666616?
That’s a question some folks are asking themselves right now. Actually, they’ve been asking that question for a while, but they just started asking it more insistently. Lemme ‘splain why:
Y’know those Oxyrhynchus manuscripts they’ve been reading lately? Well,
Of course, the press is already getting the story wrong. The above link, for example, goes to a story headlined:
Revelation! 666 is not the number of the beast (it’s a devilish 616)
I’m sorry, but we just can’t say this with that kind of certainty.
Y’see . . .
The discovery of a manuscript with the number 616 isn’t exactly news.
Over yonder to the left, for example, is a photo of manuscript P115 (sorry I can’t do the fancy Germanic P)–also found at Oxyrhynchus, incidentally–which also gives the number of the beast as 616–only we’ve had it for a long time.
What’s why if you look in the footnotes for Revelation 13 in your Bible (assuming it’s a modern translation), you’ll see a note saying that the number may be 616 instead of 666.
So all they’ve turned up now is yet another manuscript saying this. But if the evidence we had wasn’t decisive, adding one more manuscript to the pile won’t settle things.
Especially when the new manuscript is reportedly from the late 3rd century.
So it’s still undecided what the number originally was.
A favorite conjecture (though only a conjecture) is that the origin of the discrepancy has to do with the spelling of Nero’s name. The Emperor Nero fits the description of the beast really well, and it happens that his name adds up to 666 in Aramaic if you spell it NRWN QSR, which is one of the ways it was historically spelled. But it was also speled NRW QSR, which adds up to . . . you guessed it! 616. (N = 50 in Aramaic numbering.)
I am intrigued by something the Independent article mentions, though.
Y’see, there’s more than one Roman emperor who fits the description of the beast really well. The other is Gaius Caesar, better known to the world as Caligula.
Caligula did all kinds of beast-like things: He wanted people to worship him as a god, he tried to have a image of him put in the Jewish Temple, he had a "head wound" (blazingly intense headaches coupled with what may have been a nervous breakdown) from which he recovered and came back mad as a hatter, he slaughtered tons of people, etc., etc., etc.
He then was followed by the similarly beast-like Nero (with the milder Claudius in between them).
Many scholars, putting the book of Revelation in the A.D. 90s (which is much too late in my opinion) have looked at the revival of the beast and thought it’s based on the "Nero Revividus" rumors that circulated in the late first century. These were the ancient equivalent of the "Hitler ain’t dead" rumors that were found in the mid 20th century. According to Nero Revividus, Nero really didn’t die but was in hiding, waiting for his chance to come back and persecute everybody all over again.
Since I place Revelation earlier than that, before A.D. 70 (since it speaks as if the Jewish Temple is still standing), I’ve wondered whether the the revival of the beast isn’t something else. Caligula fits the beast so well–in some ways better than Nero–that I’ve wondered whether Revelation means us to understand that Nero is or will become a revived Caligula, or that there is an emperor yet to be elected (Nero, possibly Domitian) who will be a revived Caligula. In any event, I’ve wondered for some time whether Caligula isn’t much more central to the beast than interpreters generally credit.
So here’s the interesting thing that the Independent mentions:
The number 616 was applied to Caligula.
I did some checking, and folks have found a couple of ways that his name might equal 616. In Hebrew (and therefore Aramaic, which uses the same alphabet and numbering system), "Gaius Caligula Caesar" appears to equal 616. Also in Greek "Gaius Caesar" equals 616. Here’s the math:
ARAMAIC:
Gamal = 3
Simkath = 60
Qop = 100
Lamed = 30
Gamal = 3
Simkath = 60
Qop = 100
Simkath = 60
Resh = 200
Total = 616
GREEK:
Gamma = 3
Alpha = 1
Iota = 10
Omicron = 70
Sigma = 200
Kappa = 20
Alpha = 1
Iota = 10
Sigma = 200
Alpha = 1
Rho = 100
Total = 616
Interesting!
