New Options in the Stem Cell Debate?

You may have heard rumblings about new options in the stem cell debate that could get us around the current impasse.

SLATE RECENTLY RAN AN ARTICLE ON TWO SUCH PROPOSALS.

I’m not convinced that either proposal works.

I’ll talk about the first, and simpler, proposal today and the second later.

Here’s Slate’s description of the first:

The first, by Drs. Donald Landry and Howard Zucker of Columbia
University, proposes that we take stem cells from embryos at the same
point at which we take organs from children and adults: right after
they die. All we have to do is agree on the point at which an embryo is
dead. Landry suggests that this point is "the irreversible arrest of
cell division," which conveniently applies to huge numbers of embryos
frozen in IVF clinics. With further study, he argues, we can clarify
the signs of irreversible arrest, which will tell us when it’s kosher
to start yanking stem cells. He cites an experiment in which stem cells
from arrested frog embryos were injected into normal frog embryos.
Twenty-five percent of the cells began to divide again and were
absorbed into the new embryos.

The conservatives on the council
like the idea. They have two concerns. They want to make sure the signs
chosen to certify embryo death don’t exclude some living embryos.
They’re also wary of the Columbia team’s suggestion that stem cells
could be harvested from embryos "in extremis," i.e., near death. But
Landry and Zucker point out that these are the same issues ethicists
have worked out in the case of a dying child or adult. We just need to
iron out the details. That’s the beauty of the proposal: It’s
conventional.

The idea of harvesting stem cells from deceased embryos is something that occurred to me before. While it would get around the fact that embryonic stem cell research is otherwise murder, the mere fact that we’re not dealing with murder any more does not mean that it is problem-free. Here are several concerns:

  1. The first and biggest problem is that we don’t know when an embryo is dead. In the absence of heart or brain (neither of which has developed at the time researchers want to harvest stem cells), conventional tests for life don’t apply. The "irreversible cessation of cell division" proposal is not unobjectionable.
    • First, what counts as "irreversible" may be a technical matter that is not intrinsic to the question of life. Just as we can often now re-start the hearts of people who previously had technologically irreversible cessation of heart activity (and thus now no longer use merely the absence of a heartbeat as a test for life), research may make it possible to reverse cessation of cell division in embryos.
    • Second, and related to the former, cessation of cell division (reversible or not) may be one stage of dying for embryos, but not death itself, just as cessation of heartbeat is one stage of dying for adults, but not death itself.
    • Third, the most obvious (to me) point at which we could say that an embryo is dead is when cellular metabolism has stopped. But if you wait that long, the stem cells may not be of any use.
  2. Supposing that there is a point at which the embryo can be established as dead and at which the stem cells could be usefully harvested, there are still other concerns. One is what should be done with all the embryos languishing in cryonic suspension in IVF facilities. One possibility is that they ought to be implanted and allowed to develop (though is is controversial among conservative Catholic moral theologians). Unfortunately, the vast numbers of these children make this a practical impossibility.
  3. Supposing, then, that these children are not to be allowed to develop, what should happen to them? Baptizing them, unfreezing them (and baptizing them will itself unfreeze them), allowing them to die  naturally, and then respectfully dealing with their remains would seem to be the preferred way of addressing the situation.
  4. Rather than proceding immediately to burial or cremation, though, would it be possible for parents to fill out the equivalent of an organ donor card for these children (a stem cell donor card)? We let parents do that with children are born and then die in the natural way.
  5. In principle, perhaps it could be done. But I feel a moral discomfort with the idea of letting parents artificially create large numbers of children that they can’t possibly raise and then, upon their expiry, hand them over to researchers for experimentation on their corpses.
  6. The root problem, of course, is the artificial creation of the children in the first place. That was immoral and unethical and should not have happened. But accepting it as something that cannot be undone, should parents be allowed to donate their children’s stem cells to bring some good out of their cruelly and immorally short lives–perhaps doing so to stop the outright murder of other children?
  7. All I can say is . . . maybe. While the Church recognizes the moral legitimacy of organ donation in principle, it is not at all clear that it would be proper to allow parents who have artificially created children for themselves to exercise this possibility on behalf of these children.

It thus strikes me that the situation is far too ambiguous, and ultimately we’ll need guidance from the CDF on this one (which won’t offer such guidance until Catholic moralists have chewed this one over for a while).

In any event, it seems to me that this proposal is very far from being a slam dunk.

