The Church of England has taken it on the chin for its capitulation to the sexual revolution in all of its perverse forms, but it is not the only national church in the process of shrugging off traditional Christian morality. The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Sweden is inching closer to offering "blessing ceremonies" to homosexual couples, who profess themselves still dissatisfied at the potential compromise and holding out for "marriage":
"The Church of Sweden has come a step closer to introducing church blessings for gay couples who have signed civil partnership agreements, after a powerful church committee overwhelmingly approved the plans.
"Gay rights group RFSL welcomed the news, but said it would not be satisfied until same-sex couples got the same treatment as their straight counterparts.
"The liturgical committee of the Church Assembly has said that a service of blessing for gay partnerships should be included in the church’s official guidelines.
"The final decision will be taken by the full Church Assembly later this month, but the proposal won a large majority on the committee, with twelve out of fifteen members supporting the blessings."
A gay rights activist worries that it will take another generation before the Church of Sweden allows for gay "marriage":
"Gay rights groups have welcomed the announcement, but Sören Andersson, chairman of Sweden’s largest gay organisation, RFSL, told The Local that he would have liked the church to have gone further.
"’While I think this is a positive step that they are acknowledging relationships is this way, I think it’s sad that they won’t offer the same ceremonies to all couples.’
"’It has taken 30 years for us to come this far; I hope it doesn’t take another 30 years for us to be offered the same ceremonies.’"
Oh, I don’t think he need worry about that. The way things are going, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Church of Sweden cave to the pressure for gay "marriage" within five years.
When Martin Luther and his fellow Reformers stripped northern Europe from the Catholic Church and nationalized the churches in Protestant countries, I wonder if they realized that they would be politicizing religion? History has shown that Caesar is rarely satisfied with his due; without a universal Church led by a supranational pope to keep Caesar in check, the church in a particular country is all too vulnerable to becoming the plaything of Caesar’s lobbyists and activists.
Amen, the Pope and the Church has always been the sole bulwark against all the worlds evils.
It’s sad that I’m not surprised or shocked. Saint Bridget of Sweeden, pray for us!
According to the wikipedia article, the “Church of Sweden” is not a “national” church, having been disestablished since 2000. I’m curious, however, whether it still receives government aid.
I imagine that this is more the result of the liberalism that it present in the so-called “Lutheran” churches in Europe than pressure from government. For instance, for some time you can’t become a bishop in most of these anti-churches unless you support women ministers.
This will not take 5 years. 3 at the longest.
Pray, then it’ll take longer.
There have always been corrupt prelates and obstinant heretic theologians. What the Reformation was really all about was a state power grab over the Church.
The Swedish Church is disestablished but the cards were stacked in favor of secularist pseudo-Lutherans.
The first thing that jumps out at me when comparing the Church of England and the Church of Sweden is that they are both national churches. I suspect that’s one of the prime dangers of having a national church, rather than a universal one: national identity changes with secular mores, rather than being led by them. Is this really the force that should be guiding anyone’s perception of where God wants their faith to go?
“Amen, the Pope and the Church has always been the sole bulwark against all the worlds evils.”
Aye. Contrary to what Mark Shea thinks, today’s Men of Gondor do not reside in the USA…or in any nation in particular. They reside in a Church. 🙂
Whoa, I just made a similar Lord of the Rings reference while commenting on another post (to Theoden, King of Rohan).
Is this, like, LOTR day at JA.O?
The Church of England was a state control device just like the Commie-run Chinese churches today.
I said it once, I said it bunches of times:
When it comes to the “Democratic” reformation of the Chinese government, they are NOT becoming more like us. WE ARE BECOMING MORE LIKE THEM!!
DAH DAH DAAAH! (But seriously, that stinks).
No way that outfit can affirm the Augsburg Confession without having their fingers crossed behind their backs. Even if their bishops are in a direct line to the Apostles.
To be fair, the “politicizing” of this issue works both ways: the Church has tried mightily to influence politicians in definining secular/legal marriage.
Second, the Church can’t turn its back on science forever. Homosexuality is not an illness or neurosis. So there is no basis for denying someone secular rights, benefits & obligations based on their homosexuality.
The Church absolutely does not have to grant marriages to these folks, but to argue they should be denied the legal equivalent by their government is indefensible.
In my eyes it’s no different than female priests: the Church accepts that women are equal to men, but ordinates only male priests for many valid reasons.
The sooner the Church recognizes and takes this position on gay marriage, the sooner the issue will be behind us.
I just realized that my earlier comment was unclear… when I said national church, I didn’t mean it in the sense of necessarily being state-controlled, but in the sense of being a church created to represent a certain national group of people.
