Who’s Holding Back Who’s Hand?

by Jimmy Akin

in Mary

A reader writes:

I’m in RCIA right now, and I have a question that’s been bothering me for a while. I’m hoping you can shed some light. Someone on one of the combox threads posted the following:

“Our lady is holding back the hand of her beloved son from seeking retribution on those who wear the clerical cloth and those that are worshiping as humanists and not God himself.”

Now, the fellow in question may or may not be right, but I’m sure I’ve heard the first part of the quote before.

Here’s my question: I thought (as a Protestant) that it was Jesus who was staying the hand of God (out of love for His Son, God was withholding immediate judgment on the world). The quote makes it sound like it’s Mary who’s staying the hand of Jesus. I know the Church teaches that Mary intercedes for us with Christ, but this is starting to sound like a daisy chain. Help?

It’s understandable that this type of image would be a bit perplexing, especially if one is coming from a Protestant background, since many Protestants stress the idea of Jesus turning away God’s wrath from us.

Basically, the "holding back the hand" metaphor is just that: a metaphor. As such, it contains elements of truth, but it is also figurative. Mary is not literally holding back Jesus’ bodily hand to keep him from physically whacking erring clergymen. Neither is Jesus literally holding back God the Father’s hand to keep him from physically squashing us with it. That’s a metaphor.

The question is: What does the metaphor mean and what are its limits?

It would seem that the metaphor can refer to the fact that it is through Christ’s death (and his ongoing intercession at the "right hand" [another metaphor] of the Father) that we are treated more mercifully than we otherwise would be. In this sense we can say that Jesus restrains the "wrath" (bad consequences) that would otherwise come to us, for God has chosen to make his mercy toward us conditional on the work of his Son. Thus Jesus could be depicted as staying the Father’s wrath or holding back his hand.

But the metaphor also has limits. First, God doesn’t literally get angry. Anger is a passion, and God doesn’t have passions. When Scripture speaks of God’s anger, it’s using a metaphor to communicate the idea that he will allow bad consequences to occur to those on earth on account of their wrongdoing. He’s not literally seething with rage.

Quite the contrary! It is he who sent his Son to die for us on the Cross and thus provide salvation in spite of our sins! God sent his Son because he loves us and wants us to be saved. Thus he’s really on our side. It’s true that he will allow bad things to happen if we refuse his offer of grace (i.e., he will allow us to choose to reject him if we insist on it; he won’t force himself on us), but he wants to provide us with grace, and he sent his Son to make that possible.

Thus if we wish to view what is literally true, we must look past the metaphor of anger and of Jesus restraining his Father from squashing us in a fit of rage. That image is not literally true.

The content of the metaphor seems to consist in two points: (1) We deserve bad consequences for our sins but (2) we don’t receive these bad consequences because of Jesus’ work on our behalf.

Going beyond the metaphor, we also recognize (3) the Father loves us and (4) it is he himself who sent his Son so that we might receive mercy.

The same exact thing applies if we speak of Mary (or anyone else) restraining divine wrath. That’s a metaphor as well, and it communicates basically the same content, with the necessary changes folded in.

God wants to give us benefits, but he has willed that these benefits sometimes be contingent on the prayer of others. Thus he encourages the Christian community to be built up in love and concern for each other by giving it additional benefits when we are drawn out of ourselves to be concerned for and to pray for other people. It’s his reward system for turning our thoughts to him and to others, instead of focusing exclusively on our selves.

Based on this fact, it would be possible to modify the metaphor of restraining divine anger such that the intercession of Mary (or anyone else who prays) is pictured as what averts the bad consequences that would otherwise come. As the Mother of Christ, Mary is a particularly powerful intercessor, and so this metaphor is sometimes applied to her, but it could also be applied any time anyone’s prayers help us out.

Yet the content of the metaphor is basically the same: (1) We deserve bad consequences on account of our wrongdoings but (2) we don’t receive these bad consequences (at least in some cases) because of the intercession of another (Mary, in the case we are considering).