(Incidentally, I also thought the comment by satanist guy in the Observer article was also refreshingly honest.)
Oh, one other thing: Last go-round some folks asked what if the Oxyrhynchus papyri turned up different versions of existing books of Scripture? Would the Church accept them? As manuscript evidence, yes, as the case of P115 illustrates. As definitive replacements, no–the Observer’s attempt to canonize the new manuscript notwithstanding.
(CHT to the reader who e-mailed!)
Jimmy,
I found your article on the beast of Revalation timely, but I also need your help on a related question. Yesterday, a gentleman at our parish gave a lecture on the End Times, and although he started out by saying that no one knows when the end will come, and that fundamentalists such as LaHaye and the whole Left Behind series are not credible, he eventually made the point that most of the prophecies concerning the plagues, wars, and other catastrophies that signal the second coming of Christ have come true, or have appeared to come true. He specifically mentioned that he thought that the move to put computer chips in people (is there such a move to put computer chips in people?) is a good indication of the proof that the prophecy of 666 and the mark of the beast is coming true. He then mentioned the “global warming” phenomenon was solid proof that the environmental disasters predicted in Revalation (I have no idea of the specific verse, since he didn’t cite any) is coming true. He must have noticed that I was less than thrilled with his interpretation, and so he asked me what I thought. So, I told him that quite honestly, I thought it was far from certain that global warming has been established as a scientific fact, and that I would be wary about saying global warming was the fulfillment of Revalation prophecies. I also told him that I thought much of Revalation applied to the time of Nero, and that applying such prophecies of gloom and doom to now was not the best way to interpret the prophecies of Revelation. It went downhill from there, as he then stated that he did not base his views of the environment on his political affiliation (I never mentioned my political affiliation, but he did early on), and that he only relied on the overwhelming scientific evidence of global warming.
Was I correct in my view that all of these prophecies outlined in Revalation are not necessarily predictions that have to occur in order for Christ to return, and that most of these prophecies apply to the Roman persecutions under Nero? Was he correct in pointing to computer chips and global warming as signs that the prophecies of Revalation are coming true? Overall, I really resented the way in which he started out by saying no one knows when Christ was returning, but essentially left everyone to conclude that with all the prophecies coming true, there’s a good chance it’s going to be soon.
I would greatly appreciate your thoughts and any resources you can steer me towards to find out more about this.
God Bless,
Robert
Hmmm. My birthdate is 616.
I just had a bone graft in my jaw (ergo, head wound).
BEWARE!
Jimmy,
At some point, could you also address the whole Antichrist/Beast confusion? Popular culture always refers to “The Antichrist” when, I assume, they mean the beast. But I’m never clear on exactly what Antichrist is.
Also, may I be the first to welcome our new overlord Ruthann.
The idea that Caligula was the original Beast, and Nero would have been the revived Beast, makes a good deal of sense, I think. But I have a couple of minor issues:
1) Given that Caligula is not known for having really persecuted the Church, whereas Nero did, is Caligula really a more attractive candidate for identification as the Beast? (Though this is not so big a deal, I suppose, if we think of the two as “Beast Part 1” and “Beast Part 2”)
2) I don’t know about the Aramaic calculation – Caligula’s actual name was (as you indicated in your prior post on him) Gaius Julius Caesar Germanicus; and “Caligula” was a nickname which would most likely have been put (if anywhere) at the end of his given name. So I don’t see how it could have crept into the middle for the purpose of the calculation. Do you know if this sort of thing happened at all? Your Greek calculation, however, is still entirely possible: the abbreviation to Gaius Caesar would have been pretty common.
Supposedly the antichrist will be really into technology. Didn’t I read the other day where Ruthann said that she loved her Ipod and that technology RULZ? Hmmmm….
To back up your point, the footnote in the New American Bible on Rev. 13:18 notes that some manuscripts have 616, and that Caesar Nero in Latin fits to 616.
