Gay Parents Threedux: Reader Roundup

First, I want to thank everyone who commented in the second of the gay "parents" comment threads. Some of y’all made truly outstanding points while I was at work–so much so that I was tempted not to do a reader roundup, y’all had done such a great job. I’d like to quote and praise you all individually, but then this post would go on for so long that nobody would read it and would miss the praise anyway, so I hope a generic, up-front collective "Kudos!" will do. 🙂

Now . . .

Down yonder, readers write:

READER A: So long as the kids’ parents agree to keep their sexuality out of
the classroom (i.e. only have one of them be seen publicly with the kid
on campus), then I don’t see where they should be penalized.

I think that we agree here that if the homosexuality of the "parents" was something that could be kept out of the classroom, so that the only child being harmed by knowledge of it was the child in question, then this would fall into the area of a covert sin that does not pose a scandal to the other children in the school. Under those (magical) circumstances, I wouldn’t be opposed to letting the kid in the class.

As other readers are about to point out, there are virtually insuperable problems with the idea of keeping this a secret among a class of five year olds. I would add the further point that, so far as I can tell, it seems to be obviously not happening in this school. The homosexuals, so far as I know, are making no secret of their relationship to each other, and the kids are aware of it. (Though if I am wrong on this point, I invite correction from those in a position to know.)

READER B: How could you possibly enforce such a requirement? Would it even be
legal for the school to ask the parents to abide by such a requirement.
I can just see the ACLU jumping on that one.

Even if the parents aren’t seen, as Jimmy points out, the face will
come out as part of the natural interactions between children of this
age during talk about their ‘family’. How do you prevent that? Ask the
child to agree to not talk about it?

I don’t know if this would be illegal or not. Perhaps some of the Southern Appeal lawyer folk who read the blog could tell us that. I totally agree, however, that even if the parents tried to keep their status a secret, it would fail. Five year olds are nowhere near tight lipped enough to reliably keep something like that to themselves, and they’re going to be asking questions about each others mommies that would, even if the kid could keep his second daddy a secret, put him in the proximate occasion of the sin of lying.

READER C: But, the line still has to be drawn somewhere. I mean, is it only
gay and nudist parents that cannot have their children attend Catholic
schooling? What about divorced and remarried Catholics kids…I could
just as easily see one become an apologist for divorce in the classroom
as for homosexual activity? Or how about the child who’s father is
addicted to pornography…couldn’t you see a child say, "My daddy looks
at pictures like that all the time and mommy says it is OK since he is
just looking"? I think I agree with you, Jimmy, but how are we to draw
the line here? Or are we just reacting this way because it is a hot
button issue while divorce and remarriage is now commonplace (although
destructive and scandalous as well)?

I agree that the line has to be drawn somewhere, and the place I would tend to draw it is: any sin that kids of a particular age shouldn’t know about and that would have a high probability of coming to their attention. Homosexual "parents" clearly falls over that line. So does public nudism. So do polygamous relationships (not serial polygamy; I mean the real deal).

I wouldn’t put private use of pornography, as tragic as that is, in the same category, or divorce and remarriage without annulment. Those sins are not nearly as likely to come to the attention of the children in the class. If, however, the parents were of a mind to make these sins known to the children of the class (e.g., by bringing pornography to get-to-know-Billy’s-father day or complaining at parent-child gatherings about the Church’s oppressive annulment requirement that keeps them from really being married in the Church’s eyes) then I would put them over the line.

READER D: The presence of a nudist in front of a class of kindergarten-aged
children necessarily calls attention to itself in a way that the
presence of a homosexual may not. Unless you are prepared to define
some physical characteristics that are endemic to homosexuality I fail
to see how your analogy can be carried much further.

I agree. The analogy was deliberately more extreme than the homosexual "parents" situation in order to show that there are at least some situations in which the child must have his religious education taken care of in another manner. After establishing that point, it could be argued whether homosexuality is one such situation.

MORE D: Let’s consider another analogy. Suppose we have a child that has
been born out of wedlock and is at present only being taken care of by
his mother. The situation of a child having no daddy is just as likely
to become apparent to the rest of the student body as the case of a
child having two. So should this child also be denied admission?

No. The "no daddy" situation is common throughout history. Often fathers get killed or die of an illness or vanish for other reasons that are incomprehensible to young children. It’s sad, but it doesn’t pose a moral scandal to the kids under most circumstances. The odds of young kids becoming aware that Billy’s parents weren’t married at the time he was born are low.

READER E (RESPONDING TO READER C): Unfortunately divorce is commonplace and children will likely be
exposed to it no matter what the school policy is. Kids likeley can
simply no longer be shielded form this (with a 50% divorce rates even
among Catholics, it’s likely 1/2 the kids in the school have divorced
parents). Fortunately, Homosexual Unions are not yet so widespread that
this is the case. Children still can be shielded from this and should
be. Under what you seem to be saying, because we can’t shield the from
everything, we shouldn’t shield them from anything. Does that seem
right? We (and the school in question) should do what we can, all the
time realizing that we live in an imperfect world were our ability to
do so will be limited by the sinful nature of all and that the lines we
attempt to draw won’t be perfect.

Excellent point. We cannot allow the facts that we (a) can’t shield kids from all dangers and (b) can’t draw lines perfectly to deter us from drawing reasonable lines to shield kids from what we can protect them from. Put it another way: Just because I can’t keep all dangerous objects away from Billy all the time, that’s no reason I shouldn’t keep the gun cabinet locked.

READER F: You are going to run across many, many situations you have not
already considered here that is going to occur in a school situation
with various kids who have various backgrounds. And I am speaking as an
educator who has taught in the public school system for 6 years and
taught and volunteered in a Catholic school for 3 years. All I can say
is homeschooling is now the only option for us.

Reader F, you deserve an "A"! Both the public and Catholic school systems are so problematic that (barring special circumstances) I view homeschooling as the strongly preferred option for my family, should I have one.

READER G: Also, don’t leave the "parents" out in the cold. Remember that, "God
scourges everyone whom he loves". Use this as a point of instruction to
bring *all* of the parents into line with the gospel rather than
singling out a parent that lives at the cultural fringe.

Yes, and preaching the gospel to individuals can involve excluding them from the society of the Church in order to awaken them to the dimensions of their sins. This is the point of the penalty of excommunication, for example, and St. Paul is very firm on this in 1 Corinthians. It’s a "tough love" approach, but sometimes it is necessary. One harms not only the children in the school but the homosexual "parents" as well if one communicates to them that their behavior is acceptable, or even tolerable, in the Catholic community.

MORE G: Remember that we all have absolute moral freedom. Nothing is
preventing these parents, all of them, from changing; nothing but
themselves.

I’d be a little careful, here. The homosexual "parents" can certainly split up and lead chaste lives, though they may or may not be able to get shed of their same-sex attractions.

READER D AGAIN: The thing about this case that I find especially galling is the
attempt to establish homosexuality as a special sin deserving of unique
consequences in a way that other sexual sins are not.

This is not about the sexual activity of the same-sex couple. It
can’t be because they have declined to make any public comment and
their personal situation is not known. Their apologetical moment came
and they declined it. Nevertheless their reticence is still not good
enough. After all, they are homosexuals. It’s not about what they do,
it’s about what they are.

It isn’t about what they are. It isn’t even about their private sinful behavior. It’s about what they are doing publicly, which is to present themselves to the world as "parents" and try to inject themselves into the life of a school at an age-level where children should not know about these matters and will inevitably learn about them.
Also, as the above indicates, there are other sexual sins that have a similar public dimension (full-time nudity, simultaneous polygamy) that would be similarly problematic, so this isn’t singling out homosexuality. Any sin that would pose a scandal to the kids would fall on the other side of the line to my mind.

July 26, 2004 Show

LISTEN TO THE SHOW.

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Highlights:

  • Are mixed marriages considered good or bad in the Church?
  • How about individuals advocating separation of church and state sitting in on religious services to catch people pushing political agendas?
  • When did the chapter and verse divisions in the Bible come into use and who introduced them?  Longest chapter in the Bible?
  • Were James who spoke in Acts 15 and James the Apostle different people?
  • Are there any historical arguments of societies which have fallen into disarray because of homosexuality?
  • What happens during the Mass regarding Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross?
  • Are there moral types of stem cell research?
  • Who is the Apostle "whom Jesus loves" in the Gospel of John?
  • Were Adam and Eve real people?
  • What does it mean to consecrate your life and how is that done?
  • What would be the state of a marriage done by an ex-priest?
  • Is anything other than a white cloth allowed to be placed on the casket during a funeral?
  • Is it immoral to benefit from a previous immoral act, e.g. stem cell lines which have already been derived?