Andy,
“Politicizing an issue is to bring politics into a sphere where it ought not to be – i.e. religion, science, etc.”. The Church asks Catholics to live in accordance with their beliefs. If they believe that the Church is true and what she teaches will result in both greater temporal and eternal good, then they should *want* the same good for others. In the political sphere this expresses itself in the form of laws. Laws serve both as a pedagogical tool and a deterrence to evil. It thus says “Do X and you will have the good – life/freedom/happiness.” Hence, the Church asks that politician who call themselves Catholic to live a life of integrity. To do so involves working to enact laws that ensures the common good. To not do so is to publicly proclaim that one doesn’t really believe in the Church or that the Church’s teachings are not true. Both contradict a the politician’s claim of integrity, i.e., he’s either lying to the Church or lying to those who he wishes to represent.
The Church hasn’t turned its back on science. Stop making ignorant statements. The culture that arose due to the Church’s influence is what makes science possible – the goodness of creation, the orderl of creation, the objective reality of creation and the comprehensibility of creation by our intellects. It is precisely the lack of all four of those beliefs in other cultures and religions which led “science” to die an early death elsewhere. Egyptian, Aztec, Chinese, Indian and Islamic civilizations all had early but short-lived flowering of science.
The Church (doesn’t just “accept”) but teaches that women and men are equal in dignity. This means that unlike other religions or philosophies, women – as much as men – are made in God’s image. It doesn’t teach that women and men are equal in responsibilities or abilities. Men are called to be fathers and women are called to be mothers within the context of marriages. A similar situation occurs in the spiritual family of the Church.
You seem to think that the Church just “makes up” teachings as it goes through history. It doesn’t. It passes on what was received and taught by the Apostles. Doctrine unfolds and develops as time progresses but doesn’t substantially change. All historical records indicate that Christ ordained 12 MEN into the priesthood and therefore the Church does this also. Your desire for female priests can only occur if Christ had ordained 6 MEN and 6 WOMEN (or some other ratio) into the priesthood. The fact that he selected his apostles from the various tribes (contrary to the mosaic law) but not from women (in concordance with the mosaic law) speaks volumes to the Church as to how it should act in his name.
So also with the Church’s position on gay “marriage” or for that matter on any morals related to sexuality or other domains of human existence. It teaches what the apostles taught. It can’t contradict those teachings. Other Christian congregations have done so in opposition to the Gospel. If you don’t believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church then you’re welcome to join those other congregations. If you do believe then you have to accept its beliefs and live as it teaches.
The Church has definied the homosexual tendency to be intrinsicly disordered. That is a scientific statement. A homosexual’s genitals perform the same way a heterosexual’s does. Upon orgasm, extreme pleasure is experienced and (in the case of men) semen is released. Its purpose is impregnation. This is Biology 101. I can’t understand how you can say that it isn’t an “illness or neurosis”. Sexuality itself has been perverted in a homosexual man or woman. The fact that they have don’t seem to have brought this on themselves (the science seems to be inconclusive) is why the Church refuses to condemn homosexuals and prevents its memebers from ostracizing them. It does however condemn homosexual behaviour just as it does to perverted heterosexual behaviour. The difference between the two is that there is no normal homosexual behaviour while there is normal heterosexual behaviour. Hence any form of sanction or even blessing of homosexual behaviour cannot be done! Understand? This is why there can’t be any form of “legal sanction” of homosexual behaviour – its intrinsically disordered.
Hope that helps!
Is this really a issue for Catholics today ? No,
In fact it is a matter which Catholics should not bother with.
In the world today, the greatest moral issue is Indifferentism by the Chosen people of God, the Catholics. Immoral behaviour by pagans offends God, surely, but indifferntism by His Chosen People is far, far worse.
This heresy , held by many Catholics is expressed like this: my neighbor who is not a Catholic but a good guy who is not Baptized and does not go to Mass , is Ok with God since he is a nice guy.
Or: while non Catholic assemblies are not in full communion with the Catholic Church, they are pretty darn close and there is no need to try to convert such people from their darkness.
As if Invincible Ignorance is salvific. IF it was, the 11,000 missionaries who came to America wasted their time. And Fulton Sheen could have written a book called – ignorance is worth having. He never wrote that book, thankfully.
No, the great sin of our time is not sodomy, or unjust wars waged on innoncent people or the scandal of phony annulments. The great sin of our time is the heresy of Americanism taken to its extreme, which is indifferentism.
God has always been jealous of HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE, and today is no different.
Outside the Catholic Church, there is no Salvation. The undermining of that defined dogmatic truth is the reason the Catholic Church is in such a dire conditon today.
When Catholics do not believe that this dogma means what it says, and says what it means, they serve to dilute and distort its truth.
The Catholic Church is the ARK of Salvation. Did anyone outside the ARK survive the flood ?
No.
Will anyone outside the Catholic Church be saved ?
Not one soul.
Every Doctor of the Church and Pope since Peter assure us this is true.
Those Catholics who proclaim this truth to
their friends and neighbor truly love them as themselves.
Typo: It should be “It is precisely the lack of one or more of those belifs in other cultures…” in the second paragraph.
Catholicteologican, can you please provide me with references to back up your claim that no one outside the Catholic Church will be saved? Could you also back up your claim as to what the Catholic Church is?
I’d like at least one by every Doctor of the Church and Pope since Peter.
Thanks!
Uh-huh. And meanwhile Italy, Francce, Spain, and Portgual, where the Reformation made no headway, continue to uphold the traditional Christian definition of marriage in their laws.
I’m sure glad Luther didn’t give those countries a state Protestant church, otherwise the governments and societies of Catholic southern Europe might be functionally pagan hedonists today.
Uh-huh. And meanwhile Italy, Francce, Spain, and Portgual, where the Reformation made no headway, continue to uphold the traditional Christian definition of marriage in their laws.
I’m sure glad Luther didn’t give those countries a state Protestant church, otherwise the governments and societies of Catholic southern Europe might be functionally pagan hedonists today.
When the Church uses the term “disordered” to describe homosexuality, it is not trying to classify homosexuality as a disease like Down’s Syndrome or the common cold.
The word “disorder” comes from the idea that our bodies are oriented by God toward a certain end, which is procreation and that when we work against God’s plan by seeking the pleasure without committing to total self-donation we are working against God’s plan.
Procreation is the greatest honor God has bestowed to mankind. Because we are created in His image, when we contribute in the act of procreation we participate in this Divine creative process.
The word “ecstasy” means “to be outside oneself” no wonder, then, that we feel this during the act of procreation when there is indeed another third person standing outside the heterosexual couple, waiting for a body to contain the soul.
Sex without the physical commitment of self-donation is very much like eating for the pleasure of food, but purging yourself afterward and denying the nutritive aspect of food.
Bulimia, like homosexuality, is a disorder. One is an eating disorder, the other is a sexual disorder.
The logic you use, that sexual pleasure is natural (no argument from the Church there) and therefore any act leading to a healthy, natural sexual release is innately good — is wrong.
The same logic could be used for others suffering from sexual disorders like the pedophile and those in willingly committing incest.
You may like to rely with dogmatic confidence on your scientific understanding to talk people suffering with such disorders to not participate in such unholy acts (psychological damage, inbreeding if birth control is not used) but science is not meant to act as a moral guide. It does not care if you go to Hell. It does not love you eternally, nor does it open your existence to divine significance. Like Stalin, Mao, and Hitler, you would be making science your god.
And this would make you no different from any other Secular in this Second Dark Age.
Here is a start Mr Ashton Vaz:
There is but One Universal Church of the
faithful outside of which no one AT ALL is saved.
Pope innocnet III, Fourth Lateran Council 1215.
This is a infallible dogmatic definition which can never be changed modified or understood in any sense other than its stated sense.
You might also look up the definition of Pope Boniface VIII, and his infallible definition,
in unum sanctum. 1302 a.d.
Catholictheologian, in response to your claim this was my request: “I’d like at least one by every Doctor of the Church and Pope since Peter.” You’ve only provided one. I’m still waiting for statements by the other 264 Popes and the 33(?) Doctors.
I’m also still waiting on a definition of what the Catholic Church is. As far as I can see, the definition isn’t listed alongside the quote that you’ve provided. Could you please point me to the dictionary that Pope Innocent III was using when he penned that line…in the original Latin please. And please, while you’re at it, could you also please provide me with proof that your understanding of its “stated sense” is accurate.
Thanks.
No person will be asked to quote more than one infallible definition, on the exclusive nature of Salvation found only within the Catholic Church, at the particular Judgement, so don’t sweat the other hundred definitions that say the same thing.
Be wary of those who claim Catholicism is the Cadillac faith. They believe, preach and teach all roads LEAD to heaven, the Catholics just have the smoothest ride.
There was One Ark, and there has always been One True Faith, one narrow road.
Jimmy: Does Catholictheologian meet the definition of a troll? 🙂
If so, should I stop feeding it/him/her?
Catholictheologian: Can you back up your claim that we will be asked to quote an infallibale definition regarding Salvation at the particular Judgement?
Thanks for not answering any of my queries. Once again, can you prove that anyone that is not Catholic is going to Hell? Can you also please prove that anyone who is Catholic is going to Heaven? Who here has claimed that Catholicism is the Cadillac faith – whatever that means!? Those on other roads roads (by this I assume that you mean religions) will end up in heaven if their followers have not had the Gospel preached to them and they follow the natural law (as they are aware of it) to the best of their abilities. They are not going to be judged by what they don’t know but rather by what they do know and how faithful they have been to it.