Forget the point (2) about the order of names. I wasn’t fully paying attention at the time of typing, and misunderstood your calculations. My mistake.
I always thought that the number of the beast was more of a teaching:
7 is the number of God, the number of completion, the ‘lucky’ number.
3 is the trinitarian number.
What could be more imperfect than 666?
6 just falls short of 7, it is imperfect, incomplete, unsatisfactory.
Listing three 6’s in a row makes a mockery of the trinitarian number by filling it with incompleteness.
So, mabye the number of the antichrist (or beast, whatever) is 616, however, 666 is just…more fitting. I’d prefer 666 anyway, just because of my statements above.
John beat me to the punch. “6 is less than 7” is an easier way to explain things than “if you take the alphabet that was in use on this particular day and stand on your head…”
I happen to believe that there will be a historical end to the age, and that bad things will happen before that historical end. Having said that, Matthew 24:6-8 makes it clear that we haven’t seen the bad things yet.
The thief-in-the-night warning is also relevant.
“Do those who say, Lo here or lo there are the signs of his coming, think to be too keen for him and spy his approach? When he tells them to watch lest he find them neglecting their work, they stare this way and that, and watch lest he should succeed in coming like a thief! Obedience is the one key of life.” George MacDonald
It is likely relevant that 666 suggests supreme imperfection. But the text says that someone with enough wisdom will be able to figure out who specifically it’s referring to. So it’s likely the sum of the letters in a name as well.
And I’m sticking with Nero, since it explains both the 666, which is the most likely reading based on the mss, and also the variant 616.
Thanks emperor.
Anyway, it might be possible that every age has its own particular ‘beast.’
Or, because we read the bible in the historical, escatological (I have no idea how to spell that), and spiritual manner, we have three different ‘beasts’:
Spiritual: The Devil, the most imperfect being ever, and a mockery of God and his angels.
Escatological: The Antichrist, the one who is to come before the end of the world.
Historical: Possibly Nero.
Hey! If you take MY number (719) and…subtract 100 (1 god…in the hundreds digit) and subtract 3 from the ones digit (3 parts in god)and you get 616…
719-100-3 = 616 (Egad! I’m th’ Antichrist!)
BUT!! IF you take 616…and add 2 trinities to the tens digit…you…get…666…..
719-100-3+60 = 666 (Egad! More proof!)
THEREFORE: I am the antichrist.
Sooo…I think you can take just about anything and mess it up to make it equal 616 or 666…
Simlar methods could be used for, say, Tony Blair…George Bush…Kim Jong II…Matt Damon…Julia Roberts…Peter Jackson…You name it, you can do it!
So…case in point.
The number 666 actually appears one OTHER place in Scripture: 1King 10:14.
It is the amount of gold Solomon gathered up in one year. Seems to fit the context of financial persecution in Revelation.
I think the real point here is to realize that our texts are a bit “frayed” for want of a better word, and going off half cocked on looney theories based on some little part of it is, at best theologically supect.
Another “good” example was Ronald Wilson Reagan (count the letters), who did miraculously recover from an assassination attempt. However, his death seems to have put a damper on the “Reagan is Antichrist” theory.
sorry, john, but 719-100-3+60 = 676, not 666. i suppose you are not the anitchrist we seek.
Hey cool site. I was reading your 616 article and found it quite interesting. I was trying to add up Ratzingers name the other day to try and make 666 lol, but I could only get 616 lol. Now I find out this could be the actual number of the beast!! hmmmmmmmm I used roman numerals and added up “Joseph Ratzinger, Pope Benedict VI” and it comes to 616. What a coincidence huh? I also found it interesting that Ratzingers parents names when translated to English were Joseph and Mary. hehe Well only time will tell!
