It looks like it’s more or less official: The Catholic pro-choice Democrats are at war the US bishops.
The latest escalation: Joe Biden seeks to claim Pope John XXIII as a sort of mascot or icon of liberal pro-choice Catholocrat ideology over against Pope John Paul II. (Added: Okay, the "escalation" is a media artifact in that the interview is six months old. That’s what I get for attributing a master plan to Biden…)
Note the tacit distinction between "the Catholicism that I was raised in" (i.e., "John XXIII Catholicism") and what Biden implicitly suggests is the different Catholicism advocated by "Pope John Paul" (II, presumably) — and by extension by the U.S. bishops in recent months.
I was raised as a Catholic, I’m a practicing Catholic, and I’m totally at home with the Catholicism that I was raised in and this whole culture of social responsibility, reaction to abuse of power, the whole notion that there is collective civic responsibility. It’s the Catholic consciousness that I’m totally comfortable with. … To sum it up, as a Catholic, I’m a John XXIII guy, I’m not a Pope John Paul guy.
By now, of course, everyone knows that the first salvo in this war was fired by Nancy Pelosi in that fateful Meet the Press during the DNC convention. Her comments, in which she suggested that the Church’s stance on abortion was a novelty of the last half century and that the doctors of the Church had basically been tied in knots over it for centuries, elicited a series of episcopal corrections and clarifications.
Unfazed, Pelosi fired back attempting to back up her claims, prompting further episcopal responses including a fact sheet summing up the history of Catholic thought on the subject. Eventually Pelosi’s own ordinary, Archbishop Niederauer of San Francisco, issued a statement inviting Pelosi to meet with him — an invitation which she accepted within 24 hours. According to AmP’s ticking clock, that was 45 days ago.
The next campaign began with Biden himself backing up Pelosi in the same forum as her original comments, Meet the Press. Biden has since made subsequent comments the harmony of his views with "Catholic social teaching," etc. More and more bishops have added their voices to the chorus of clear teaching, which has been generally though not totally ignored or distorted by the MSM.
Biden’s latest comments, though, represent a new wrinkle in the war of Who Gets to Say What Catholicism Is.
So the bishops think it’s their job to authentically interpret the deposit of faith? Well, they can say what "John Paul II Catholicism" is, maybe. For a "John XXIII guy" like Biden, though, "the Catholicism that [he] was raised in" is something he’s "totally comfortable with"… whatever today’s JP2 bishops may say.
Biden also reiterates the now familiar talking points — "my church has wrestled with this for 2,000 years," yadda yadda — while floating a new claim: that "throughout the church’s history, we’ve argued between whether or not it is wrong in every circumstance and the degree of wrong" … and that "up until Pius IX, there were times
when we said, ‘Look, there are circumstances in which it’s wrong but it is not damnation," and only as of "Pius IX in the 1860s" that everything was written in stone.
How John XXIII, 100 years after Pius IX, fits into Biden’s timeline is not entirely clear to me. Is John XXIII supposed to have missed the memo from Pius IX? Or is Biden the one who missed a memo?
By now, of course, we can be pretty sure that there will be responses from bishops (unless it seems like old news), for the MSM to ignore and distort, while giving the Catholocrats headlines like "Biden balances his faith with social responsibility" (I bet you didn’t know faith needed balancing with social responsibility, did you?).
The Catholicrats are escalating. Where will the war go from here?
This war is another great reason to listen to Victor Lams’ latest (prophetic?) song. (Lyrics here)
There must be some prelate still out there who can say, “I knew John XXIII. John the XXIII was a friend of mine. You Senator, are no John XXIII”.
Note, again, how for Biden, Pelosi, et al, the vaunted Wall of Separation Between Church and State only works in one direction… to close off the influence of religion in political life so that they may more easily do what they like and call it “good”.
“Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter.”
Isaiah 5:20
There is judgment coming. It may already be here.
This is part of the “fix” to ensure the MSM candidate gets elected. I suspect they are quite worried about their lead in the polls not being quite as overwhelming as they had hoped, and probably rightly believe that a lot of it has to do with Obama’s radical views on abortion and the Catholic clergy response to the issue. The MSM needed a quote like this one, which Joe Biden was happy to oblige them with, to draw back at least some of those Catholics whose consciences have begun to be a nuisance to themselves.
In fairness, the Biden interview was conducted some time ago, but only just published yesterday. This tells us more about the background of stupidity from which Biden emerges, more than it does his battle plan (which is mostly to lay low and try to get away with statements that cant be turned into embarrassing news bytes).