Protecting Children From A Different Threat

Yesterday Ed Peters, Mark Brumley, I, and another had an e-mail conversation about the situation of a Catholic school in Orange County, California that has admitted the children of two homosexual "fathers" to its kindergarten. This prompted outrage parents to demand that the situation be recitifed. The school has refused, and the parents are appealing to the Vatican. School officials, as well as William Donohue of the Catholic League have defended the school’s position, arguing that taking a different one would lead to not allowing children into the school whose parents are divorced or contracepting.

GET THE STORY.

ED HAS NOW BLOGGED HIS EXCELLENT THOUGHTS ON THE SITUATION.

UPDATE: MARK BRUMLEY HAS ALSO PUT UP HIS EXCELLENT THOUGHTS.

Here are my thoughts (edited from our e-mail conversation):

  • Though I have been unable to verify this online, part of my memory is

    telling me that the school has allowed one of the "fathers" to have a

    role caring for the kindergarten class. I don’t know if that’s the case,

    but it’s a situation that may arise in some school, so let’s consider it

    for theoretical purposes.

  • As Ed points out, there seems to be a spectrum of progressively more

    disordered situations here. I would construct the spectrum along the

    following lines:

  1. Children of normal parents living in accord with Church teaching.
  2. Children of parents who formerly did not live according to Church

    teaching but who presently are.

  3. Children of parents who are divorced and not remarried.
  4. Children of parents who are secretly contracepting.
  5. Children of parents who make no secret of the fact that they are

    contracepting or that they hold other opinions at variance with Church

    teaching.

  6. Children of parents who are divorced and invalidly remarried.
  7. Children of parents who are not married.
  8. Children of parents who are divorced and now cohabiting with another.
  9. Children of homosexual "parents."
  10. Children of homosexual "parents" whose "parents" take a public role

    in the life of the class.

  • The primary purpose of a Catholic school is to provide a quality

    Catholic education for all of its students collectively. This means

    that there would be rational grounds, even in the absence of a mandate

    from the Vatican, for the school to establish policies against anything

    that would substantially interfere with the ability of the school to

    fulfill its primary purpose.

  • A quality Catholic education will involve not only imparting

    information to students but also shielding them from certain realities

    of life until they are cognitively and morally prepared to come to terms

    with them. This includes preserving the sexual innocence of young children and

    shielding them from knowledge of same-sex unions.

  • Though in no case is the disordered situation of his parents the fault of the child, some of the situations on the spectrum above would clearly seem to

    pose a challenge to the school’s ability to provide a quality Catholic

    education for all its students. Somewhere between item #1 and item #10

    on the spectrum, a line must be drawn.

  • Where this line is to be drawn, in the absence of a mandate from the

    Vatican, would seem to be a prudential decision best made by those in

    charge of the school (including the bishop, especially if it is a

    diocesan school) in consultation with the parents whose children will be

    affected by the impact of the decision.

  • It would seem that there are several places where the line could

    rationally be drawn:

a) Since items #1-#3 do not involve situations in which parents are

violating Church teaching, they seem to all be permissible situations in which to admit the children to the school.

b) With item #4, an occult sin is introduced but, since it is occult, it

would not seem to pose any impediment to the school being able to

fulfill its mission.

c) With item #5, a rational case could be made if a school wished to

adopt a strict line to protect the children it serves, as the parents’

open dissent could pose an impediment to the school’s ability to

fulfill its mission. However, prudence makes one wonder the extent to

which the children of the school would even be aware of the parents’

dissent. Unless they are unusually obnoxious public activists, their

dissent is more likely to be known to other parents but not to the

children of the school.

d) Lines also could be drawn with even greater basis anywhere among

items #6-#8, as each of these involves a more obviously disordered

situation. However, the question must still be raised of the extent to

which the children of the school–apart from the children of the parents

in question–would be aware of the situation. The condition of the

parents might not be sufficiently known among the student body to

impeding the school in fulfillings its mission. Especially in schools

with young students, parents in these conditions might be perceived by

the children simply as the mommy and daddy of a student and presumed to

be married in accord with Church teaching.

e) A line most emphatically could be drawn before item #9, as the

introduction of a student who has "two mommies" or "two daddies" is

almost certainly to come to the attention of the children and create a

significant impediment to the school fulfilling its mission.

f) A line absolutely must be drawn before item #10. The introduction of

one or both of the homosexual "parents" into the life of the class is certain to fixate the

attention of the students on the situation and dramatically amplify the

impediment to the school’s mission.

