Harry and Dumbledore’s trip to the cave will have been for nothing.
Riddle’s “Tell the truth” command to Dumbledore which “sounded as though he had given it many times before”…. he couldn’t already do legilimens, could he? I mean… don’t you need to say the words?
“Dumbledore through Legilimens (all that staring) saw the Vow, informed Snape that he wasn’t expendable and would need to be trusted by Voldie for the next phase of the plan, and ordered Snape to kill him since he was a dead duck anyway thanks to the potion.”
Well, it’s a very archetypical story, so it’s wholly necessary to the plot that Dumbledore, Harry’s mentor, bites it, so that Harry has to come of age and complete his mission on his own, using everything he’s learned, bla bla bla. So, I totally knew he was gunna bite it.
However, with Dumbie being soo secretive about how/why he trusts Snape to the bitter end and won’t let anyone speak badly about him, I’m inclined to think that Dumbledore knew it was coming (also keeping in step with what someone said about snape having no compunction about making that oath.
And like… wt- I have sympathy for Malfoy. That makes me mad that I’m sad for him. I wanna hate him, really I do.
Oh yeah, and if Harry and Ginny don’t get back together soon (why can’t she come on the little adventure too?? Stupid Super Hero Reason #3–you’ll get hurt–aside??)… I’m gunna storm the castle with pitchforks.
Glad I’m not the only one who read the Dumbledore v. Snape thing as I did. If Snape had wanted to kill Dumbledore, he could easily have done so when Dumbledore first asked Snape to treat him (or he could have let him die). Dumbledore has been shown to be a great judge of character — note how he caught on to Riddle when Riddle was only 11 — so I highly doubt that he completely misjudged Snape.
Harry read the situation as he did through the lens of his prejudice against Snape. He has never trusted anyone’s judgment, even Dumbledore’s, over and above the limits of his own knowledge and experience. This, of course, ties into Rowling’s grander theme of the dangers of prejudice.
My guess is that Dumbledore, for whatever his reasons, was pleading with Snape to kill him. And then Snape saved Harry once more from the Crucio curse. (After all, Snape could have simply abducted Harry to take him to Voldemort for Voldemort to kill.) I think Year 7 is intended to shatter once and for all our illusions about Snape.
That said, this will all depend on how Rowling plays it out. If I’m reading the scene in Year 6 correctly, Snape’s action could easily be seen, objectively speaking, as euthanasia. I’ve always more or less liked and respected Snape, so I’m hoping Rowling doesn’t destroy his character (or Dumbledore’s, with the perceived request to be killed).
Now, when is Year 7 being released already?! 🙂
Michelle – it could be euthanasia, but I’m not sure, really. Think of the Unbreakable Vow: at this point, it was a choice between (a) Dumbledore being murdered by Draco (b) Dumbledore being murdered by Snape (c) Dumbledore not being murdered by either, and both Snape and Draco dying, the former because of the vow and the latter being murdered by Death Eaters for having failed to come up to scratch. And then Dumbledore would probably have been killed anyway by one of the Death Eaters, considering his weakened state from the potion. It wasn’t just a question of whether Dumbledore died, it was a question of who else was going to be taken out along with him, considering the Vow and the circumstances at the time.
I don’t know if Dumbledore could really be said to be pleading to die so much as pleading with Snape not to let Draco become either a murderer or the victim of a murderer. Snape’s motivations are a lot murkier, as they always are, and I’d imagine that simply not wanting to die certainly played some part in what he did. I’m not a big proponent of Byronic!Heroic!Snape so I’m perfectly ready to believe that the guy is really a sh!t, but we just don’t know enough about the background of the situation yet.
First, I want to say that I’ve read books 1-5 several times and have proudly considered myself a fan, until my misgivings of late. I think Snape killed Dumbledore as part of DD’s plan or on his orders or in some other “redeemable” way, but what bothers me is how JKR wrote this as the lesser evil being the “right” thing to do.
Dumbledore made it very clear that murder is THE greatest evil, that it rips the murderer’s soul, and of course AK is THE Unforgivable Curse. So no matter why he did it, no matter what good should come from it, what Snape did was evil. I don’t doubt that the story will play out that he did the “right” thing for all the reasons that people have brought up – saving Draco, getting so close to Voldemort so he can help Harry defeat him – but that doesn’t make what he did GOOD.