But with Biden as VP … I’m just wondering about that item on the USCCB November meeting.
Ah, thanks for setting me straight, AmP. I’ve made some cosmetic adjustments accordingly…
It’s said that those who support abortion will have to explain themselves to the souls of all the aborted when they die.
I think that liberal heretic “Catholics,” when they die, should all fall down and beg Pope John XXIII for forgiveness for decades of slandering and mischaracterizing him to justify things Pope John abhorred.
Biden is not Catholic,
rather he is a “cafeteria catholic”
nothing against cafeterias…
I love both John and John Paul. The ironic thing about this absurd “John the nice liberal” vs “John Paul the evil conservative” farce is that on so many issues, John Paul was arguably more progressive and social action-oriented than John XXIII. But Biden probably doesn’t care if it lets him pander to on-the-fence older Catholics who remember John XXIII fondly.
The only way Biden can avoid saying things that can be “turned into embarassing news bytes” is to duct tape his mouth shut.
biden ought to be shot for saying this. (not literally of course).
I wonder what Biden thinks the big differences between John Paul 2 and John 23 are.
Cardinal Wojtyla was an important figure at Vatican II and as pope disciplined relatively few liberal theologians. Unless everthing I read is wrong, there was considerably less freedom to teach liberalism under John 23.
-J. Prot.
last thing we need is a so-called “Catholic” or CINO (catholic in name only) misrepresenting the faith. Matter of fact, John XXIII spoke very highly of Pius IX. Funny, Joe Biden ignores this. Why isn’t Joe excommunicated?
Dear People
Is anyone else having problem in to see the last 2/3 of comments on the Zippy thread, or it’s just me?
And there’s also two small black vertical lines in the upper right corner of every page. The first one is a link to the CAtholic Answers cruise website. Very strange.
SDG, it would be nice if you could take a look.
One of the bishops (I forget which) has brought up the Final Judgment (St. Matthew 25) – will Jesus say to those on His left “I was in my mother’s womb and you killed me. Whatever you did to the least of these, you did to me.”?
FWIW, Orange, the posts are still there in the database — I’m not sure why they aren’t displaying.
Jimmy (not me!) has opened a help ticket with Typepad.
I guess Jesus won’t say: I was in Iraq and your bombs killed me and you tortured me – after all there aren’t 50 million of Jesus being killed in Iraq but a smaller number so Jesus must feel good about that.
Is anyone else having problem in to see the last 2/3 of comments on the Zippy thread, or it’s just me?
It’s not just you. Earlier today I had no trouble viewing all the comments in that thread, but tonight the comments break off with one of Scott W.’s from Saturday. “Recent comments” in the upper right of the screen displays correctly, but the comments are invisible when you go into the thread.
I hope JohnA is enjoying his hobby horse ride.
Just some thoughts:
Top ten reasons why the Zippy thread went down:
10. It must have been my brilliant comments that shorted out the combox in the Zippy thread 🙂
9. Really, maybe I’ve been sleep-hacking and accidentally took down the comments. I think the hidden CIA training is coming back to haunt me. I am convinced that, secretly, I go on missions while I’m sleeping. That must explain why I’m so tired in the morning – and bruised 🙂
8. Maybe this is God’s little bit of humor showing that no post is negligible or that hidden comments (votes) really count!
7. Maybe the comments were wronger.
6. This was just a Jimmy ploy. Now, instead of mystery photos, we’ve got mystery posts
5. It was a mini-black hole.
4. Somebody said a bad word.
3. The sixth Cylon got them.
2. Jimmy switched blog carriers and didn’t tell anyone.
1. I had too much time on my hands, anyway.
The Chicken
The Masked Chicken wins!
I’m not sure what. But that was worth something.
Has anyone read Küng’s “Memoirs”? This “I’m a John XXIII guy” is just Küng doing the talking.
There is judgment coming. It may already be here.
A good point made by Protestant apologist James White (even a broken clock …) is that God’s judgment probably is not going to be seen in the form of floods and earthquakes. Rather, our sins are the judgment; to the extent that depravity takes hold of our nation, we are already therein seeing God’s judgment. We needn’t see a war or famine, judgment is indeed already coming down on us.
White is right. Jordanes said the same thing (in a comment that may or may not be missing right now) — America deserves Obama… and if, please God, the tide should shift and we wind up McCain–Palin, well, there’ll be chastisement enough from that end of things too. McCain–Palin would be a mercy, but not a lot of mercy.