Protecting Children From A Different Threat

Yesterday Ed Peters, Mark Brumley, I, and another had an e-mail conversation about the situation of a Catholic school in Orange County, California that has admitted the children of two homosexual "fathers" to its kindergarten. This prompted outrage parents to demand that the situation be recitifed. The school has refused, and the parents are appealing to the Vatican. School officials, as well as William Donohue of the Catholic League have defended the school’s position, arguing that taking a different one would lead to not allowing children into the school whose parents are divorced or contracepting.

GET THE STORY.

ED HAS NOW BLOGGED HIS EXCELLENT THOUGHTS ON THE SITUATION.

UPDATE: MARK BRUMLEY HAS ALSO PUT UP HIS EXCELLENT THOUGHTS.

Here are my thoughts (edited from our e-mail conversation):

  • Though I have been unable to verify this online, part of my memory is
    telling me that the school has allowed one of the "fathers" to have a
    role caring for the kindergarten class. I don’t know if that’s the case,
    but it’s a situation that may arise in some school, so let’s consider it
    for theoretical purposes.
  • As Ed points out, there seems to be a spectrum of progressively more
    disordered situations here. I would construct the spectrum along the
    following lines:
  1. Children of normal parents living in accord with Church teaching.
  2. Children of parents who formerly did not live according to Church
    teaching but who presently are.
  3. Children of parents who are divorced and not remarried.
  4. Children of parents who are secretly contracepting.
  5. Children of parents who make no secret of the fact that they are
    contracepting or that they hold other opinions at variance with Church
    teaching.
  6. Children of parents who are divorced and invalidly remarried.
  7. Children of parents who are not married.
  8. Children of parents who are divorced and now cohabiting with another.
  9. Children of homosexual "parents."
  10. Children of homosexual "parents" whose "parents" take a public role
    in the life of the class.
  • The primary purpose of a Catholic school is to provide a quality
    Catholic education for all of its students collectively. This means
    that there would be rational grounds, even in the absence of a mandate
    from the Vatican, for the school to establish policies against anything
    that would substantially interfere with the ability of the school to
    fulfill its primary purpose.
  • A quality Catholic education will involve not only imparting
    information to students but also shielding them from certain realities
    of life until they are cognitively and morally prepared to come to terms
    with them. This includes preserving the sexual innocence of young children and
    shielding them from knowledge of same-sex unions.
  • Though in no case is the disordered situation of his parents the fault of the child, some of the situations on the spectrum above would clearly seem to
    pose a challenge to the school’s ability to provide a quality Catholic
    education for all its students. Somewhere between item #1 and item #10
    on the spectrum, a line must be drawn.
  • Where this line is to be drawn, in the absence of a mandate from the
    Vatican, would seem to be a prudential decision best made by those in
    charge of the school (including the bishop, especially if it is a
    diocesan school) in consultation with the parents whose children will be
    affected by the impact of the decision.
  • It would seem that there are several places where the line could
    rationally be drawn:

a) Since items #1-#3 do not involve situations in which parents are
violating Church teaching, they seem to all be permissible situations in which to admit the children to the school.

b) With item #4, an occult sin is introduced but, since it is occult, it
would not seem to pose any impediment to the school being able to
fulfill its mission.

c) With item #5, a rational case could be made if a school wished to
adopt a strict line to protect the children it serves, as the parents’
open dissent could pose an impediment to the school’s ability to
fulfill its mission. However, prudence makes one wonder the extent to
which the children of the school would even be aware of the parents’
dissent. Unless they are unusually obnoxious public activists, their
dissent is more likely to be known to other parents but not to the
children of the school.

d) Lines also could be drawn with even greater basis anywhere among
items #6-#8, as each of these involves a more obviously disordered
situation. However, the question must still be raised of the extent to
which the children of the school–apart from the children of the parents
in question–would be aware of the situation. The condition of the
parents might not be sufficiently known among the student body to
impeding the school in fulfillings its mission. Especially in schools
with young students, parents in these conditions might be perceived by
the children simply as the mommy and daddy of a student and presumed to
be married in accord with Church teaching.

e) A line most emphatically could be drawn before item #9, as the
introduction of a student who has "two mommies" or "two daddies" is
almost certainly to come to the attention of the children and create a
significant impediment to the school fulfilling its mission.

f) A line absolutely must be drawn before item #10. The introduction of
one or both of the homosexual "parents" into the life of the class is certain to fixate the
attention of the students on the situation and dramatically amplify the
impediment to the school’s mission.