Looking beyond the metaphor, we also realize (3) that God (Father and Son and Holy Spirit) loves us and (4) it was God himself (Father and Son and Holy Spirit) who allows us to be blessed through the intercession of others, based on the work of Christ.

Hope this helps!

If you liked this post, you should join Jimmy's Secret Information Club to get more great info!


What is the Secret Information Club?I value your email privacy

Comments have been disabled for this post.
Sort: Newest | Oldest

You too, John.
Again, I am sure you well know that I have respect for your devotion to preserve the Traditional Teachings of the Church and, above all, the TLM, which, as I've said in the past, I miss very, very much.
The sacred silence, holy reverence and distinct piety I had often observed in TLM members of a Catholic parish that used to celebrate it (formerly listed in Ecclesia Dei) has now been replaced with gum-chewing, hippie-music playing, t-shirt wearing, "talk-all-you-like-in-church", "have no reverence for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass since it's only a Symbol" folks; all due to certain rogue priests and laity out there.
Yet, we need to change the Church from within and not engage in schism and, above all, calumny or scandal.
Remain loyal to the Church, John; by doing so, you remain loyal to Christ.
God bless, John.

Gods love for all of us Tim-And you as well Esau!
Enjoy your day-warm up here on the east coast is welcome at last

I'm for that, John.
I think the level of discourse on Catholic blogs often does not give the best witness to the world. There are many people silently watching, and when we get personal or make over-the-top accusations, questioning the intentions of our brothers and sisters in Christ, we break the Great Command of Christ to "Love one another".
God have mercy on all of His children, through Jesus Christ.

Again, as in my previous post regarding apparitions:
When folks start putting too much emphasis on an apparition, we should caution that because even apparitions that are approved (Lourdes, Fatima) do not require divine faith. In fact, we cannot put divine faith in an apparition. Why? Because it is a private revelation – it does not merit divine faith. And so even those that are approved, we have to remember to keep them circumspect. How much more so those that have not been approved at all?
Posted by: Esau | Feb 14, 2007 2:23:07 PM

Tim-Let us not argue
It is wasted energy that we both do not need to expend, we all can discuss things rationale
I always respect all's opinion, and do read all posts when responding, and I never start the antagonistic garbage that others as illustrated above go for. I do have to defend myself and my integrity when called a name-but it only wastes space on the thread that others do not want to read
God bless you and all

John -
"I think I clearly proved that this was a church sanctioned apparition, not a "metaphore", "
Nobody ever said that the apparition of La Salette was "a metaphor" or that it was not recognized by the Church. They were saying that in the apparition, when Mary refers to the hand of her Son, SHE is using a metaphor. She is not literally, physically holding Jesus' hand. Metaphors are just a kind of symbolic speech.
Private revelations - Church approved or not - are PRIVATE, and it is not required that any Catholic put their personal faith in the spiritual visions of another. I love Our Lady, and I believe wholeheartedly in her appearances at Lourdes, Guadalupe, and elsewhere. But you are not allowed to treat these apparitions as if they are on the level of Holy Scripture. Nobody has to measure up to your personal idea of the meaning or significance of La Salette.
I KNOW the Masons are real. It would be strange to believe they were not. I simply reject out-of-hand that Vatican II was in ANY way the result of any kind of Masonic plot within the Church.
Are the Mason's historically anti-Catholic? Absolutely. Are they any kind of real threat to the Church now? No. I also reject your assertion that hidden Masonic influence has corrupted the leadership of the Church since Vatican II. One bone-headed priest (or a handful) becoming a Mason can't be taken as proof of ANYTHING, except the bone-headedness of the priest.
So, what you have "proven" was already obvious to all, it is your understanding of the implications of these things that is distorted.
The problem with the Church is you and me, not some shadowy Masonic plot.

Are you supposed to thank people for "gossip"(now embracing Masonic membership to the highest ranks)? Or even if it is true, is it worth sharing? Hmm. No thank you John.