If one were to use Hebrew gematria, whose letter values are such, A(0), B(2), C(100), D(4), E(0), F(80), G(3),H(5), I(10), J(10), K(20), L(30), M(40), N(50), O(0), P(80), Q(100), R(200), S(300), T(9), U(6), V(6), W(6), X(60), Y(10), Z(7), and you took the name Jesus, or Iesus, or Iesous, which are Greek translations for Jehoshua, all three names equal 616. I believe the true Messiah was a Hebrew and as such, has a Hebrew name. The name Jehoshua, as in strong’s concordance #2424 reference, to the name Jesus, is really Yahshua in Hebrew and Joshua in English. Hear that people, the real Saviour’s name is Yahshua, or in English, pronounced Joshua. The devil and his worker’s(builders), the Masons, have changed the name of our Saviour, to that of some pagan Greek deity. Truly the mark of the beast, I believe, involves worshipping the wrong names,for both the Father(Yahweh), and His Son(Yahshua), as well as following the teachings of the antichrist churches of Mystery Babylon, that teach the trinity doctrine(Yahshua is the Son of Yahweh, He is not Yahweh the Father and Creator), the end of the Law(ten commandments), and changed the Sabbath to Sunday, the pagan day of worship. All of Yahweh’s true children, will keep His commmandments, and have the testimony of His only begotten Son, Yahshua. “Come out of Babylon all my People”. The word anti can mean in place of, or instead of. I believe the name of Jesus, is the “antichrist”, that we are warned to reject.The name, and the false teachings, and following of the traditions of men, that go along with that name. It is the strong delusion which will deceive most people, who will think they are worshipping the true Saviour, and God. Those who love Yahweh must love truth, and be seekers and followers of the truth. 1JOHN 4:2,3. Yahshua has come in the flesh. A flesh and blood human being. Not some mystical part God, part Man super being.
+J.M.J+
[sarcasm]
Wow, I just *love* those last two posts on this thread!
[/sarcasm]
In the first, “Tim” tries to discover the numerical value in Roman numerals for the English version of both the current Pope’s baptismal name and his Papal name (Whew!) Unfortunately for him, even after correcting for his mistake in calling the current pope “Benedict VI” rather than Benedict XVI, my count comes up with the number 619, not 616:
Joseph = 1 (the J is equivalent to “I” in Latin)
Ratzinger = 1
Pope = 0
Benedict = 601
XVI = 16
601 + 16 + 1 + 1 = 619
(Why even bother to include the word “Pope”, which has no numerical value in Roman numerals? It adds nothing whatsoever to the equation.)
Even if we leave out the Holy Father’s baptismal name and just look at “Benedict XVI,” we still come up with 617. As they say, “Close, but no cigar”. Of course, it would be more proper to use the Latin “Benedictus XVI,” but then the “u”, which is equal to “v” in Latin, would add 5 more to the equation, making it 621. Sorry, no dice.
The second poster, “eric d” (evidently a “Sacred Name” believer), uses Hebrew gematria on the Greek versions of Our Lord’s Name. I think both Tim and eric have missed a basic rule here: You must figure the name’s numerical value in the same language in which the name is written. That’s why we look for the numerical value of the Aramaic letters of the Aramaic spelling of Caesar Nero’s name, not the Latin or Greek spelling.
In Jesu et Maria,
+J.M.J+
After a closer look at eric d.’s post, it’s just full of errors. Here’s just a few:
>>>the name Jesus, or Iesus, or Iesous, which are Greek translations for Jehoshua
No, only Iesous is the Greek transliteration for the Aramaic (not Hebrew) Yeshua. Iesus is Latin while Jesus is English and also Spanish (technically Jesús).
>>>I believe the true Messiah was a Hebrew and as such, has a Hebrew name.
Well, yes and no; He was certainly Jewish but His Name was technically the Aramaic Yeshua, not the Hebrew Yehoshua.
>>>The devil and his worker’s(builders), the Masons, have changed the name of our Saviour, to that of some pagan Greek deity
No, the Apostles transliterated it into the Greek Iesous before the end of the first century, when writing and preaching to Greek-speakers. The Masons only came into existence in 1717, and He’d been called Iesous/Iesus/Jesus for seventeen centuries by then. Also, there’s no “pagan Greek deity” names Iesous.