A Modest Distributed Labor Proposal

Down yonder, a reader writes:

Ever consider doing a list of questions asked in a particular
Q&A show for the whole set of shows on Catholic.com Sometimes I
want something fun to listen to so I’ll pick one at random. Othertimes
I’d like to hear an answer to a question I have, and having a list of
the questions asked as a pop-up or heads-up display would be really
keen.

I don’t have the time to do this, I’m afraid. I can make up question lists for all of my shows from here on out, but I’m not able to go back and do the whole run–for my own shows, much less everybody else’s. (Among other things, I have a blog to write.)

That being said, I recognize the value of doing this and I’m not opposed to the idea–if I can get some help doing it.

Tell ‘ya what:

  • Y’all can see the level of detail and way I’m describing the questions.
  • If anybody wants to volunteer to do a block of shows, e-mail me and I’ll let you know which ones to do (this way we won’t have people duplicating efforts by picking the same shows).
  • Each block would be a month on the calendar (typically three to six shows of mine).
  • You tell me how many blocks you’d like to volunteer for (mininum commitment = 1 block; assinging individual shows rather than blocks would be a bookkeeping nightmare).
  • Then you do the question lists (which only takes a few minutes per show since you can jump forward once you get the sense of a question–unless you want to listen to the whole show ’cause you’re interested), e-mail them back to me, and I’ll post them.

If we can work through the backlog of my shows, that would show that there are enough people out there interested in doing this that it would make sense to do it for the rest of the shows as well, at which point I would propose it to the folks in the Web and Radio Departments at Catholic Answers that we get this all done via volunteers and then post it all on Catholic.Com so everyone can benefit from it.

If they say yes, we do it. (If they say no, we don’t do it, but I’m pretty sure they’d say yes if the data is offered to them and I’ve already proven that there are enough volunteers by doing my own shows, which are about a fifth of the total.)

Whadda y’all think?

Getting Kids Out Of Harm's Way

Down yonder, a reader asks:

Wouldn’t posing as a child trafficker constitute the sin of lying?

It depends on whether you actually lie. It would be possible to use mental reservations to get through the situation. As another reader suggests:

IMO, this would fall under not lying. His interest is literally to

purchase children. His intent is for that purchase to be an act of

charity. By stating his interest he is not lying.

The Catechism would seem to offer support for this:

CCC 2489

Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request

for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for

privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what

ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid

scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth

to someone who does not have the right to know it.

Rescuing children from sexual slavery would constitute "the good and safety of others" needed to justified "making use of a discreet language"–i.e., mentally reserving the fact that you are really an undercover operative trying to shut down the child slavery ring and otherwise seeking to purchase the children.

Of course, since the individuals at International Justice Mission are Evangelicals, they may well be unacquainted with the idea of mental reservation and may simply lie. I don’t know that they do, but it’s a possibility, especially when they get into situations where they don’t have a mental reservation handy and can’t risk exposure (which would likely imperil their lives). In such circumstances, though, the morality of their act would not only be ameliorated because of the grave fear of exposure and by their Evangelical formation but also because:

CCC 2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms,

the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by

its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes

mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

Trying to rescue kids from sexual slavery and bust up a ring of sex slave criminals is going to severely mitigate the culpability of the lie, just as in the case of the Hebrew midwives who lied to protect the baby boys in Exodus 1.

(And don’t be distracted by the harm suffered by the sex slave criminals who are then locked-up as a result. That isn’t "harm" in the sense of an unjust injury inflicted on the innocent. It’s getting them at least a fraction of what they deserve and thus not "harm." In the sense intended by this passage, "harm" means something bad that happens to an innocent person, not the avoidance of legitimate punishment.)

Unfortunately, even for one who is aware of the idea of mental reservation, doing this kind of work would put one in the proximate occasion of sin as one would be regularly tempted to lie to avoid exposure. However, given the relative gravity of the lies one would be tempted to tell and the gravity of what will happen to these kids if they are not rescued, it would seem that the assumption of this risk would be warranted for those able to stomach the work.

Getting Kids Out Of Harm’s Way

Down yonder, a reader asks:

Wouldn’t posing as a child trafficker constitute the sin of lying?