Some Day
Can you see that people are tired of the name calling that you and others continue to resort back to-cant you do better in your Apologetics than name calling? Again, I belive in the Deposit of Faith and Tradition unchanged by man even after a so called renewal. Protestants had their "renewal" some 400 years ago. If I am in error now in adhering to the faith, tradition and beliefs of the church as held for centuries-then that is the same as saying the church was in error before 1962 and that can not be

Give up?
I think I clearly proved that this was a church sanctioned apparition, not a "metaphore", as well as proved the Masons are a true threat to the church for centuries, are real unlike others who think it is a conspiracy theory. Unfortunatly SOME clergy in the church are now embracing Masonic membership to the highest ranks, as evidence by todays CWS
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=49344

Guess John "Calvin" gave up huh?

Could people please STOP hijacking the comboxes to carry on their flamewars? If you're that desperate to insult each other, send nasty emails.
brigidmarie:
That's just it; it's not personal insults that is the focus here or, furthermore, what is being attended to; if you actually cared to examine the posts, it is the calumny being unjustly done to very cherished beliefs and priniciples such as our Catholic Faith, the Catholic Church, and such holy folks like Mother Teresa and John Paul II -- people that (at least, some of us) have the highest respects for.
Such things are very personal and are a part of family. Now, I wonder if someone were to do such injustice to things you hold dear, such as your family or people you love, if you would actually allow such awful things or if you would go ahead and stand up for things you believe in!

Could people please STOP hijacking the comboxes to carry on their flamewars? If you're that desperate to insult each other, send nasty emails. But it's really rude to keep dragging these discussions off-topic so you can further your grudges.

John,
"I wait for CA to correct their so called encyclopedia tarnishing this event as a Rad Trad event only, and the damage they are causing to the Marians who have devoted their lives to this cause"
We wait for you to learn how to read and comprehend what you have read. No where does the CA article that Jimmy Akin wrote say that La Salette is a Rad Trad event only.
The "so called encyclopedia" was the Catholic Encyclopedia but of course you know better than that too.
You may abuse your free will as you choose. I will stand upon the rock obedient to the keeper of the keys, the Vicar of Christ.
"Foolish then, is he who departs from the Vicar of Christ Crucified, who has the keys of the Blood, or who goes against him . . . Even though the pope were satan incarnate himself, I may not lift up my head against him, but I must always humble myself" -St. Catherine of Siena
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Dan, apparently for this thread, I'm a blue herring with yellow fins. :)
Someday, the lack of seriousness was intentional as part of several people who I think were trying the same, to defuse this thread from going where it usually goes. (for which you needed a mind that jumps like a grasshopper to paraphrase from one of Dick Francis' novels) Just keep swimming is from the movie Finding Nemo. I'm not sure where Bill's strawberries came from.

"Talk to the Hand!"
P.S. I want to eat pastrami sandwhich for dinner.