Yeah, but it’s all OK because the Pope gave he and Pelosi communion during his recent visit. Who orchestrated that one? Pelosi and Biden shouldn’t have been allowed in the stadium much less communion line.
Dear TMC
I liked your explanation, but I can’t help thinking that it could at least have happened with the PZ Myers thread, not the Zippy one.
Well, Rotten Orange, if I did sleep-hack the site with my my ultra-secret CIA training, it would make sense that a political post would be hacked, because we all know that the CIA rules the country.
Wait a minute…I hear a knock at the door. Hmm, there are two men in black coats. I gotta go…
The Chicken
“Catholocrats”? Nice– I like that even better than “Cafeteria Catholic;” it captures the idea that the Church’s Truth can be found by a vote….
(Love my Card. Ratzinger fan club shirt: “Truth is not determined by a majority vote.”)
I thought this already was settled in the Bible by Paul, saying that we need to consider ourselves Christ’s, not Paul’s, not of any of his disciples. So his understanding is not only anti-Catholic, but anti-Biblical as well.
Most Catholics are on the Liberal side just like Jesus Christ was a liberal. He clashed constantly with the pharisees(Magesterium) of his day & they killed him. Popes can cause great harm at times & John Paul II is no different.Whether its Pope Honorius being condemned for heresy at 3rd Council of Constantinople or Pope Gregory the Great hailing all sexual relations in Marriage as evil or Pius the IX condemning Democracy. John Paul II preached the opposite of these teachings I guess he^s a dissenter. The reason not much people seem to take issue with aborion is because JPII trivialized it with his hard stand on contraception. It is well noted that abortions during the Reagan & Bush administrations soared because they prevented family planning programs but it dropped significantly during the Clinton years who did the opposite.It^s the same attitude he takes to dropping vocations of which he is responsible for.In this enlightened era who wants to be a priest when pastoral abilities are not rewarded but only if you agree in positions like Humanae vitae or no women priests.John the 23rd allowed the Bishops to denbate & dialogue not suppress & tow the line like a dictator. Don^t be surprised if the next Pope moves away from trying to run the church as a one man show & offers real solutions not reactionary condemnations of anything that dosesn^t fit his own vision.
Pope Honorius was not condemned for heresy; he was postumoustly chastised for not doing enough to fight it.
“…Pope Gregory the Great hailing all sexual relations in Marriage (sic) as evil…” Evidence?
“…Pius IX condemning Democracy (sic).” Evidence?
“John Paul II trivialized (abortion) with his hard stand on contraception.” He strongly and often condemned both; i.e., he taught and defended what the Church has always taught. Hint: That was his job. Bishop Sheen used to ask dissenters: “So what’s your sin?” I believe you’ve told us yours in the second part of the above quoted statement.
In Matthew 16, Jesus examined a democratic church. “Who do men say that I am?” Take a vote. He got several answers, all wrong.
Then, he examined a councilar church. “Who do you(plural) say that I am?” No answer.
Finally, one apostle spoke up. “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” To which Jesus replied: “Blessed art thou, Simon-bar-Jona, for it was not mortal man who revealed this to thee, but My Father in heaven. And I say to thee(note the singular), thou art the rock, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will never prevail against it. Whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. Whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
You dissenters seem to think that the next pope will contradict past popes and change the Church’s teachings on faith and morals (mostly, the latter). And you are always disappointed. We have our Lord’s guarantee that the Holy Spirit will prevent this from ever happening.
Historically incorrect on several counts.
The Pharisees were not the “magisterium” of their day; that would be the Sanhedrin and the Temple establishment, who were mostly Sadducees. Pharisees had no official rank or leadership capacity. They were more like a populist pressure group, in some respects more “liberal” (though also less skeptical) than the establishment.
Jesus was neither tried nor killed by Pharisees. He was tried by the Sanhedrin, and killed by Romans, not Jews.
While Jesus did clash both with the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin, he did so by way of critique from within. His teaching was largely convergent with pharisaical and rabbinic belief. The old idea of first century Judaism or Pharisaism as a brittle legalism is condescending and inaccurate.
“Liberal” and “conservative” are human ideologies, or ideological ranges, with various strong points, weak points and internal tensions.
Jesus was neither “liberal” nor “conservative,” any more than he was a capitalist or a communist, a Republican or a Democrat, a Yankees fan or a Red Sox fan. It is odious to the point of blasphemy to claim Dominical approbation for our human loyalties and movements.
Sorry, your “facts” are incorrect. Abortion has been declining from the Reagan years onward.
Thanks for playing!