This has been a point that so many of HP’s critics have made, that JKR depicts choosing the lesser evil as the morally right choice. This is inherently SO problematic, especially for books read by children, and I think this latest development with Snape AKing Dumbledore really takes the prize.
I think it’d be really hard to argue that what Snape did was not morally wrong. A good intention doesn’t make an objectively evil act good. Yes, it can be permissible to use lethal force when necessary, but only when the intent is not to kill but to, for instance, stop an attacker.
I’d like to believe that the HP books aren’t seriously damaged by this plot point, but I don’t see how. I’d love for these books to be morally harmless, or even morally positive. I think arguments that Snape didn’t AK Dumbledore but did some nonverbal magic while not putting his will behind the Avada Kedavra are pretty weak. But I’d most welcome arguments that Snape’s action does anything other than reinforce the concept that if you do it for the right reasons, whatever it is, it’s okay.
I don’t think Rowling meant to show what Snape did as in any way good. If she did, why did Snape’s face contort in hatred right before casting Avada Kedevra? Nor do I fully buy that Dumbledore was pleading with Snape to kill him. I think he was pleading with Snape not to, that he wasn’t afraid that the other Death Eaters would do it in Malfoy’s place (since they were really loyal to the Dark Lord and wouldn’t violate his command that Malfoy should do it) and that he had just begun to realize that Snape might not be as unswervingly loyal as he thought.
Remember also that Dumbledore does has at least one weakness: overlooking faults in his friends. He nearly canonized Harry in one of their meetings, despite Harry having several (mostly minor) flaws and he never said anything to Harry about trying to use the unforgiveable Cruciatus curse on Bellatrix Lestrange, though I think it was extremely likely that he was already there in hiding (since he knew Voldemort was also there and was waiting for him to show himself). I think this flaw of Dumbledores found its culmination in Snape’s betraying and killing him.
I could of course be wrong about all this and the Snape Fan Club could be right.
Keep in mind that these books are not written as a tidy morale treatise, but as a good yarn. We can’t expect all fictional characters to behave in a way that would be approved by the Holy See.
The way Gollum is treated by Frodo and Sam in LOTR is an example. While Sam’s mistrust and hatred for Gollum is understandable, he is clearly in the wrong (at times) in his treatment of Gollum. Still, in the books, he is held up as worthy of praise and admiration for his behavior overall.
Snape should have kept himself out of the Unbreakable Spell.
That being so, the spell puts a shade of ambiguity into his actions at the end.
OTOH, after the way in the first three books the Obviously Guilty Person turned out innocent, it’s a pleasant to surprise to find him guilty of at least criminal neglience.
Someone had to point out to me that “B” could stand for “Black” before I realized — duuhhh, Regulus.
Finally — of Love and Romance.
There was too much snoggling in the book. Not that teen romance would be implausible but that it didn’t harmonize with the rest of the book, the way the school story has always harmonized with the fantasy elements.
And Fleur, while excitable and talkative before, was not like this. Her character was changed to give the Weasleys grounds to be hostile to the match. (But Bill was not characterized enough to make it clear that he loves Fleur in spite of this.)
OTOH, “I am good-looking enough for both of us, I theenk!” is a great line.
And I was quite fond of the Tonks and Remus Lupine plotline, even if it occupied about a page.
Adults being willing to go on with marriage is a good theme in a novel about terrible times.
(Though I have read an article that compared the Weasleys’ clock, with every hand always pointed at “mortal danger” as being paranoid. But everyone really is in mortal danger, all the time in this book. To tell the truth, we all are, all the time. )
I didn’t see JKR depicting what Snape did as good. It’s not as if all the other characters are nodding their heads and saying “Yes, he made a difficult but wise choice in the end. After all, Dumbledore was probably dying anyway.” Instead, they’re horrified and sickened.
Just because Snape did what he did, and it’s a key plot point, does not mean that JKR is portraying it as the best thing that could have been done. The world’s books would be pretty dull if every character chose the best/most moral option every time. Imagine the fairy tales. “The princess told the prince that he could enter any room in the castle except for the one behind the little door in the attic. So the prince did as he was told and they lived happily ever after.” I mean, where’s the story if nobody makes a wrong or evil choice?