>>>Truly the mark of the beast, I believe, involves worshipping the wrong names,for both the Father(Yahweh), and His Son(Yahshua),
Where’d you get that interpretation of Apocalyse ch. 13? Doesn’t fit the text or the history.
>>>as well as following the teachings of the antichrist churches of Mystery Babylon, that teach the trinity doctrine(Yahshua is the Son of Yahweh, He is not Yahweh the Father and Creator)
Trinitarians don’t believe that Jesus is the Father. A common error.
>>> the end of the Law(ten commandments), and changed the Sabbath to Sunday, the pagan day of worship.
Sunday wasn’t THE pagan day of worship; the pagans didn’t have a particular day of rest/worship as the Jews did. They assigned all the days to pagan deities, including the seventh day which was sacred to Saturn – hence Saturday.
>>>The word anti can mean in place of, or instead of. I believe the name of Jesus, is the “antichrist”, that we are warned to reject.
Then I guess we should reject the Greek New Testament, which calls Him “Iesous”.
>>>Yahshua has come in the flesh. A flesh and blood human being. Not some mystical part God, part Man super being.
Jesus isn’t “part God, part Man”. You must be thinking of Hercules (now there’s a “pagan Greek deity”!).
In Jesu et Maria,
Prepare to be Shocked
THE TRUTH ABOUT CHRISTIANITY
We all know that they have been digging up bones of people who are in the hundreds of thousands of years old. The whole while, people are believing that Adam and Eve were the first two people. You can disprove this. If you count the lineage between Adam and Jesus and add the two thousand years from Jesus to present day, you will arrive at a bit more than 6000 years. This timeframe has been proven false by modern day science. Christianity is a lie. Why do so many people fall victim to it?
It looks like this:
Adam – 130 years, and then came…
Seth – 105 years, and then came…
Enos – 90 years, and then came…
Cainan – 70 years, and then came…
Mahalaleel – 65 years, and then came…
Jared – 162 years, and then came…
Enoch – 65 years, and then came…
Methuselah – 187 years, and then came…
Lamech – 182 years, and then came…
Noah – 500 years, and then came…
Shem – 100 years, and then came…
Arphaxad – 35 years, and then came…
Salah – 30 years, and then came…
Eber – 34 years, and then came…
Peleg – 30 years, and then came…
Reu – 32 years, and then came…
Serug – 30 years, and then came…
Nahor – 29 years, and then came…
Terah – 70 years, and then came…
Abraham – 100 years, and then came…
And so on and so forth…
The Bible says Humanity points back to 4004 B.C. I’m writing this in 2007 A.D. That’s a total of 6011 years. Not withstanding that that the calendars have changed as well. Noah lived in a calendar system where each season was two years. The coming in of a season and the going out of a season. He was about 100 of our years old when he died. So it would actually be less than 6011 years. Some would say that it never says that Adam and Eve were the first two people. That the church is clearly mispreaching or misinterpreting. Let me show you though.
1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
These are New Testament Scriptures that were written by people who were taught directly by Jesus himself. The first is agreed to be written by Ezra and the second is said to be written by Paul.
Now the question might be, “Why would someone who claimed to be god the son and appeared to be sinless put a message into the world that would go out and deceive all the people?”
Do you pay attention to christian prophecy today? The bible and the church claim that the Antichrist would claim to be god, appear to be sinless, and put a message into the world that the world would be taken by.
This doesn’t mean that there is no life after death. There still were reportedly supernatural occurrences throughout history. Just because you know that Christianity is a lie doesn’t mean that people don’t live after they die. It has been proven that certain predictions were made in the Bible, Qur’an, and other religious books that are startlingly accurate. This only means that religions were somehow designed to deceive and that supernatural events are being used to lure people into them.
This can be proven by Psalm 22:16,18 written 1000 before christ. Something supernatural happened. Still there are lies.
