Elections, Part 2: Against Obama advocacy

by SDG

in Government

Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5 | Part 6

SDG here (not Jimmy).

In my previous post I said "There are good reasons not to be thrilled with either of the two major candidates." I want to reiterate that. I don’t see the election this year as a holy crusade of Good Guys Against Bad Guys.

Specifically, I don’t see any Good Guys in this race, or even among the also-rans of the primaries. I’m skeptical of all the candidates — and of the judgment of anyone who isn’t. At this point, I believe any sensible person ought to be profoundly uneasy about all possible outcomes. I don’t begin to understand the much-mocked quasi-messianic euphoria on the one side, and on the other side, despite some energizing of the base after the VP pick, there is still plenty of room for misgivings.

The story of the hour, of course, is the historic financial crisis and the federal takeover of Fannie and Freddie. Fingers are pointing in all directions. Proposed narratives that lay all the blame on a single doorstep — the Administration or the GOP generally, the Congress or the Dems generally, Wall Street — strike me as dubious. Narratives that blame the abuse of money and power by all of the above, not necessarily in equal degree, seem much more plausible. I won’t muddy the waters with whatever ignorant notions I might have about how much guilt to assign where.

More to the point, it seems likely to me that there is no persuasive sense that either ticket necessarily represents the obviously right team to deal with the crisis. Any effort to cast the financial crisis as an obviously compelling reason to vote one way or the other would seem to suggest either extraordinary insight or else conjectural special pleading. Until I have reason to believe otherwise, my money (whatever that turns out to be worth next week) will be on the latter.

There are undoubtedly serious issues to be explored (and obfuscated) here. How much power does the executive branch actually need here? How much will they get? How may it be used or misused? How badly and unnecessarily may taxpayers be shafted, and what if anything can or will be done to minimize this? How egregiously have the rich and powerful abused their influence to their own advantage over the years, and what if anything can or will be done about that?

These are complex questions, and Catholic teaching, rooted in divine revelation, emphasizes that the enormity of the perennial abuse of the poor by the rich. There is also a long, sad track record suggesting that the practical answers are unlikely to approximate justice to any great extent. Rail against this by all means. Just don’t suppose that either ticket represents the white hats here to save us.

Other important problems loom. Ongoing conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq pose serious issues. Was it right to go to Iraq in the first place? How much unnecessary harm has been caused by bad or wrong decisions, including treatment of prisoners? What is the best course of action now? What approach to health care is best? How can we best care for the environment? What about other conflicts and crises around the globe? What about energy? And so on, and on.

With all these legitimate and pressing concerns, it may be understandable that some may look with fatigue at seemingly long-unchanging battle lines between well-entrenched sides in an issue like abortion, where too often candidates and politicians have offered lip service rather than leadership, and conclude that, in the absence of real hope for change on this subject, the political contest ought to be about other things.

After all — the style of thinking goes — has any pro-life candidate of either party at any level of government ever made enough of a difference on abortion to warrant hope that the outcome of this election might matter too? In this presidential election, how much will it really matter with regard to the unborn which party takes the White House? What about the argument of Catholics like Douglas Kmiec and Morning’s Minion who suggest that Obama’s overall agenda is either unlikely to affect abortion numbers, or might even help reduce abortion rates more than any pro-life action from McCain?

This style of thinking is understandable. It is also, I submit, fundamentally flawed and contrary to authentic Catholic principles.

Let’s review some basic considerations.

We all know that in Catholic moral and social thinking not all moral issues are of equal weight, nor do all involve moral absolutes. For example, in an oft-quoted passage from his 2004 memo to Cardinal McCarrick, then-Cardinal Ratzinger, now Benedict XVI, contrasted the grave and intrinsic evils of abortion and euthanasia with the less black-and-white issues surrounding capital punishment and waging war:

Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not, however, with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

In this passage Ratzinger is addressing moral principles in the context of worthiness to receive communion, and while he excludes the possibility of a diversity of opinion on the morality of abortion and euthanasia, he does not specifically address the question of support for or opposition to laws legitimizing or proscribing abortion and euthanasia.

However, in his landmark encyclical Evangelium Vitae (The Gospel of Life), which develops the ideas of the "culture of life" and the "culture of death," Pope John Paul II argues that the right to life is "the fundamental right and source of all other rights," and that the "first and most immediate application" of the connection between civil law and moral law absolutely excludes "laws which legitimize the direct killing of innocent human beings through abortion or euthanasia":

Now the first and most immediate application of this teaching concerns a human law which disregards the fundamental right and source of all other rights which is the right to life, a right belonging to every individual. Consequently, laws which legitimize the direct killing of innocent human beings through abortion or euthanasia are in complete opposition to the inviolable right to life proper to every individual … In this way the State contributes to lessening respect for life and opens the door to ways of acting which are destructive of trust in relations between people. Laws which authorize and promote abortion and euthanasia are therefore radically opposed not only to the good of the individual but also to the common good; as such they are completely lacking in authentic juridical validity. (EV 72)