Why he went into the Unbreakable Vow is a bit of a mystery (at least to me). If he really had been loyal to Dumbledore, he certainly wouldn’t have done it (if he really didn’t know what The Plan was, he would have let Narcissa tell him), and if he had been completely on Voldemort’s side he wouldn’t have done it either but would rather have let Draco go to his fate.
One possibility (and perhaps the most charitable to Snape): he was in love with Narcissa and had been since his days at Hogwartz, but she wouldn’t have anything to do with him since he was a poor (note the hand-me-down potions text), greasy-haired half-blood (the opposite of the rich, handsome, pureblood Lucius). Perhaps he still secretly carried the torch and felt compelled to help her.
“And Fleur, while excitable and talkative before, was not like this. Her character was changed to give the Weasleys grounds to be hostile to the match. (But Bill was not characterized enough to make it clear that he loves Fleur in spite of this.)”
Love makes people extremely annoying when they’re doing the Public Display of Affection thing. I think they’d have liked her better if she wern’t snogging Bill in front of them 😉
There was too much snoggling in the book. Not that teen romance would be implausible but that it didn’t harmonize with the rest of the book, the way the school story has always harmonized with the fantasy elements.
Agreed.
(Though I have read an article that compared the Weasleys’ clock, with every hand always pointed at “mortal danger” as being paranoid. But everyone really is in mortal danger, all the time in this book. To tell the truth, we all are, all the time. )
We should all keep in mind that it was “programmed” during the lull between Voldemort’s downfall (i.e., it was either built or altered after Ginny’s birth) and his return, so it is too sensitive for the current climate of constant danger. Someone should try to retune the thing.
I don’t think Snape’s actions were at all planned or foreseen by Dumbledore, and I’m certain he’s dead. (He wouldn’t put the rest of them through this kind of grief if he weren’t.) I agree with Publius–Snape is most likely forwarding his own agenda here. It may be an unrequited love for Narcissa, or it may be a twisted, ruthless and vainglorious ambition–“I will bring down the Dark Lord myself, and if anyone has to die to fulfill that . . . well, they’re all thugs, Mudbloods, or Muggle-lovers anyway.” He also appears to have sacrificed Emmeline Vance for the sake of keeping himself trusted by and useful to the Death Eaters, and I can’t see Dumbledore or the rest of the Order countenancing that.
Tammy–Harry wasn’t going to bring anyone along on his quest anyway, and he didn’t tell Ginny about it because she wasn’t cleared by Dumbledore for the information about the Horcruxes. Only Ron and Hermione were supposed to know–he wouldn’t even tell McGonagall. That said, I’ll bring the torches and pitchforks. 🙂
And I think there may be one more Horcrux unknown to everyone, perhaps even to Voldemort–Harry himself.
And I think there may be one more Horcrux unknown to everyone, perhaps even to Voldemort–Harry himself.
I had that thought myself. Given the connection between them and Harry’s absorbing some of Voldemort’s powers (like speaking Parseltongue – something we’ve only ever seen elsewhere in direct descendents of Salazar Slytherin). Then there is the fact that he had just committed two murders when he turned on Harry…
It also brings to mind this exchange between Harry and Dumbledore:
“The snake?” said Harry, startled. “You can use animals as Horcruxes?”
“Well, it is inadvisable to do so,” said Dumbledore, “because to confide a part of your soul to something that can think and move for itself is obviously a very risky business.”
The idea that Harry is a horocrux is incredibly interesting, and would answer a lot of questions, such as why Harry lived. Additionally, it would have implications for the prophecy that Harry would either kill Voldemort or die himself.
I had thought from an earlier episode that Harry’s ability to take Voldemort into himself, might require Harry to die in order for Voldemort to be killed — trapped in Harry.
I’m interested to see that so many others saw what happened at the end the way I do. Harry paralized, Snape sent for, plead with. Dieing in war in order to deceive the enemy and thus finally defeat the enemy. Especially if the hand injury were like cancer or gangrene and could not be stopped, only slowed. Dumbledore was going to tell Harry about it ‘but not yet’.
I’m interested to see that so many others saw what happened at the end the way I do. Harry paralized, Snape sent for, plead with. Dieing in war in order to deceive the enemy and thus finally defeat the enemy. Especially if the hand injury were like cancer or gangrene and could not be stopped, only slowed. Dumbledore was going to tell Harry about it ‘but not yet’.
