The Population of Hell

A reader writes:

Do you think we can know for sure that there are people in hell (not that we know which particular people are there)?

The current Roman Catholic teaching seems to be that we don’t know if there are people in Hell (a la Hans Urs von Balthasar).

I wouldn’t say that Catholic teaching is that we don’t know. The situation has been muddied a bit recently, but as far as I can tell the Church’s official position is still that there are definitely people in hell, it just doesn’t claim to know which individuals are. The most recent, highly authoritative statement is still that of the Catechism, and it gives no hint of the “maybe everybody gets saved” position.

To clarify matters, consider the following positions:

1. Nobody is in hell.

2. *Maybe* nobody is in hell.

3. Some people are in hell.

4. Some people are in hell and we know who some of them are.

5. Boatloads of people are in hell.

6. Everybody is in hell except for the tiny remnant that *I* belong to.

7. Everybody without exception is in hell; Jesus died for nothing.

From what I can tell, the Church is willing to sign off on position #3, though not precluding the other positions listed, except for #s 1 and 7, which are right out. Positions #s 2-6 seem to be permitted (or at least tolerated), as evidenced by the fact that the pope named von Balthasar (a holder of position #2) as a cardinal and the CDF has allowed the Feeneyites (holders of position #6) to remain as Catholics without being subject to theological discipline and even (in the case of one group) being allowed to raise money as a Catholic organization.

As far as what *I* think, I’m an exponent of position #4. I think that we know at least two people who are in hell: Judas and one of the early Roman emperors, most likely Nero. This is because Jesus says that it would have been better for Judas if he had not been born (and if he ended up in heaven then that clearly wouldn’t be the case) and because Revelation speaks of the Beast (most plausibly identified as the Emperor Nero) being thrown into the lake of fire. The fact that these two gents are in hell means that *some* people are in hell, and thus position #2 is wrong.

In fact, I think that the von Balthasar position is hopelessly wrong for a number of reasons, and if I were pope it would be swiftly ejected from the permitted opinion list. If you like, I’d be hapy to explain why, but at the moment it’s getting late. 🙂

Author: Jimmy Akin

Jimmy was born in Texas, grew up nominally Protestant, but at age 20 experienced a profound conversion to Christ. Planning on becoming a Protestant seminary professor, he started an intensive study of the Bible. But the more he immersed himself in Scripture the more he found to support the Catholic faith, and in 1992 he entered the Catholic Church. His conversion story, "A Triumph and a Tragedy," is published in Surprised by Truth. Besides being an author, Jimmy is the Senior Apologist at Catholic Answers, a contributing editor to Catholic Answers Magazine, and a weekly guest on "Catholic Answers Live."

33 thoughts on “The Population of Hell”

  1. Steve,
    [NOTE: It appears that in answering your post, I accidentally overwrote it. SORRY! Still learning this new interface. Here’s my response, anyway . . . ]
    This was why I said that the matter had been muddied a bit recently. I hadn’t seen Dulles’s follow-up, but I’d heard the reports of the two versions of JPII’s talk, one with the words in it and one with the words cut out, but hadn’t been able to verify the latter. Didn’t want to introduce the subject of the address without having run the two versions story to ground, though even if there was only the first version, it wouldn’t change Church teaching. Papal audiences are among the least authoritative forms of papal utterances and aren’t meant to trump what’s in the Catechism.

  2. “This is because Jesus says that it would have been better for Judas if he had not been born (and if he ended up in heaven then that clearly wouldn’t be the case)”
    I always had trouble with this particular passage…is hell really worse than non-existence? And if it is…why did God create those people who are destined to go to hell?
    And if hell is worse than non-existence, why doesn’t God just annihilate those souls in hell rather than letting them suffer the torment forever and ever?

  4. Here’s a question I’ve been dying for some insight on: Is Adam (or Eve) in hell? Do we know anything about their status?

  5. Billy,
    Perhaps it is significant Jesus says it is better for Judas to have never existed. That is, God always chooses existence over non-existence, because existence is better, even if His creatures ruin it for themselves.
    Of course I think the question still hangs in the air, if God’s love wants what is best for us, why not annihilate the damned?

  6. Though it doesn’t fall within the pale of Church Teaching I regard Our Lady’s warning that “More souls go to Hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason.” sufficient evidence that there are most surely souls in Hell and furthermore that Hell exists.

  7. Jimmy,
    You mentioned Judas and Nero. What do you think about Pharaoh, specifically St. Paul’s words in Romans 9:17-22?
    17 For the scripture saith to Pharao: To this purpose have I raised thee, that I may shew my power in thee and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.
    18 Therefore he hath mercy on whom he will. And whom he will, he hardeneth.
    19 Thou wilt say therefore to me: Why doth he then find fault? For who resisteth his will?
    20 O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it: Why hast thou made me thus?
    21 Or hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishonour?
    22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction,
    (from the D-R)
    Thank you.
    Daniel Jones

  8. I sincerely doubt that Adam and Eve are in hell.
    They are actually considered to be saints by the Catholic Church. Their feast day is December 24.
    Saints Adam and Eve, pray for us!

