A reader writes:
I have heard it mentioned that in the Latin Mass the
response to the priest’s statement "The Lord be with
you" was actually "and with your spirit". It seems to
me that "and also with you" makes more sense, but I
think I’m missing something. What does "and with your
spirit" really mean?
Not only does it say "And with your spirit" (Latin, Et cum spiritu tuo) in the Latin version of the Mass, it’s going to say this in the forthcoming new English translation of the Mass as well, if things go as currently planned. This was one of the items that the Vatican wanted fixed in the new translation.
To answer your question, the meaning of "And with your spirit" would depend on the context in which its used. Since there is no express subject for the phrase, that has to be filled in by context. In the liturgy (the only place one encounters this phrase typically) the context is, as you note, as response to "The Lord be with you." "And with your spirit" is thus an abbreviated way of saying "And [the Lord be] with your spirit." It’s a way of wishing the priest the same thing that he just wished us: that the Lord would be with us.
If one were to give a dynamic equivalence rendering of this–one that seeks to preserve meaning without worrying about giving a literal translation–"And also with you"would be an acceptable rendering of the phrase. They mean the same thing.
The problem is that the translators of the current rite of Mass went crazy with dynamic equivalence and totally steamrollered the sacred style of the Mass, making it seem far more banal and blasé than it is in the original Latin. Even if it requires a bit of education to help folks understand what is being said when the Mass is translated in a way that better reflects what the original says, the Holy See has judged that this will be offset by the gain in reverence and appreciation of the richness of the language of the Mass–it’s poetry and art, if you will.
What the previous translators did was the equivalent of taking Shakespeare and paraphrasing it so that ten year olds can understand it without effort. That flattens the art and dignity of the text.
Ultimately, it’s better to teach people to understand and appreciate the elevated style rather than dumbing down the text so they don’t have to learn anything new. The former, educational strategy ennobles the people; the latter, style-squashing strategy dishonors the text.
“…it’s going to say this in the forthcoming new English translation of the Mass as well, if things go as currently planned.”
“As currently planned” means three years and counting (or is it five years) if I am not mistaken.
If I am mistaken, I’m sure someone will set me straight.
Each time in the Mass that the ordained cleric (bishop, priest or deacon) says, “The Lord be with you,” and the people respond, “And with your spirit,” something is about to take place that is reserved to an ordained cleric.
“And with your spirit”
The start of Mass, with penitential rite, absolution prayer, opening prayer.
“And with your spirit”
The Gospel and Homily
“And with your spirit”
The preface and the Eucharistic Prayer
“And with your spirit”
The final blessing.
In a sense, the people’s response of “And with your spirit” is an acknowledgement of the apostolic credentials of the ordained minister. It is an act of faith in the sacramental ministry.
I’m glad to hear that a new English translation of the New Roman Rite is underway. As a Classical philologist (and one very open to dynamic equivalence in translation, at that), I have often been appalled at some of the renderings in the U. S. liturgical books. Most texts are simply unrecognizable!
Well, if it is really more of a “Back atch Father”, then why doesn’t the priest say, “The Lord be with your spirit“?
Any news as to when we might actually see the new translation in practice?
Chris, you wrote:
Well, if it is really more of a “Back atch Father”, then why doesn’t the priest say, “The Lord be with your spirit”?
The priest is not calling on the apostolic ministry when he says to the people, “The Lord be with you.”
However, the people are referring to the apostolic ministry of the ordained when they are saying, “And with your spirit.”
… and it is not a “Back atcha, Father” situation anyway.
In spanish, it says “y con tu espíritu” from the begining (I’m 30), it’s nice and its meaning is very clear.
Believe me, you’ll get used to it in no time.
Does anyone know what other changes there may be?
Does anyone know what other changes there may be?
Fr. S.:
Okay. I have no idea what it means for me to refer to the apostolic ministry of the ordained or why that is appropriate at that time.
WHY is it NOT, as Jimmy said it above, “a way of wishing the priest the same thing that he just wished us: that the Lord would be with us.
”
AND why would someone understand “with YOU” to be different than “with YOUR SPIRIT” since your spirit is an integral part of “YOU”.
Chris, my first posting on this topic pointed out that the “dialogue” in which the people answer the priest with “and with your spirit” always preceeds/introduces an action that requires someone who has been ordained into the apostolic ministry.