I still don’t buy the “it-was-all-according-to-plan” theory for reasons I’ve stated above as well as this: if Dumbledore had ordered Snape to kill him in place of Malfoy, that would mean that Dumbledore would be leaving the timing of his death up to Malfoy and when he chose to make his move. That would be an extremely foolish thing to do. Malfoy could have fixed the Vanishing Cabinet months earlier and made his move, forcing Snape to kill Dumbledore (since if it was all according to plan, Dumbledore would know about the whole of the Vow, including the “I will kill Dumbledore if it looks like Draco will fail” part) before he had finished teaching Harry what he needed to know. I also don’t think that Dumbledore would have had Harry with him had it all been according to plan, since it made Harry hate Snape far more and tipped off all the good guys that it was Snape that did it, thus making Snape’s word worth nothing outside of Death Eater circles.
Matthew said:
Tammy–Harry wasn’t going to bring anyone along on his quest anyway, and he didn’t tell Ginny about it because she wasn’t cleared by Dumbledore for the information about the Horcruxes. Only Ron and Hermione were supposed to know–he wouldn’t even tell McGonagall. That said, I’ll bring the torches and pitchforks. 🙂
True, true… he wasn’t planning on taking ANYONE, then he could only tell Hermione and Ron, because Dumbledore said so… but he still broke up with her over Stupid Superhero Reason #3.
OTOH, we can still hope for the romances we like. We know the series will end with book 7.
First a note: Interesting passing of the torch to harry from DD (dumbledore)– in the beginning, DD says Harry doesn’t have to worry because harry is with DD. At the end, DD says he didn’t worry because he was with harry.
I think THE crucial line about Snape is this one: (p. 604)
“DON’T–” Screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them– “CALL ME COWARD!”
What has Snape done that is so brave and no one knows about it?
She describes him there as being in PAIN like a dog stuck in a burning building! Like, trapped with the evil death eaters, perhaps? Perhaps because DD has insisted he keep spying? (that argument snape and DD had about DD taking too much for granted and snape not wanting to do it anymore?) It’s just interesting how she wrote that. I don’t think it could just be bruised ego, he’s been called worse I’m sure. Thoughts?
one more thing- I think it’s quite possible that Snape did not know what Malfoy was supposed to do at all. He may not have wanted to know. The first parts of that Vow were quite vague (“protect draco”) which he could easily fulfill. He flinched at the last one, perhaps because he didn’t even know what he would have to do. We know that he keeps trying to summon malfoy, and wants to know what he’s doing, wants to know the plan. I think he really doesn’t know. Obviously at the end, he realizes what malfoy has been ordered to do, thus what he has to do… maybe??? OH- and, when Malfoy was sneaking around, and Snape gets mad at him, Malfoy mentions that he would have had Crabbe and Goyle with him if Snape hadn’t put them in detention. Interesting…
one more thing- I think it’s quite possible that Snape did not know what Malfoy was supposed to do at all. He may not have wanted to know.
If he didn’t know, he wouldn’t have said that he did since Narcissa was about to tell him. Nor would he have gotten jockied into vowing to do what he was trying to discover and (we can assume) stop.
We know that he keeps trying to summon malfoy, and wants to know what he’s doing, wants to know the plan. I think he really doesn’t know.
I think Snape knew what Malfoy was supposed to do (kill Dumbledore), but not how he planned to do it (i.e., by bringing Death Eaters in through the Vanishing Cabinet).
OH- and, when Malfoy was sneaking around, and Snape gets mad at him, Malfoy mentions that he would have had Crabbe and Goyle with him if Snape hadn’t put them in detention. Interesting…
I think he was stalling (either that or probing their minds to find out if they knew what Malfoy was doing, which they didn’t). I think he did know, but he didn’t want to go through with it, but knew he would have to once Malfoy completed his plan. I think that Snape owed a wizard’s debt to Dumbledore, and like the debt Peter Pettigrew has to Harry for sparing his life. I think Snape did betray Dumbledore for reasons of his own (which we can only speculate on now, as I have above) and that Snape’s betrayal had magical consequences, hence his being in pain (and his rage at being called a coward).
You know, I suspect we will all know in a few years, when the next book comes out. 0:)
Insofar as Rowling can clear it up. Much of the debate revolves around how morally responsible Snape is, and even if we know what he was thinking, people can debate that.
Did it bother anyone but me that Dumbledore is dead because he put the freezing zinx on Harry instead of protecting his own wand??