JR said as Tim has tried with his Antisemitic hook in their best imitation of the Pharisies :
John, to clarify what your position is to us, could you please say whether you beleive Pope Benedict XVI is truly the Pope, with the same authority as say Pope Pius X or Leo XVI. Same with JPII.
Also, would you say Pope Benedict is a or the Antichrist?"
Yes JR I do believe they are the Popes and I love B16 very much. My feelings for JPII are much less, as he compromised the faith in many many instances
Now after reading these edifying comment that have been posted such as food and other lame discussions, I have clearly done the following:
"PROPHECY OF OUR LADY OF LA SALETTE
SEPTEMBER 19, 1846
"If my people do wish to submit themselves, I am forced to let go of the hand of My Son. It is so heavy and weighs me down that I can no longer keep hold of it...I make an urgent appeal to the earth...The Church will be in eclipse, the world will be in dismay...Woe to the inhabitants of the earth!...The fire of Heaven will fall...All the universe will be struck with terror and many will let themselves be led astray because they have not worshipped the true Christ...he, the king of kings of darkness, will have plunged with all his followers into the everlasting chasms of hell. And then water and fire will purge the earth and consume all the works of mens' pride and all will be renewed. God will be served and glorified."
The apparation at La Salette has been fully approved as true by the church by Pius IX and Leo XIII, this is not a hoax and to deny such would be to deny Our Lady.
In the years after, with modernism taking root and many Catholics within the church who considered themselves free thinkers as well as the Masons from outside, distorted the message, as you all do here with your comical disdain for anything that would have to make you kneel once again to receive your Lord on the tongue as well as other steadfast traditions and customs that have been altered and customized to suit todays sinful modern world.
And then I proved to Tim, who joked that the Masons were a "Conspiracy"-that yes they did and still do exist as Pope Leo XIII wrote 2 encyclicals as well as Pope Pius X, a Saint who warned us against Modernism
I wait for CA to correct their so called encyclopedia tarnishing this event as a Rad Trad event only, and the damage they are causing to the Marians who have devoted their lives to this cause

However I thought John also unless I'm mistaken (can't spot it above right now) more or less defended the interpretation of Rome becoming the seat of the Antichrist as meaning the Pope (or antipope?) being the Antichrist.
J.R. Stoodley,
Read the collection of quotes I posted above from John's past posts.
For example:
In such a situation they are obliged to disobey those who falsely speak in Peter's name. To obey modernist and heretical "popes" is to declare that they are "one hierarchical person" with our Lord and hence that Christ teaches falsely - quod absit!
Posted by: John | Oct 16, 2006 3:27:41 AM

J.R. Stoodley,
I hope all is well with you! If you get John to actually answer your questions I will be very impressed.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Inocencio,
This I've perceived. I figured he had the general SSPX viepoint. However I thought John also unless I'm mistaken (can't spot it above right now) more or less defended the interpretation of Rome becoming the seat of the Antichrist as meaning the Pope (or antipope?) being the Antichrist.
I wanted to know if this was in fact the case or if I had misinterpreted something. I think its a good idea to know who we are dealing with here.

John's position seems to be that a pope only has authority if it is John-given.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

John, to clarify what your position is to us, could you please say whether you beleive Pope Benedict XVI is truly the Pope, with the same authority as say Pope Pius X or Leo XVI. Same with JPII.
Also, would you say Pope Benedict is a or the Antichrist?

Is it me or Mr.Jimmy deleted the combox in the "soul selling"post?
Well whatever. I guess it could have gone bad.

John,
I hope you realize now that not only did Jimmy Akin write the article he linked to, he wrote it over 7 years ago. You have not brought up anything "new" or "secret".
"You have lost this debate"
In a debate you have to listen to the other side, John, not just keep talking and worse repeat what has been refuted. You have convinced yourself, we get that part.
Jimmy Akin's article hit the nail on the head and it is very obvious.
"In a way, radical traditionalists who charge the Church has apostatized are committing the Protestant error: To justify their separation from the Church, Protestant leaders charged it with having "apostatized" and become a heretical Church. We know because of Christ’s promise that this cannot happen (Matt. 16:18), but the claim was made nonetheless. Radical traditionalists who commit the same error do so for the same reason: to advance their own cause and—in some cases—their own schism from the Church."
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Apologies, Jimmy, for my part in all this back-and-forth with John.
I can only pray for the day when John finally realizes just how horrible and untrue his comments are about the Church, Mother Teresa, Pope John Paul II as well as our former popes.
God bless.

That is right Mr. Jimmy.
It reeks with "me"ness.

The temperature on this thread needs to settle down pronto.

Finally, you speak the Truth! (although I doubt that's you; you would never be so honest with us)

I can only laugh at all of you as you accuse me of ranting and ramblings while Esau's cut and paste jobs go on for miles, and the last 15 posts have nothing to do with the topic but are nothing but hate filled posts directed at me
JOHN (jtnova):
Could it possibly be that my posts that contain the cut-and-pastes is as you describe "nothing but hate filled posts" BECAUSE of the very fact that THEY CONSIST LARGELY OF YOUR CURRENT AND PAST "HATE-FILLED" COMMENTS???
Thus, you are FINALLY looking in the mirror for once!