——————————————————————————–
Other Names And Faces Of The Antichrist
Ba Neb Tetet – Ancient Egyptian God that Claimed that he was a Scapegoat that would one day Sacrifice himself to stop the GODS (plural) from waring. Here he taught that there was more than one god. He did so in a time where conversion was about to occur. Just before monotheism in Egypt. The word Ba in the Egyptian language means, “Spirit”, or “Soul”. It would enter peoples bodies and look like it was casting out demons that would hold a persons body in one position for sometimes even years. This would look to the people around the victim as though they were healed from a disability.
Shiva – Hindu representation of Ba or The Holy Ghost. Is one of five other deities that make up the Smartism belief. Hypothetically could be one of the five alphas. There is a symbol that the Pentecostal religion keeps sacred called the pentagram. When turned upside down represents the falling of the five alphas. In the Christian religion the Five Alphas are The Father, The Son, The Spirit, Jehovah (Yahovah), and YHWY(Yahvey). In the Hindu Smartism beliefs there are five main alpha like deities. These are Shiva, Vishnu, Devi, Ganesha, and Surya.
The Mahdi – An Islamic or Muslim clone of the works and life of Jesus that is said by the Christian point of view to be the Antichrist or of Satan. The two religions were pitted against each other by design. Jesus is a prophet in the Islamic holy book the Qu’ran. Yet in the Christian holy book the Bible he is the creator of the universe or God. This set the two religions against each other as they call each other blasphemers. The Islamic claim that the Christians are blaspheming by deifying one of their prophets, Jesus. The Christians are saying that the Islamic are intent to prove that Jesus wasn’t God and therefore the lie being blasphemy against the Christian God. This peaks at a moment of time where The Mahdi shows up and claims that he created the Universe. Confirming to Christians that Islam is an evil religion that is designed to replace their God. What people won’t know is that The Mahdi and Jesus are the same intervention. They are both the Antichrist.
Christ – A Christian Deity that claims that he Created the Universe and a Host of other worlds. Also known as Jesus, Esus, The Holy Spirit, and The Father. This was the Antichrists fulfilling of the prophecy of Ba Neb Tetet. Christ was slain on a cross, called himself a Scapegoat, and promised to bring peace to the world. The christian prophecy says that the one who would be the Antichrist will claim to be sinless, claim to be god, and put a written message into the world that would deceive all the inhabitants of the earth. The message of deception has been found and we now know what it is.
THATS RIGHT, JESUS HIMSELF WAS A FACE OF THE ANTICHRIST!!!
——————————————————————————–
All the religions of monotheistic type were perpetrated by the same intervention. There is much evidence to support this claim. They all have an unforgivable sin. they all have a law structure that determines that people are to be put to death for petty crimes. The monotheistic holy books all have a claim of an adam and eve type creation or beginning. Look into the various religions and you will see that the same intervention is behind them all. It is clear that THIS IS AN ATTACK AGAINST HUMANITY. Furthermore the various religions are at war with each other. This was done by design.
Donald —
If you take some time to browse through Catholic.com, you will see that all your so-called “proof” can be quite easily refuted.
This article, for example, or this one.
Donald —
If you take some time to browse through Catholic.com, you will see that all your so-called “proof” can be quite easily refuted.
This article, for example, or this one.
Also, Donald, if you’d care to browse through DA RULZ, you’ll see that you have violated #3.
“There is much evidence to support this claim.”
None of which did you manage to cite.
BTW, your ignorance of what the Catholic Church actually teaches is enormous.
Pope Benedict = 6
XV1 = 16
616
For me, the fact that there are variant textual traditions (666 or 616) suggest that the number of the beast is intended to refer to a person living at the time the original manuscript was written. Not to someone in the author’s future.
From the pages of Prof Felix Just SJ:
Fun collection of beastly numbers (I like 29A – the hexadecimal number of the Beast).
a more academic guide to apocalyptic literature
Thanks Leo 😉