Did it bother anyone but me that Dumbledore is dead because he put the freezing zinx on Harry instead of protecting his own wand??
Not really. He was dying from the potion he drank anyway, and the only person that could have saved him is the person who killed him. He lost nothing by giving up his wand but managed to convince Malfoy not to become a murderer (which is something he couldn’t have done with Harry free, since Harry probably would have killed him, or at least wounded him severely, once he realized what he was there to do).
I have read an article that compared the Weasleys’ clock, with every hand always pointed at “mortal danger” as being paranoid.
Why would it be “paranoia” for someone to believe that Voldemort intends to do away with all the members of the Order of the Phoenix? The article betrays absurd ignorance.
This is a great forum – ever since I read yr 6 I have been wanting to discuss it. Since the beginning I have been rooting for Snape. I think both in his heart, and as an actual double agent, he has a leg on both sides of the fence. I think he was treated so badly as a child, and then as a student (by Harry’s dad and Sirius) that he is filled with hate and cannot trust. Even if Harry and Lupin and the late Dumbledore were to sit down and tell him without anger/give the many examples that Harry is not arrogant like his Dad, and that Malfoy is actually the type of boy that Snape thinks Harry is, Snape would not be able to see it. Something huge will/would have to happen for Snape to see “the light” and I think that will happen in yr 7 (especially if that is the last book in the series). I do think that Dumbledore pleaded with Snape to prevent Malfoy from killing him – whether or not that means that Dumbledore wanted to be killed by Snape. He was protecting his student. I do definitely see connections to Star Wars in terms of Anakin being so blinded by arrogance and fear that he turns into Darth Vader.
There’s an interesting site called http://www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com/ that discusses the possiblity that Dumbledore’s death was faked. I’m hoping so, because that seems to be the only scenario that doesn’t a) have Snape really be a bad guy, which seemed to obvious for Dumbledore to miss if it really were the case; or b) create a scenario attempting to justify the deliberate, direct killing of an innocent person. Unfortunately, my suspicion is that Dumbledore is dead because he asked Snape to kill him if it became the only way to prevent Malfoy from becoming a murderer or getting killed by Voldemort.
One reason I really doubt Snape actually betrayed Dumbledore is Dumbledore’s pleading with him. Dumbledore had said repeatedly that he trusted Snape completely, despite the fact that no one seemed to quite understand why, and Dumbledore never really explained it. So, it seems unlikely he would assume that, upon entering the room, Snape would kill him. If he doesn’t think Snape will kill him, why plead?
That is, unless he was pleading with Snape to perform the curse. If he knew Snape wouldn’t want to do it but believed it was the only way to keep Malfoy, Snape and Harry alive, then it makes sense that he would plead.
Also, pleading for his own life seems really out of character for Dumbledore, who in Book 5 was telling Voldemort that one of his weaknesses was in not realizing that there are worse things than death, and in Book 6 comments that Harry’s life is more valuable than his own.
Also, pleading for his own life seems really out of character for Dumbledore, who in Book 5 was telling Voldemort that one of his weaknesses was in not realizing that there are worse things than death
Unless Dumbledore wasn’t pleading for his own sake, but for Snape’s sake, i.e., that he not tear his soul by committing murder. It is possible that Dumbledore realized, either from the look on his face or from his being there, that Snape’s loyalty wasn’t as absolute as he had thought. He has made mistakes before, such as underestimating Snape’s resentment towards Harry’s father in the Occlumency fiasco. He may have made another mistake this time.
I’ve just written a lengthy post about Snape’s motivations and loyalties. Check it out if you care to.
Publius,
Some interesting ideas there; I guess we’ll know when Book 7 comes out. (I’m not looking forward to the wait — I only started reading the books a few months ago, so I’ve never had to wait for a Harry Potter book to come out!)
I’m still having trouble believing Dumbledore could be so blind to someone who seemed so evil, when the only reason anyone else trusted Snape was because they trusted Dumbledore’s wisdom. But, maybe Rawling sees Dumbledore as a wise, but faulty, ordinary human being.
But, maybe Rawling sees Dumbledore as a wise, but faulty, ordinary human being.
I think that’s exactly what it is. Dumbledore was very wise, which makes his mistake correspondingly massive. I think he also has a weakness when it comes to those he considers his friends. While Harry clearly has faults, Dumbledore seems oblivious to them. The same could be true with Snape.