What is this "just keep swimming"
What does it mean?
I guess I missed it when first used.

What is this "just keep swimming"
What does it mean?
I guess I missed it when first used.

"...any non meat suggestions for supper?"
Well, Dan, there's always fish, but I like vegetable soup, or vegetable stir-fry. Baked potatoes with broccoli and cheese and stuff.
I had spinach pizza for lunch.

I can only laugh at all of you as you accuse me of ranting and ramblings while Esau's cut and paste jobs go on for miles, and the last 15 posts have nothing to do with the topic but are nothing but hate filled posts directed at me
JOHN (jtnova):
Could it possibly be that my posts that contain the cut-and-pastes is as you describe "nothing but hate filled posts" BECAUSE of the very fact that THEY CONSIST LARGELY OF YOUR CURRENT AND PAST "HATE-FILLED" COMMENTS???
Thus, you are FINALLY looking in the mirror for once!

Ahh, but the Masons that's... that's where I had them. They laughed at me and made jokes but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt and with... geometric logic... that there is indeed Masonic which today evolved to Modernistic or progressive elements in control of the church. I, I, I know now they were only trying to protect some fellow clergy...
Just keep swimming Just keep swimming...

I am very hungry.
any non meat suggestions for supper?
God bless you.

Thanks for mentioning "The Caine Mutiny", David. It reminded me where I left my decoder ring: in the back of the refrigerator, behind the dish of strawberries.

John,
I am not dening the inimaginable influence of the masons and similar things.
500 years of decadence has been orchestrated.
But you are awfully imprudent.
And without a true compenetration of what all this means. You just want to be right.
And you are wrong. To look at the truth in way other than God sees the truth is false.
You think you are the counter-revolution of all this evil, and you are not.
You don't even know what being a counter-revolutionary is all about.
You lack love of God in your words.
And I don't mean kumbaya lets hold hands love.
I am not dissing you. Just pointing out you are argueing bad.

I can only laugh at all of you as you accuse me of ranting and ramblings while Esau's cut and paste jobs go on for miles, and the last 15 posts have nothing to do with the topic but are nothing but hate filled posts directed at me
Take a look in the mirror as I have clearly illustrated that there is indeed Masonic which today evolved to Modernistic or progressive elements in control of the church and many of you here deny this, as Tim so woefully illustrated where he considers Papal encyclicals of only 100 years or so warning of these influences as being some sort of conspiracy, and then tries to throw other hooks out there
You have lost this debate, and this aparition and the warnings from our Lady is NOT a metaphor as Jimmy has stated, it is a true warning, as she warned three young children at Fatima likewise of pending doom unless Russia is consecrated to the Sacred Heart

Dude, this WHOLE combox has gone wayyyyyyy off topic.
BTW, good point with "The Caine Mutiny" reference, Bill.

I hope your not thinking that there is personality cult to Jimmy or myself, I really can't tell what you are hiddenly trying to say.
Which ever it is, you have severe lack of seriousness.
And I don't mean not laughing.

I hope your not thinking that there is personality cult to Jimmy or myself, I really can't tell what you are hiddenly trying to say.
Which ever it is, you have severe lack of seriousness.
And I don't mean not laughing.

"Correction:
Your comment, that is, and not You're."
Aw, Esau, that changes the entire meaning of your hidden message. Now I've gotta go find my Jimmy Akin Personality Cult Secret Decoder Ring! And I don't remember where I left it! (Swims off in a huff...)

Correction:
Your comment, that is, and not You're.