  9. The Church Fathers profess the belief that Adam (and implied Eve) are saved. I don’t know if it is the unanimous belief, but I know more than one early church father has held this belief — and I yet to see any positive examples of someone denying it. One, for instance, is St. Ireneaus.
    I also just finished reading Anne Catherine Emmerich’s The Dolorous Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ. The book is the transcription of her private relveation, dictated by her to another (I believe her confessor?). Anyway, in it she firmly states the (1) salvation of Adam and Eve and (2) damnation of Judas. Of course, this is not Public Revelation, however, it was a mystical subjective experience due to her personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Take it for what it’s worth.

  11. Position 3….
    “Some people are in hell.”
    …isn’t quite the same as…
    “…the Church’s official position is still that there are definitely people in hell, it just doesn’t claim to know which individuals are.”
    Considering the church’s official position, wouldn’t this conflict with those the church declared “saints”? I mean, if they don’t know who is in hell, which is a fair assumption, how can they claim to know who is in heaven? We can assume that we know some are and, like you, I can safely believe that Peter, Paul, and the rest of the gang are there, but past that—I don’t know who’s there.
    If the “infallible” church can say with certainty that Mother Teresa, Bernadette Soubirous, John Bosco, Vincent de Paul, etc. are in heaven, why can’t it say with just as much certainty the names of those whom they believe are in hell (Hitler, Stalin, Ivan the Terrible, Pol Pot, et al)?
    Just doesn’t make any sense to me.
    Churchmouse

  12. It’s the universal tradition of the Church that Adam and Eve are saints in heaven.
    The Latin Church celebrates Adam and Eve’s feast day on December 24:
    http://www.saintpatrickdc.org/ss/1224.htm#adam
    The Eastern Catholic Churches of the Byzantine rite celebrate them, liturgically, on the Second Sunday before Christmas.

  14. As usual, I LOVE your posts and the way you establish your logic James.
    Great one!….and that’s NO sarcasm.

  15. <>
    Doesn’t necessarily follow. It’s still possible to know certain people are in heaven, and not know which people are in hell (besides the examples Jimmy gave).
    <>
    There is no reason to know who is in hell. For the saints, we can know they are in heaven through miracles performed on earth after their deaths, their lives lived on earth, etc. It’s also helpful to know who is in heaven so that we can ask them to pray for us. But for those in hell, there really is no benefit or need for us to know who they are.

  16. Oops! Seems that my quote from Churchmouse’s response got cut off. I was quoting the following, and they fall within the brackets in my previous response, respectively:
    “I mean, if they don’t know who is in hell, which is a fair assumption, how can they claim to know who is in heaven?”
    “If the “infallible” church can say with certainty that Mother Teresa, Bernadette Soubirous, John Bosco, Vincent de Paul, etc. are in heaven, why can’t it say with just as much certainty the names of those whom they believe are in hell (Hitler, Stalin, Ivan the Terrible, Pol Pot, et al)?”
    But Jimmy is the expert here, so please correct me if I’m wrong.

  17. READER ROUND-UP:
    Billy: (1) Existence is an irrevocable gift from God, so those who choose to damn themselves are not annihilated. It is up to us to respond or refuse God’s grace and accept the eternal life with him that makes permanent existence pleasant.
    (2) Be careful with the Dulles article you cite. As Steve pointed out (in a post which I accidentally deleted), that article contains a problematic quotation of a papal address which was corrected when the official version of the talk was printed. Cardinal Dulles himself pointed this out in the same journal in an article a few months later.
    (3) The traditional understanding–though this is not infallible, not having been the subject of a definition–is that Adam and Eve are saved. Interestingly, an early Jewish document implies that Adam will basically be in purgatory until the end of the world.
    Daniel: Paul is stitching together more than one OT passage, only the first of which is about Pharoah directly. As a result, one can’t say with certainty that the later mention of destruction can be defnitely applied to Pharaoh. Paul may have been using Pharaoh as a launching point to get into a general discussion of predestination without implying that what he later quotes was definitely the case for the individual with whom he started the discussion.
    David: It would be wickedness to assume the damnation of a person who was still alive or even dead but concerning whom we don’t have special revelation or an infallible definition. In the case of Judas, however, we have the word of Jesus himself. This changes the situation.
    Churchmouse: See main blog for a reply.
    John: Thanks!