He had to do what he did becuase Vold. noted in the fourth book that he believed that he had lost Severus forever. Remember he said that three were dead, one had ran, one he believed lost forever and one (Barty Crouch Jr.) was still loyal.
one had ran, one he believed lost forever
Snape had managed to convince him otherwise when he apparated two hours later. Also, it turned out that what Voldemort said was right (from his own point of view, not in reality because I believe Snape is loyal to neither Voldemort nor the Order): Karkaroff turned out to be the one gone forever who was found and killed and Snape the one who ran.
<>
the book reads (GoF, U.S., pg 651): “one, too cowardly to return… he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever… he will be killed, of course.”
I don’t think it is obvious which of the two is Snape and which is Karkoroff. Both did not return right away – it took Snape two hours.
Also wanted to mention that in the Half Blood Prince, Ron is referred to as Rupert by Slughorn in one spot, pg 485 (“Had a house-elf taste every bottle after what happened to your poor friend Rupert.”), could this be a slip up where they used the actor’s real name (Rupert) instead of the character’s name (Ron)?
What do you think?
Ok ok ok ok ok… So dumbledore is dead. whether or not ALL OF THESE theories are true the seventh book will tell us….so how bout people get on with actually living their own lives instead of tryin to think about the inner workings of a book character? HP is great and all but jesus, u’s are digging into this a bit much i think.
adios
Ron vs. Rupert is simple. Slughorn didn’t find Ron very interesting and never bothered to learn his name.
There is an interesting character dynamic. Slughorn is obviously very proud of blood, very ambitious and very selective in his interests. But he doesn’t succumb blindly to those impulses; he frequently fights him.
Putting a freezing jinx on Harry — protecting someone else’s life at risk of your own is noble. Is anyone bothered that when Lord Voldemort told Lily she could run away, he wasn’t interested in her, she tried to protect Harry and died?
(Leaving aside the utilitarian calculus — but it is not wrong of a man to consider for himself that there are reasons why others’ lives may be more valuable than his. Two women on the Titanic arrived at a lifeboat with room for one more at the same time. It would have been wrong for the woman with children to tell the childless woman her life was more valuable; it was not wrong for the childless woman to say, as she did, “You go. You have children waiting for you.” (and she did drown, one of only two women in first-class to do so.))
so how bout people get on with actually living their own lives
I have a real life. It’s a life filled with books. 0:)
Unfortunately, my suspicion is that Dumbledore is dead because he asked Snape to kill him if it became the only way to prevent Malfoy from becoming a murderer or getting killed by Voldemort.
Me, too. 🙁
Snape’s face was filled with “hatred and revulsion,” but that could be because Dumbledore was forcing him entirely into the spy role that he already hated.
One plot hole in the books is that when they caught Sirius Black they didn’t think, “A big Voldemort supporter!” and fill him full of Veritiserum.
But Harry, to go to more moral balanced issues in the books, didn’t kill Sirius and more important*, didn’t let Sirius and Remus kill Peter. He may decide the pump full of Veritiserum is the right solution before killing him.
*It’s more important because just before he tried to kill Sirius, Sirius had told Ron not to hurt himself. Then when Harry was about to, and Crookshanks tried to intervene, Sirius tried to push Crookshanks away. Harry tries to tell himself that Sirius cares more about the cat than Harry’s parents, but I don’t think he succeeded in fooling himself. So he had two large clues that Sirius was not the heartless murderer he had been told.
One plot hole in the books is that when they caught Sirius Black they didn’t think, “A big Voldemort supporter!” and fill him full of Veritiserum.
Actually, J.K. Rowling answered this one in the FAQs on her website (paraphrasing here): veritaserum isn’t infallible. Wizards have a number of different defences against it, including transmutation and occlumency. Barty Crouch Sr. never thought of giving it to him because he was so mad with power at that point; had he, he would have declared that Sirius had defeated it through some trick when he claimed his innocence.
Snape, of course, is a master at Occlumency so it wouldn’t be much use using it on him.
It’s a literary flaw not to put such things in the book, which contain no clues that the potion isn’t all-powerful.
And even if Sirius could have lied under it, his very lies could have given them places to look.
having looked at the FAQ — the answer is that the wizard could use magic to prevent it.