Some Day:
You're comment:
Because the Old Testament, except for the Great Flood, has nothing on what is about to happen.
It immediately reminded me of this passage from Scripture:
Matt 24: 29-30
29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light and the stars shall fall from heaven and the powers of heaven shall be moved.
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven. And then shall all tribes of the earth mourn: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with much power and majesty.
Of course, the following is also mentioned:
Matt 13:41
41 The Son of man shall send his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all scandals, and them that work iniquity.

John,
love for Cardinal Law-In straight defiance of Our Lady??
As soon as you said that I knew you are a simple lay man who knows nothing about the Church today.
Cardinal Law is innocent. He was set up because he was one of the good ones and the powers that be cannot stand that.
I know the apparition of La Sallete.
Probably with info you don't know.
But I was taught to speak with prudence.
Now is not the time to go around shouting that.
There will be and very soon.
For those who can understand, just hold that in.
When the time comes, then let go.
And as a little crash course in Vatican diplomacy,
the best and oldest, compare Fr. Marciel of the Legionaries and Cardinal Law.
In Her prudence and maternal wisdom, She condemed Fr. Marciel without saying it out loud.
Cardinal Law, being set up for his conservative line, and the Vatican knowing this, was brought to the Vatican and made an archpriest of one of the most famous basillicas in the world.
Compare and contrast, and if you don't conclude that Cardinal Law is innocent, then you condem yourself to having no respectable credability in your ramblings.
And this is just what I am telling you to learn a bit. There is more proof than outsider conlusions.
You sir are product of the forces that be.
The Church was stuck in neutral for a while, the people got angry and bored, so then comes the rock band and the people compared the priest mumbuling "Deus in aj."and then the priest with long hair and an electric guitar, and followed the rocker because he was dynamic.
And you are the guy that stayed in neutral.
The others where on overdrive, but in the wrong direction.
Don't be a reactionary, be a counter-revolutionary, fight, but like Our Lord.
The pharisees wanted the old and nothing more (among other things) and Our Lord perfected the old.
I agree that there were turns for the worst.
Progressivism took control. There was a need to renew, but definetly not the way it was done.
But look at this website. I love these people.
They reanimate the past in todays future.
They remind me of the Benedictines.
Just that they are converting todays world from a worst thing.
Check it out. Check the brazilian flag on the right upper corner too, that is the best sight.
www.heralds.ca
www.heralds.us
Tell me, don't you think they are well aware of the prophecy of La Sallete.
When the time comes, and it will soon,
then we can let the world see God's justice manifested in the faithful of the Church.
For now we fight the hardest part,
believing God will intervene, and praying for him to do it soon, and not only that, but to get ready.
Because the Old Testament, except for the Great Flood, has nothing on what is about to happen.
Amen Veni Ira Tua!

Mary Kay,
What do you look like?
God bless you.

Just keep swimming, swimming, swimming. Just keep swimming.

Esau, you're way cold. Bill is warmer. Everybody has to swim down! Swim down to avoid the troll. (courtesy of Gil in the aquarium)
Bill, aw why didja have to go and tell about my yellowfin tuna? (stomps off as well as a tuna can stomp)

Now, JOHN (jtnova):
If you don't actually consider these elements in your posts as the "usual slander to go off topic" that you, ironically, have accused us of; then, truly, your reasoning has fallen short of your faith (that is, whatever there is left to begin with).

Unfortunately, Mr. Sullivan, there is no other effective method of highlighting than bolding.
The bolding merely serves to highlight core elements in John's posts that are clearly calumnious in nature.
One more such post from John:
As far as Scott Hahn -if you ever read his bio he HATED catholics for years and then came over to Catholicism-do you not think he forgot his sola scriptura way of thought over night? Does he not run the bible study on EWTN? I am not questioning his catholicism as he is probably a better Catholic than the cradle catholics -as I do recall it was the Protestants who stood up against the media onslaught against the Passion of the Christ while Catholics and JPII (who actually met with Abe Foxman) said nothing, so I do admire many of them
Posted by: John | Oct 27, 2006 1:03:14 PM

Previous post:

Next post: