Jimmy Akin

Here we go again. It’s a predictable pattern:

1. Italian journalist Eugenio Scalfari publishes an article attributing shocking statements to Pope Francis
2. The press and the blogosphere freak out
3. The Vatican Press office issues a statement saying that Scalfari isn’t reliable
4. Things die down for a while, but lingering damage is done

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

This time, on October 9^th, Scalfari said:

Those who have had, as I have had many times, the good fortune to meet him and speak to him with the greatest cultural confidence, know that Pope Francis conceives Christ as Jesus of Nazareth, man, not God incarnate. Once incarnated, Jesus ceases to be a God and becomes a man until his death on the cross. . . .

Another episode, also well known, occurs when Jesus is already crucified and there again repeats and is heard by the apostles and women who are kneeling at the foot of the cross: “Lord, you have forsaken me.”

When I happened to discuss these phrases, Pope Francis told me: “They are the proof that Jesus of Nazareth, once he became man, even if he were a man of exceptional virtue, was not a God at all” (Edward Pentin).

Sure enough, the director of the Vatican Press Office promptly put out a statement later the same day. Public consternation continued, and the next day, the Holy See Press Office issued an even more forceful denial:

“The Holy Father never said what Scalfari wrote,” Vatican communications head Paolo Ruffini said at an Oct. 10 press conference, adding that “both the quoted remarks and the free reconstruction and interpretation by Dr. Scalfari of the conversations, which go back to more than two years ago, cannot be considered a faithful account of what was said by the pope.”

“That will be found rather throughout the Church’s magisterium and Pope Francis’ own, on Jesus: true God and true man” (Catholic News Agency).

Scalfari isn’t a reliable source, for several reasons. To be blunt:

1. He is an atheist, and people often aren’t careful when describing the views of those who believe differently than they do.
2. He doesn’t use a tape recorder or even a note pad; he reconstructs the quotations he attributes to the pope from memory.
3. He is 95 years old, and people of that age frequently suffer from memory problems.
4. He is a journalist, and journalists frequently slant and distort things they were told to gin up sales and clicks.
5. The Vatican Press Office has issued repeated warnings and denials concerning Scalfari.

Frankly, Francis should stop talking to the man. Perhaps he’s granted interviews to him to engage with secular culture, as a form of evangelization. Perhaps to evangelize Scalfari specifically—as he is on eternity’s doorstep.

But every time he speak to him, we have a blow up like this, the Church takes a hit, and some of the faithful doubt Francis’s orthodoxy.

Prudence says Francis should stay away from him.

He may already be doing so. The latest Scalfari eruption isn’t based on a new interview but on Scalfari’s memories of a conversation that occurred years ago.

The Holy See’s statement of October 10^th notes it is based on memories “which go back to more than two years ago.” In his article, Scalfari says:

I remember these events that allowed me to meet Pope Francis several times, to discuss with him themes and problems that concern the history of humanity as a whole.

This suggests Francis hasn’t met with Scalfari in some time. Good.

What about the claim that Scalfari attributes to Pope Francis—that God somehow stopped being God when he became incarnate and remained simply a man until his death on the Cross?

This claim makes no sense. God can’t stop being God. He is immutable. The Second Person of the Trinity took on or added a human nature to his divine nature. He didn’t switch from having one to the other.

The conceptual incoherence of the claim gives us immediate reason to doubt it.

Francis has been clear on the fact Jesus remained God during the incarnation. A few moments Googling the Vatican web site turns up multiple instances. A few examples, in chronological order:

The grace which was revealed in our world is Jesus, born of the Virgin Mary, true man and true God (Homily, Dec. 24, 2013).

God became mortal, fragile like us, he shared in our human condition, except for sin, but he took ours upon himself, as though they were his own. He entered into our history, he became fully God-with-us! (Angelus, Jan. 5, 2014).

[For men and women of today, we have] to bring them the Gospel, Jesus Christ himself, God incarnate, who died and rose to free us from sin and death (Message for 48^th World Communications Day, 2014).

When you touch the wounds of the Lord, you understand a little more about the mystery of Christ, of God Incarnate (Address, Apr. 30, 2015).

One Person of the Trinity entered into the created cosmos, throwing in his lot with it, even to the cross (Laudato Si 99).

For Christians, all the creatures of the material universe find their true meaning in the incarnate Word, for the Son of God has incorporated in his person part of the material world, planting in it a seed of definitive transformation (Laudato Si 235).

God chooses an uncomfortable throne, the cross, from which to reign by giving his life (Angelus, Oct. 21, 2018).

Could Francis have said something that formed the basis of what Scalfari attributed to him?

Sure. In Philippians, Paul writes:

Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross (Phil. 2:5-8).

Paul’s point is that, although Jesus actually was equal to God the Father, he was nevertheless willing to humble himself in the Incarnation. He took on human form and lived as a man, being “obedient unto death” on the Cross.

Also, Hebrews notes that, Jesus was “in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sinning” (Heb. 4:15).

Do we find this same thinking in Francis’s writings? Yes, we do.

[Jesus] does not reveal himself cloaked in worldly power and wealth but rather in weakness and poverty: “though He was rich, yet for your sake he became poor.” Christ, the eternal Son of God, one with the Father in power and glory, chose to be poor; he came amongst us and drew near to each of us; he set aside his glory and emptied himself so that he could be like us in all things (cf. Phil 2:7; Heb 4:15) (Lenten Message 2014, 1).

In looking to his face, what do we see? First of all the face of an “emptied” God, of a God who has taken on the condition of servant, humbled and obedient unto death (cf. Phil 2:7) (Address, Nov. 10, 2015).

Here we have all the elements that Scalfari mentions:

• The Pre-Incarnate Christ is God
• He becomes man
• He lives in a human mode, “even if he were a man of exceptional virtue” (i.e., “without sinning”)
• He returns to a glorified mode of existence after his death on the Cross

It looks like Scalfari simply mangled something Pope Francis said based on the teachings of St. Paul and Hebrews.

Scalfari, like some heretics in Church history, mistook Christ’s self-“emptying” as a loss of divinity. But this is not what Paul said or meant. As Pope Francis explained, Jesus is “true man and true God.”

This incident provides us with several lessons that apologists should keep in mind:

1. Christology is a subject that involves precise distinctions that must be carefully made. In fact, it took the Church centuries to hammer out the correct language for articulating those distinctions.
2. It’s important that we communicate the Church’s teachings using clear and precise language at all times.
3. There are some individuals for whom the costs of engaging in dialogue outweigh the benefits.