  18. Simon,
    You said:
    There is no reason to know who is in hell. For the saints, we can know they are in heaven through miracles performed on earth after their deaths, their lives lived on earth, etc. It’s also helpful to know who is in heaven so that we can ask them to pray for us. But for those in hell, there really is no benefit or need for us to know who they are.
    Truthfully, this is besides the point. First of all, we would have to assume that the church is correct in saying these “saints” are truly in heaven, regardless of miracles and personal testimonies (which again we would have to trust the church on). Secondly, miracles and personal testimonies aren’t truly indicators of salvation. Other pagan religions have their “holy men” who have mimicked the same. Mr. Akin stated that Judas and Nero could be said to be in hell, which, IMO, is a fair estimation. Yet, when the church claims to know with certainty who “made it”, but cannot say for sure who didn’t; well, it’s pretty presumptuous.
    Peace,
    Churchmouse

  19. James,
    You may be correct about Judas. But this statement by JPII gives me pause:
    “Can God, who has loved man so much, permit the man who rejects Him to be condemned to eternal torment? And yet, the words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel He speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Mt 25:46). Who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard. This is a mystery, truly inscrutable, which embraces the holiness of God and the conscience of man. The silence of the Church is, therefore, the only appropriate position for Christian faith. Even when Jesus says of Judas, the traitor, “It would be better for that man if he had never been born” (Mt 26:24), His words do not allude for certain to eternal damnation.”
    http://www.catholic.net/RCC/POPE/HopeBook/chap28.html

  20. Thanks for the responses Jimmy.
    Wow…I got a response from the great Jimmy Akin…I feel ever so special 🙂

  21. What about the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19. Can we not say for certain that the Rich Man (though we do not know his name) is damned?

  22. No more than we can say anything certain about a aharacter from Aseop’s fables.That was just a parable, not an historical account.
    In any event, it’s not exactly clear that the suffering man in the parable is in hell. Many theologians and apologists have actually used that parable as a proof-text for purgatory. The suffering rich man is obviously penitent, and even has a charitable concern for the salvation of his relatives; something that is not possible for the damned. He is also, apparently, communicating with Abraham and Lazarus, something the damned cannot do.
    In my opinion, the suffering rich man is, in fact, in hell; Our Lord was simply not concerning himself with the nuances of theological eschatology.
    Anyway, carry on . . .

  23. “No more than we can say anything certain about a aharacter from Aseop’s fables.That was just a parable, not an historical account.”
    It seems to me though that since Lazarus was a real life person that the Rich Man in the parable is also a real life person…

  24. I always assumed that the Lazarus of the parable was a different man from Saint Lazarus, brother of Martha and Mary.

  25. Scott Hahn points out, however, that both Lazarus’s were involved with at least a mention of “coming back from the dead” and nobody else ever did that besides Lazarus (Jesus’s resurrection was not a resucitation) and those are also the only two people named Lazarus mentioned in the whole Bible. Which gives some bit of evidence toward the belief that they may be the same person.
    Interesting…

  26. If there is nobody in hell, then how did Our Lady at Fatima show the children souls falling into hell like snowflakes? Hell is mentioned in the New testament more than anything other subject, and Jesus warns how easy it is to miss the narrow path to heaven and walk down wide path to hell. Pray for guidance on this matter, the devil is controlling our Holy Mother Church. Our Lady of Lasallette warned of this, as well as other visionaries/saints such as Marie Julie Jahenny and Ann Catherine Emerich. Yes it is possible for our Church to be run by evil men, Our Lady said so. Checkout the Vision
    of Pope Leo XIII. This things happened for us to be warned of the present trials. BE VERY CAREFUL WITH SCOTT HAHN MATERIAL!

  27. “…The devil is controlling our Holy Mother Church.” That is a heresy,Marcus. We have Our Lord’s word that that is impossible. “The gates of Hell will never prevail against it.”

  29. I am sorry for the miscommunication. the Church buildings are being controlled by herectics. As long as there is a faithful Catholic on Earth and a valid Mass, then the Church continues. Just like the times of Saint Athanasius. Now maybe we should go back to the subject of Hell, and realize that the current trends at the Vatican are promoting anything but the reality of Hell.

  30. Hans Urs von Balthasar is a brilliant theologian, very orthodox, and very misunderstood. He was called the most cultured man in Europe. He is well read, written, and spoke/wrote numerous other including ancient languages. He is much more orthodox than even Karl Rahner. He was an expert on the early Church Fathers. He was a favorite theologian of Pope John Paul II who gave him a red hat in 1988 2 days before he died. The issues surrounding Swiss convert and MD Adrienne von Speyr seem to indicate real sanctity, mysctism, miracles and sainthood. Balthasar was sympathetic to the Latin Mass movement including specifically Lefebvre and was critical of St. Escriva, Opus Dei and the Way but later modified his view.
    His views on Hell are much misunderstood. They may or may not be correct BUT they are Orthodox and are not condemned by the Church.

  32. Concerning the fact that Christ said “it would be better if he would have never been born” could “possibly” be understood knowing Hebraic idiom to mean his name will forever be destroyed throughout history…having a good name in Jewish culture
    is an important matter. This is only speculation. I think it may parallel with the men in the old testament who would refuse to raise up offspring for a deceased brother. His name is forever and for all generations an object of scorn. i do believe that St. Theresa of Avila however was prone to pray for his salvation…to God…who is outside of time.

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