It depends on whether you actually lie. It would be possible to use mental reservations to get through the situation. As another reader suggests:

IMO, this would fall under not lying. His interest is literally to
purchase children. His intent is for that purchase to be an act of
charity. By stating his interest he is not lying.

The Catechism would seem to offer support for this:

CCC 2489
Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request
for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for
privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what
ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language.
The duty to avoid
scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth
to someone who does not have the right to know it.

Rescuing children from sexual slavery would constitute "the good and safety of others" needed to justified "making use of a discreet language"–i.e., mentally reserving the fact that you are really an undercover operative trying to shut down the child slavery ring and otherwise seeking to purchase the children.

Of course, since the individuals at International Justice Mission are Evangelicals, they may well be unacquainted with the idea of mental reservation and may simply lie. I don’t know that they do, but it’s a possibility, especially when they get into situations where they don’t have a mental reservation handy and can’t risk exposure (which would likely imperil their lives). In such circumstances, though, the morality of their act would not only be ameliorated because of the grave fear of exposure and by their Evangelical formation but also because:

CCC 2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms,
the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by
its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes
mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

Trying to rescue kids from sexual slavery and bust up a ring of sex slave criminals is going to severely mitigate the culpability of the lie, just as in the case of the Hebrew midwives who lied to protect the baby boys in Exodus 1.

(And don’t be distracted by the harm suffered by the sex slave criminals who are then locked-up as a result. That isn’t "harm" in the sense of an unjust injury inflicted on the innocent. It’s getting them at least a fraction of what they deserve and thus not "harm." In the sense intended by this passage, "harm" means something bad that happens to an innocent person, not the avoidance of legitimate punishment.)

Unfortunately, even for one who is aware of the idea of mental reservation, doing this kind of work would put one in the proximate occasion of sin as one would be regularly tempted to lie to avoid exposure. However, given the relative gravity of the lies one would be tempted to tell and the gravity of what will happen to these kids if they are not rescued, it would seem that the assumption of this risk would be warranted for those able to stomach the work.

An Unexpectedly Dark Angle On The Tsunami Disaster

This won’t go up until Friday, but I’m typing it on Thursday night while watching The O’Reilly Factor, as I sometimes do. (I find much of the reporting on this show quite good, but I find Bill O’Reilly’s ego intrudes into the show a bit too much.)

Tonight he ran a story that absolutely Turned My Stomach.

You’ve probably heard about sex tourism in Asia. I’ve heard about it, but don’t know much about it. Apparently, what it involves (at least some of the time) is selling orphaned/abandoned/missing children into sexual slavery.

According to O’Reilly’s guest, an expert in this subject, the traffickers who sell these children are now looking to prey upon the large number of children who were orphaned or lost touch with their families as a result of the tsunami.

The reason the guest is an expert is that he works with an organization called International Justice Mission, an Evangelical organization that seeks to thwart the child traffickers. One way they do that is they go over to Asia posing as child buyers, and get intelligence on the child sellers, and then get that info to people in the (often corrupt) local governments who will slap the child sellers behind bars. 

They’ve had a lot of success!

God bless them for their work!

I just can’t imagine how they’re able to do it. The idea of going anywhere near that slimy underworld, much less posing as members of it, absolutely makes my skin crawl.

I still need to learn more about this ministry–how Catholic-friendly they are–and whether there is a Catholic organization that does equivalent work, but IJM may end up as an organization I financially support.

Somebody needs to protect children in this way.

LEARN MORE.

Lovecraft Makes A Slip

Okay, I’m listening to a story that H.P. Lovecraft ghostwrote (an appropriate thing for a horror writer) that is called The Mound.

One of the things I like about Lovecraft is the way he uses language. He had a real way with words and a phenomenal number of words in his active vocabulary.

But in this story, he makes a slip.

At one point, the narrator writes:

That evening the Comptons summed up for me all the legends current among the villagers.

Where might this "village" be? The Swiss alps? The island of Borneo? The sleepy hillsides of New England? They certainly have villages in all of those places, but they don’t where Lovecraft’s story is set:

Western Oklahoma.

Nobody in that part of the country talks about towns, however small, as "villages," nor describes their occupants as "villagers." In the dialect common in those parts, the proper, polite term is "town," and the proper way to speak of the inhabitants is "townsfolk." (Less polite terms are also available if you don’t set much stock by the town and its inhabitants.)

I suppose an exception would be made for "Indian villages" in the area, but then the inhabitants wouldn’t be called "villagers" but simply "Indians" (at least in 1928, when the story is set). But that’s not the kind of "village" he’s talking about.