A Special Note Of Thanks

I just wanted to put up a special note to thank those who have been e-mailing me and participating in the blog.

I especially want to thank those who are volunteering their time for the radio volunteer program. I’ve been getting lots of good highlight lists, and will be putting them up promptly.

I also want to thank those who have sent links to things I may want to blog. These are much appreciated, though I may not be able to use them all.

I also want to thank those who have e-mailed in questions. At the moment I have had a rush of these that it’s taking me a while to get to, so thanks for your patience. I’ll get to as many as I can.

I also want to thank the other bloggers who link me. It’s a vote of confidence that is much appreciated.

Finally, I want to thank everyone who comments. Your comments are the feedback I get on the blog and whether you like it and find it interesting. Reading them is the reward I get for investing the effort to write the blog.

Thanks again, and God bless, y’all!

What Is It With AP These Days?

Okay, a little lunchtime blogging due to a special situation going on today.

I don’t know what’s going on with the Associated Press these days. They seem congenitally unable to Get The Story Right.

TAKE THIS STORY, FOR INSTANCE.

It leads one to believe that Spain’s national conference of bishops has endorsed the idea that condoms should be used to help prevent the spread of AIDS. As a result, it has a lot of folks alarmed, wondering what’s up with that.

But here’s the deal: That article (on CNN’s web site) is an edited-down version of

THIS ARTICLE.

Or perhaps that one is an edited-up version of the one that CNN has.

Anyway . . .

The key sentence in the longer article is this:

Martinez Camino met the health minister as a representative of the church, though it was unclear whether he was expressing the official view of the church.

No, duh!!!

Listen: A person is Not Qualified To Be A Religion Reporter On Catholic Issues if he doesn’t know that something said by a single spokesman IS NOT AN OFFICIAL STATEMENT OF THE CHURCH. The only way policies get changed on the part of a national conference is if the conference as a whole takes a vote on it and issues a paper stating the policy change. Some offhand remark in front of the press by a spokesman of some kind does not a policy change make.

It doesn’t even matter if the spokesman is the president of the conference. The way Church law is structured, you have to have the whole conference take a vote or it isn’t policy. Think of it like Congress: It doesn’t matter what some senator’s aide says, or even what the president of the Senate says, unless Congress as a whole votes, it ain’t policy (or law).

Once again, the press gets it wrong.

Now, on a side note, if there really is an effort on the part of the Spanish bishops to change this then all I can say is los obispos son locos and we’ll have an interesting showdown with the Vatican.

UPDATE: THE VATICAN STRIKES BACK.

UPDATEUPDATE: SPAIN DENIES.

Gay Parents Redux

A reader writes:

Dear Mr. AikinAkin (spell it "Aikin" and you won’t be able to get to the blog 😉

With the greatest respect and appreciation for everything that you do for the Catholic Faith and evangelization,

Thanks! I appreciate the compliment!

I respectfully disagree with your opinion regarding the Orange County school that has children with homosexual "parents." 

Okay. I operate on the principle that not everybody has to agree with me.

Please keep in mind that I can’t remember a time where I have ever previously disagreed with you.  Also keep in mind that I am a "conservative" Catholic that attempts to follow the Magisterium teaching completely without exception.   I am in avid opposition to same-sex unions or marriage and I have been active in my diocese prodding pastors to speak out against such unions.

Good for you!

Here are my thoughts on what you posted on your blog:

I don’t believe you should  draw a line on the children because of the sins of their parents – ever. It is not right. It is not just. It sets terrible precedent. It appears exclusive and unwelcoming. It is in opposition to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

For example, what if one of the children had a parent that had committed murder? That would certainly be number 20 or so on the scale. We could not visit the murderer in prison but refuse to  educate his child.  You can’t compromise the Gospel.

But – you can oppose the compromising of the Gospel by priests, sisters, and Bishops – that is where the problem is – go after the true problem.