Ashton:
That is known as salvation by sincerity. But SOS is not salvific. Any Catholic who follows SOS needs to read the Bible, which debunks that in many places.
It has always been a teaching of the Catholic church that only Baptized Catholics in a state of grace go to heaven.
Heaven has never provided any sign or evidence from a apparition or Saint, that non Catholics in Heaven.
The Lady of mejugorje and the Lady of Bayide, and many other ladies that appear on demand to the apparition crowd might say heaven has lots of non Catholics. And many still wait for a sign as the promoters rake in the big bucks on these condemned magic shows.
Fatima reinforces No Salvation Outside the Church.
/The Scriptures show this in many examples, how important Baptism is, that God will send an Angel if need be, to get the WATERS of Baptism to the person of good will.
All humans are born with Orginal Sin, and it is the waters of Baptism that wash that away.
But as humans we sin, therefore we need confession to keep us holy.
Are you suggesting God is using the menu plan for heaven.
Born in India, no need for Baptism, faith or good works
Born in Russia, free pass on all sacraments.
That is a modern teaching, but it is all manmade.
Every Saint, in heaven, assures of us there is ONE Faith, the Catholic Faith.
This is something my SOS Catholic friends find hard to accept.
God will give the grace of the Catholic FAITH to those who he knows will accept it. He will allow the unfaithful to join sects, which are all outside of Catholic Faith, where they can wrest the scriptures to their own liking. I believe God tells us they ( rebel Catholics /heretics pagans etc…) will be sent the operation of error and the lie, which they will embrace instead of the truth.
As to the so called invincible ignorant, this is a straw dog.
First, God will give the truth to those who seek it. And if need be He will send a Angel.
Pagans who follow their heart, and never commit a mortal sin, which alone requires a special grace from God, die with Original sin on thier souls.
If one can enter HEAVEN with ORIGINAL sin , Jesus and his mission did nothing.
Are you suggestiong there is a last minute depot outside of Heaven, where folks can go and get Baptized right before their particular Judgment.
There is not.
That depot is called life and those who are not serious about the truth on earth, are in for a surpirse if they think a free pass awaits them just because some false preacher told them so. The Mercy of God cannot contradict His Justice.
God provides all the graces needed to come to the fullness of Truth.
Most people will not accept it, and the gospels tells us few find the narrow and fewer will stay the course.
The Saints tell us that based on what they have witnessed, during one hour 30,000 humans died and only 5 or 6 made it to purgatory or Heaven.
Only 8 survived the flood out of 10,000,000,000.
Catholictheologian: You’re beginning to sound like a lunatic. I don’t know if you are or you’re just ignorant on many teachings of the Church. Regardless, this is going off-topic. Please email me if you wish to continue discussing this further.
I have just finished reading about the life of Saul Alinsky, one of the most radical Marxists in the United States,the man who inspired FR. Art Baranowski. Art is the founder of small church communites, who in case readers do not know,is also a big booster of CTA, a radical pro abort, pro homo group.
Saul tells his disciples, never attack the issue, only the person.
Those who would want to rebuke a specific part of a post, please do so.
This is all about Catholic truth, Catholic doctrine, which as we read in 2Thes, in the later time many will have itching ears, wanting to believe error, and God will send those the operation of error.
SOS ( Salvation by sincerity) is the operation of error, it lets every Catholic off the hook to avoid converting their neighbor. SOS is the rationale for interfaith dialogue which promotes error. ( My faith is good and your faith is good.) As if worshipping a false god is condoned in heaven.
Catholictheologian: Last reply. Email me if you wish to continue this discussion. This is going off topic.
Can’t you guys just resolve this dispute between your private interpretations of Catholic dogma by submitting to the living authority of an infallible Magist- … oh, forget it.
JJ: The dogmas on Salvation could not be any clearer. Dogmas are written to be clear , so people do not need to consult a expert to understand them.
It is the modernists who subvert clearly defined dogmas.
When you are told by the ship captain,( if you jump off the cruise ship into the 40 degree water without a life jacket, you will die,) can it be any clearer.
Do you need a biologist to explain it to you.
No. Any kid can figure it out.
Thus, if Jesus told us we need to be Baptized and hold to the One True Faith in order to save our souls, and that simple dogmatic truth has been defined and repeated by hundreds of Catholic popes and Doctors of the Church, there is no need to debate the issue.
Those who die without the Catholic Faith and without Baptism die in their sins.
Gods is not bound by those rules, but we are.
And he has never given any hint they have been modified since Vatican II.