Ordination involves the granting of an “anointing,” a certain mark from the Holy Spirit empowering a man for a role, an action, a state. This mark or anointing is something ADDED to my integrity. That is why “with YOU” is not the same as “with YOUR SPIRIT.” By ordination into the apostolic ministry of Christ’s Church I receive something that was not an integral part of ME.
Because, of course, that would ruin the poetry, which is an instance of parallelism, i.e., saying related things in TWO DIFFERENT WAYS.
Why does the psalmist say, “Three things are too wonderful for me / Four I do not understand”? Is there a difference between “too wonderful for me” and “I do not understand”? No, but clearly it wouldn’t do to use exactly the same words. The variation is important.
Even in ordinary English we use this aesthetic of variation. Very often, if you greet someone with “Hello,” they will reply with “Hi” or some other greeting, whereas if you say “Hi” they may say “Hello.”
“The Lord be with you… And with thy spirit” is richer and more satisfying than either “The Lord be with you… And also with you” or “The Lord be with thy spirit… And with thy spirit.”
Fr. S,
You’re giving assertions when I believe you are being asked to provide support.
In my last comment I referenced the phenomenon of parallelism, of which this is clearly an instance. In his book Reflections on the Psalms C. S. Lewis talks about the wrongheaded attempts of some older exegetes to wring divergent meanings out of the verbal variations in such texts; thus it was claimed that “He that dwelleth in the heavens shall laugh,” means one thing, and “the Lord shall have them in derision” means something significantly different.
This was a mistake; but it looks to me as if you may be making the same mistake. If you wish to claim that “And with thy spirit” has some special sacerdotally significant dimension, it would help if you could provide some supporting evidence, e.g., from liturgical or theological sources.
Ronny:
A preliminary draft of the new translation circulated on the internet a while back, but I can’t find a copy of it anymore (they have all been taken down, apparently in the interest of secrecy). But some of the principal changes seen in the draft are discussed at:
http://catholicinsight.com/online/church/liturgy/new_mass.shtml
Note that the draft was not final, and that this article was written last year, so some or all of the changes mentioned here might end up not being implemented.
FWIW, I was taught in “Intro to Liturgy” just last fall the very same thing that Fr. S. is saying.
It’s not like there aren’t usually 40 different converging reasons for everything that happens in the Mass….
I didn’t bring Jungmann back with me for the summer, but I bet there’s a copy in the library here. I’ll look in the morning.
That’s one thing I’ve been whining about since I was like 19, just the flat, meaningless language in the English mass. The hymns are also officially out of control with their static language. In their effort to not offend, they’ve rendered themselves unable to say ANYTHING at all.
Steven, I will look up additional support.
Nonetheless, there is already a liturgical support in that this greeting and response do occur whenever a sacerdotal (or clerical, since the deacon also says this before the Gospel) action is about to begin.
Consider the following.
zenit.org
Date: 2004-06-15
Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical University.
“…from ancient times the expression ‘And with your spirit’ received an added, more spiritual, meaning. St. John Chrysostom (344-407) refers to the spirit of the greeting as the indwelling Spirit and as an allusion to the fact that the bishop performs the sacrifice by the power of the Holy Spirit. For this reason the greeting ‘The Lord be with you’ was from early on restricted to bishops, priests and deacons.
Looking for the actual text from St. John Chrysostom….
‘When he stands at the holy altar, when he is about to offer the awesome sacrifice – you have answered ‘And with your spirit’ reminding yourselves by this reply that he … does nothing by his own power … but by the grace of the Spirit …’
From Theodore of Mopsuestia:
‘the grace of the Holy Spirit by which those confided to his care believe he has access to the priesthood’.
Dom Gregory Dix supports the claim that “And with thy spirit” was interpreted by the early Christians as meaning something more than “And also with you”:
“The reply of the church, ‘And with thy spirit,’ … was interpreted by christians as an acknowledgment of the special grace of the Holy Ghost received by the celebrant at his ordination for his ministry.” (*Shape of the Liturgy*, p. 38)
Patricio wrote above: In spanish, it says “y con tu espíritu” from the begining (I’m 30), it’s nice and its meaning is very clear.
Believe me, you’ll get used to it in no time.
I’ll second that. In our Maronite Liturgy, the response is “wa ma’ ruheeka” (and with your spirit). It’s second nature to say it.
“et cum spiritu tuo” is certainly not a Latin idiom since it is used in the official language of all the rites. Consequently, it must mean more than merely “and also with you.”
The Spanish translation of the mass is very good by the way, unlike the English.
Enjoyed your site…
God bless and keep you in His Love.