I do understand that this situation is different in light of the promotion of the lifestyle by the homosexual couple and that they may be in teaching situations.  That is a problem – but it is a separate problem – it has to do with what is being taught, by whom, and how.  To me, it is the same problem that liberal, dissenting pastors provide.   In both cases, scandal is present and it must be remedied.  When I was faced with a severely dissenting pastor, I did not demand alll parishoners that agree with him vehemently leave.  I went to the Diocese and strongly made the case for truth being taught.

Once again, good for you.

I also believe in dealing with the problem where it is, but I think that in this case there is a problem not only with those in the Church who do not speak out against homosexuality but also a problem created in the classroom by the situation of having two homosexual "parents" putting a kid in a class of sexual innocents who shouldn’t be confronted with the existence of homosexuality at their age.

Let’s set the issue of homoexual parents aside and do a thought experiment involving a different and more extreme situation:

Suppose that there are two parents (male and female) who are nudists and who insist on walking around all day long–in public–buck nekkid. Suppose also that they live in Southern California and that the crazy laws of the state permit them to do so (as well as its warm climate). Is it their child’s fault that he has parents who are nudists? No. But, whenever he interacts with other children, he’s going to have a lot of them asking him about the fact that his parents are nudists.

As a result, he’s going to go back to his parents and ask them what to tell the other kids. They’ll tell him that being a nudist is an okay thing and that he should tell the other kids that. He thus, little by little, is going to become an apologist for public nudity, even though he may or may not be a nudist himself.

Now this family decides to put their kid in a Catholic school’s kindergarten class. What is the school to do? The other kids are going to become aware of the fact that the kid’s parents are nudists. They’re going to see it when they pick him up from school. They’re going to ask questions about his family and, kindergartners being terrible at keeping secrets, this fact is going to come out. The kid will then (a) be picked on and (b) be questioned and (c) respond by launching into nudism apologist mode.

Kids at this age level should not be faced with a knowledge of nudism, much less see people who insist on picking up kids from school while nude (or playing a role taking care of the class while nude). They should not have to deal with a nudist apologist in their midst at this age. They shouldn’t at this age even be aware of nudism.

It therefore seems to me that the school would not only be reasonable but required not to admit this kid under these circumstances. The basis for doing this is the fact that the school has to take into account the interests of all its students. It cannot allow the interest of a single student (having a Catholic education) to outweight the interests of all the other students (having a Catholic education and not being exposed to the reality of nudism and nudist apologists).

The thing to do would be to not admit the kid and to arrange for him to get instruction in the Catholic faith through some other means (e.g., private tutoring).

I think that if a school did make the mistake of admitting such a child then the parents who have kids there would be (a) entirely justified in protesting and (b) entirely justified in yanking their kids out of class to prevent them from being exposed to nudists and nudist apologists.

If you’re willing to go with me this far (leaving the above described conditions of the thought experiment in place) then it seems you should be willing to admit that there are at least some circumstances (and we can make the above conditions even more extreme  if needed; say, nudists who insist on engaging in the marital act in public when they are picking up their kid from school and who are allowed by the state to do this) in which the most prudent thing to do is to not admit the kid to school and to take care of his religious education in another way.

That’s not compromising the gospel. It’s upholding the gospel by not
allowing its message to be watered down for a whole class (or a whole
school) by the flagrant scandal of people living in open defiance of
basic gospel values.

If you agree to that principle it could be seen as a judgment call as to whether having two homosexual parents fall into that category.

In my opinion, it does.

Spectral Analysis

From John O’Sullivan of the Chicago Sun-Times:

What makes this internal paralysis so dangerous to the Democrats is that they are even more out of touch with ordinary Americans than they or the pundits realize. There are two political spectrums in America today — an elite spectrum and a popular spectrum.

The elite spectrum has the Democrats in the center, the voters on the center-right, and the Republicans on the far right. No one ever outlines this structure of opinion as clearly and explicitly as that. But it is regularly implied by the establishment media or centrist pundits in the course of their commentaries.

The popular spectrum of political opinion has the Democrats and liberal elites on the left, the Republicans in the middle, and the voters further out to their right.

Of course, not all issues fit into the popular spectrum comfortably. On some economic issues, for instance, the elite spectrum represents reality better. Thus, the voters are instinctively closer to the Democrats than to the Republicans on Social Security — which is why the congressional Republicans are distinctly nervous about the reform program proposed by the Bush administration.