In fairness to Lovecraft, his narrator is from the East and so is apt to describe things as an easterner would, but if he was really having a conversation with a local family about what legends were common among the townsfolk then they would likely have used the word "townsfolk" (or "townspeople" or something of this nature) and it should have ended up in the narrator’s narrative.

In any event, the detail rang false for me.

It’s very hard to imitate the idiom of another region and not get spotted by natives of the area (myself, in this case). I would never be able to fake Lovecraft’s New England setting and idiom.

So, if I ever write horror stories set in the present day, I guess they’ll have to be set in the South or Southwest.

UPDATE: I finished The Mound, and toward the end of the story it is revealed that the narrator is a Virginian. So: Unless they have "villages" in Virginia (and so far as I know, they don’t), what we have here is a flat-out mistake on Lovecraft’s part, letting his native New England idiom intrude onto a story about the South. He ain’t from around these parts, I reckon.

"Coming With?"

Down yonder, a commenter writes:

I remember that while living in Germany with some other America

students, we were speaking English as some of us were going out to see

a movie. I asked, "Are you coming with?" and the Texans giggled saying

"Your German is showing." That’s because in German, the phrase is

"Kommst du mit?" and in English it is "Are you coming with us/me?"

(mit=with) No dangling prepositions I guess.

In response, I looked at them strangely and told them that, and

everyone I knew in Illinois, routinely said, "Are you coming with?"

which seemed to flabbergast the Texans.

The linguist among us pondered for a bit and eventually decided that

the reason I spoke differently was that the massive number of German

immigrants to the Midwest affected the way people spoke English.

I had an English teacher once insist that it was not proper to end

sentences with prepositions and went into this discussion of Latin,

prepositions in Latin, grammar, and how it was impossible for

prepositions to not have nouns after it. I then mentioned that in

German, prepositions routinely ended sentences. He then informed me

wrily that that was German, not English. I then responded that since

English was a Germanic language, it made more sense for it to follow

German than to use a strict definition of a Latin word that describes

Latin grammar for a non-Romantic language. He did not seem pleased.

I have no beef against ending sentences with a preposition. That commonly happens in English. But I have to admit (as a Texan) that sentences like "Are you coming with?" sound incomplete to me.

I first encountered sentences of this sort on Mystery Science Theater 3000, which often has Minnesota/Wisconsin influence because of where it was filmed.

When I first heard Pearl Forrester (Mary Jo Pehl), as she was about to enter a black hole, tell Mike Nelson: "Oh, no, no, no, no, no. You’re coming with!", I thought it was a cute phrase deliberately exaggerated for commedic effect.

Maybe not.

“Coming With?”

Down yonder, a commenter writes:

I remember that while living in Germany with some other America
students, we were speaking English as some of us were going out to see
a movie. I asked, "Are you coming with?" and the Texans giggled saying
"Your German is showing." That’s because in German, the phrase is
"Kommst du mit?" and in English it is "Are you coming with us/me?"
(mit=with) No dangling prepositions I guess.

In response, I looked at them strangely and told them that, and
everyone I knew in Illinois, routinely said, "Are you coming with?"
which seemed to flabbergast the Texans.

The linguist among us pondered for a bit and eventually decided that
the reason I spoke differently was that the massive number of German
immigrants to the Midwest affected the way people spoke English.

I had an English teacher once insist that it was not proper to end
sentences with prepositions and went into this discussion of Latin,
prepositions in Latin, grammar, and how it was impossible for
prepositions to not have nouns after it. I then mentioned that in
German, prepositions routinely ended sentences. He then informed me
wrily that that was German, not English. I then responded that since
English was a Germanic language, it made more sense for it to follow
German than to use a strict definition of a Latin word that describes
Latin grammar for a non-Romantic language. He did not seem pleased.

I have no beef against ending sentences with a preposition. That commonly happens in English. But I have to admit (as a Texan) that sentences like "Are you coming with?" sound incomplete to me.

I first encountered sentences of this sort on Mystery Science Theater 3000, which often has Minnesota/Wisconsin influence because of where it was filmed.

When I first heard Pearl Forrester (Mary Jo Pehl), as she was about to enter a black hole, tell Mike Nelson: "Oh, no, no, no, no, no. You’re coming with!", I thought it was a cute phrase deliberately exaggerated for commedic effect.

Maybe not.