Heck, they found out every time magic happened during the summer near Harry. What does it matter if you can enchant it? You would have to be able to hide that you did, as well.
(Perfectionists ‘R’ Us. 😉
The wizarding cops don’t seem to use veritaserum much– what, three of the memories Dumbledoor got were from folks that the wizards hadn’t bothered to investigate beyond “well, they coulda done it, and there aren’t any easy alternates hammering on my door”?
That said… I think the books can go both ways. My gut instinct for narative causalty says that Snape will be saved at the end– he’ll probably die right afterwards, though. I don’t have any good proof, but I have sucessfully guessed major plot points in each of the previous books. :^)
Snape is probably going to wriggle out onto the right side in the end.
I don’t know anyone who thinks Draco Malfoy won’t. 🙂
It’s a literary flaw not to put such things in the book, which contain no clues that the potion isn’t all-powerful.
Agreed.
The wizarding cops don’t seem to use veritaserum much– what, three of the memories Dumbledoor got were from folks that the wizards hadn’t bothered to investigate beyond “well, they coulda done it, and there aren’t any easy alternates hammering on my door”?
Since false memories had been planted in the people making them think they’d done it, veratiserum would have done nothing but confirm their supposed guilt.
My gut instinct for narative causalty says that Snape will be saved at the end– he’ll probably die right afterwards, though.
I think you’re right, on both counts. Some people think that he will kill Voldemort, but I think, from the prophecy among other things, that could only be the case under one condition: if Harry is indeed a secret horcrux and hasn’t been dehorcruxed yet. So Snape would only have killed Voldemort’s body: the last bit of his soul within Harry would have to be destroyed by Harry himself.
You know, if you look at http://www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com, he points out some evidence.
If you put it together, even if Dumbledore is dead, you could come up with a way that Snape could be justified that is not morally problematic. You have to mean Unforgivable Curses, the one that Snape (apparently) used does not cause people to fly through the air, and Snape can cast spells silently. If he did not kill him, but threw him from the tower, so as to look as if he killed him — Dumbledore actually succumbing to the poison — well, for proportionate cause, I think you can morally mislead people into thinking you have committed murder.
(We can hope therefore that she will not argue for the murder of an innocent man being right under some circumstances. )
You have to mean Unforgivable Curses, the one that Snape (apparently) used does not cause people to fly through the air, and Snape can cast spells silently. If he did not kill him, but threw him from the tower, so as to look as if he killed him
Well, if Snape had really refrained from killing Dumbledore, he would have dropped dead from not fulfilling the Unbreakable Vow.
Is there a time limit on the Unbreakable Vow?
Very unlikely, unless a time limit is placed in the wording of the Vow itself, which was not the case with Snape’s Vow.
Mary,
You may have already seen it, but I have blogged some of my own ideas about Snape’s motivations here. The comment box discussion below my post is also quite worth checking out.
I love to see more story on Harry and Ginny, quite romance and absolutely interesting
Humm. I didn’t find Harry convincingly in love with Ginny. An idyllic love was indeed fitting, rather than a contentious one, but lacking scenic possibility. In particular, the parting scene did not convince me that they really didn’t wanther happiness.)
Italics off.
blushes
I did put in the close italics.
Can we just finalize some points? (I know I’m coming into the discussion very late.)
There IS a remedy for Veritiserum, and, Mary, it is mentioned. And you could guess that it’s not all-powerful.
R. A. B. is Regulus Black.
There are still 5 Horcrukes left. (Yeah? The locket. Y’know where it is? It’s with Mundugness. Read ‘The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black’ again or something in that area of Book 5. A ‘heavy locket that none of them could open’ is mentioned. Horcrux, anyone?)
Snape is good and Dumbledore pleaded for him to kill him. Let’s face it, no matter what, Snape would have killed Dumbledore. If he was good…well, Dumbledore is a dead cookie anyway due to all those Death Eaters so it might as well be Snape to prevent Malfoy from becoming a Killer and give him a cast-iron post w/Voldy.
Ron vs. Rupert is simple. Slughorn didn’t find Ron very interesting and never bothered to learn his name.
Yes, Slughorn also calls Ron “Ralph.” “Rupert” is Slughorn’s mistake, not Rowling’s. She may have added “Rupert” to Slughorn’s mistakes for the sake of humor, though.
R. A. B. is Regulus Black.
While this is the reigning theory, it is not established fact.
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