What makes the Democrats’ task of recovery so difficult is that many of the issues that most concern voters — for instance, national security and gay marriage — fit into the popular spectrum better. But because the Democrats think in terms of the elite spectrum — and are encouraged to do so by elite institutions such as Hollywood and the media — they never realize their vulnerability.

READ MORE.

July 22, 2004

LISTEN TO THE SHOW.

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Highlights:

  • Could the perception of Purgatory for some people for some people involve a conscious experience of the disintegration of the body?
  • Did the original King James version of the Bible have 80 books?
  • If the priest does not believe that he is changing the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ are we still receiving the Eucharist from him?
  • The New Testament seems to imply both that accepting Grace is our choice and that only God decides who has an open heart… what is the explanation?  Does everyone on earth get actual Grace?
  • What is the official Catholic position on the gift of Tongues?
  • Is it true that on Judgement Day we will be judged with the same degree of forgiveness we show others?  Are we also to forgive persons who have committed truly evil acts?
  • How do we distinguish between worshipping God and honoring Mary and the Saints when we pray?
  • Where does the word "Sunday" come from?
  • When did the Church decide that it was okay for women to fulfill certain liturgical roles in the Church?  Does the Church nullify certain Scriptural passages in doing this?
  • How unusual was it for a young man of Jesus’ age to be "teaching" during the finding of Jesus in the Temple?
  • How do Seventh Day Adventists regard the change from the Julian to the Gregorian Calendar, i.e. did it change the day of the week?
  • Was Mary Magdalen a prostitute or an adultress?  What’s the difference between the two?
  • Is it a sin to go shopping on Sundays?  What if that shopping is entertainment?
  • Why does Jesus tell Mary Magdalen not to touch him after the Resurrection, but then encourage Thomas to touch him later?

God Hates That!

A reader writes:

Somebody’s been quoting this passage on a board I frequent often (www.bolt.com): Proverbs 6:16-19 "These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: {17} A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, {18} An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, {19} A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."

Is it then proper to say that god Hates.

Also, What is youre take on the Hebrew notion of Hatred.  I am aware that it doesn’t have certain kinds of catagorically discriptive terms.  So if you have a first and a second choice, they may be discribed as "first and last" or if you like one option more than the other one may be "loved" and the other "hated".

Any thoughts.  Is it correct to say "God Hates,"?

Since Scripture uses the term in regard to God, it is possible to say that in some sense God hates. The question is: What sense? (Or senses.)

Since God is Love, and since he is very different from us, it is not to be expected that God hates in the same way we do. As Aquinas notes, God doesn’t have passions the way we do.

In an obvious sense, to say that God hates something (because it is evil, e.g., shedding innocent blood) may be taken to mean that it is inconsistent with his goodness.

In other cases, to say that God hates something (e.g., "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated") or that God wishes something to be hated (e.g., "If anyone comes to me but does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters, and yes, even his own life–he cannot be my disciple") then it may be understood that he prefers something to it (Jacob rather than Esau) or that something else is to be preferred to it (having one’s first loyalty to Jesus rather than to any other).

It may also be possible to find places where divine justice is said to be administered in terms of God’s hatred of sin. In these cases, Aquinas would tell us (though I don’t have the reference handy) that God is willing a non-moral evil (e.g., pain) for purposes of a greater good (upholding justice, correcting behavior).

What cannot be said is that God commits the sin of hatred, i.e., willing evil against someone for its own sake.

As far as the Hebrews’ conception of hatred (which at times may have been expressed in Aramaic or even Greek rather than Hebrew), it may have been broader than ours, at least in the sense that the term could be used in senses that we today would never use it in English (e.g., Jesus’ statement about hating your family, though this may have been as shocking to its original audience as it is to us, so a broader understanding is not clear from that verse alone).

I am dubious of our ability at this late date to come up with a refined, carefully nuanced understanding of the meaning of the relevant Hebrew vocabulary. When you don’t have speakers of the dialect alive to question about what terms do and do not include (and biblical Hebrew is not identical to modern Hebrew, so the Israelis don’t count) it is difficult to reconstruct the exact parameters of words.

I suspect that the ancient Hebrews had a largely anthropomorphic understanding of God’s hatred, and the distinctions we would now draw are based on the revelation Christ gave us, as meditated upon throughout the centuries of Christian reflection.