Because the right to life is the ground of all other rights, efforts to seek or pursue the "common good" while denying or undermining the right to life are fundamentally fraudulent:

It is impossible to further the common good without acknowledging and defending the right to life, upon which all the other inalienable rights of individuals are founded and from which they develop. A society lacks solid foundations when, on the one hand, it asserts values such as the dignity of the person, justice and peace, but then, on the other hand, radically acts to the contrary by allowing or tolerating a variety of ways in which human life is devalued and violated, especially where it is weak or marginalized. Only respect for life can be the foundation and guarantee of the most precious and essential goods of society, such as democracy and peace. (EV 101)

Again, from John Paul II’s Apostolic Exhortation Christifideles Laici (The Lay Faithful):

The inviolability of the person which is a reflection of the absolute inviolability of God, finds its primary and fundamental expression in the inviolability of human life. Above all, the common outcry, which is justly made on behalf of human rights — for example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture — is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination. (CL 38)

The US bishops pastoral statement Faithful Citizenship concurs:

There are some things we must never do, as individuals or as a society … A prime example is the intentional taking of innocent human life, as in abortion and euthanasia. In our nation, "abortion and euthanasia have become preeminent threats to human dignity because they directly attack life itself, the most fundamental human good and the condition for all others" (Living the Gospel of Life, no. 5). It is a mistake with grave consequences to treat the destruction of innocent human life merely as a matter of individual choice. A legal system that violates the basic right to life on the grounds of choice is fundamentally flawed. (FC 22)

Faithful Citizenship concludes: "The direct and intentional destruction of human life from the moment of conception until natural death is always wrong and is not just one issue among many. It must always be opposed" (FC 28).

It is not enough, then, to hold that abortion and euthanasia are intrinsic evils. Catholics must also regard laws legitimizing them as intrinsic evils antithetical to the foundational principles of civil society and law. A culture in which intrinsically evil acts attacking life itself are claimed as basic human freedoms — a legal system in which such acts are protected (and even funded) as basic human rights — is corrupted and poisoned at the very root. It is a society "without foundations," a house built on sand. Such a society can only represent a culture of death.

This is the crucial flaw in Kmiec’s approach. Here is Kmiec’s pitch:

Obama does not advocate the reversal of Roe vs. Wade, and orthodox Catholics do. We do for the very clear reason given by [Cardinal Francis] George in a Sept. 2 letter — namely, "one cannot favor the legal status quo on abortion and also be working for the common good."

That’s exactly right, but what’s wrong is for Republican partisans to claim this to be Obama’s position. It’s not. Rather, Obama believes there are alternative ways to promote the "culture of life," even given the law’s sanction of abortion. …

Both reasonable extrapolations from Centers for Disease Control and Prevention statistics and a recent Catholic in Alliance for the Common Good study find that improving the economic well-being of the average family in general, and of the women facing the abortion decision in particular, can save unborn lives.

In these brief sentences, Kmiec radically distorts both Obama’s agenda and Catholic teaching. Technically, it is true that Obama does not merely "favor the legal status quo on abortion." Rather, he is firmly committed to further solidifying and advancing the legal status of abortion by signing the Freedom of Choice Act, which would apparently eradicate various limitations on abortion allowed by post-Roe Supreme Court decisions. He would also expand public funding for abortion (e.g., rescinding the Mexico City policy), and would surely seek to liberalize access to abortion in other ways.

More fundamentally, though, talk of "alternative ways to promote the ‘culture of life’" while actively promoting abortion is rank contradiction. It is not enough merely "not to favor the legal status quo on abortion." As John Paul II wrote, "It is impossible to further the common good without acknowledging and defending the right to life." Kmiec’s argument seems downright disingenuous.

Even on a pragmatic level, the calculus of concluding that this pro-abortion candidate’s overall agenda might possibly impact abortion numbers more positively than that anti-abortion candidate’s overall agenda is dubious enough. Admittedly, if it were really true, and known to be true, it might be considered a knotty issue. Certainly the sheer scale of abortion numbers — millions of guiltless human lives legally snuffed out every year — dwarfs the enormity of other even other per se equally grave issues like euthanasia and ESCR, as well as serious issues of non-intrinsic evil such as the death penalty and the war in Iraq. Anything that reduces the incidence of abortion is obviously to that extent a good thing.

However, in the first place, the argument assumes what is at best unknowable, if not outright dubious. Who really knows what will happen to the abortion rate in the next four or eight years even regardless which party is in office, or what effect any particular administration’s policies will or won’t have on it? If we can’t even say for sure why abortion rates have behaved as they have in the recent past, how can we claim to plot varying trajectories going into the future? If it’s all about actual outcomes, who knows how a candidate’s stated agenda will affect his performance in office — or how successful he will be at implementing his agenda?

It may be true, as Kmiec argues, that "improving the economic well-being of the average family in general, and of the women facing the abortion decision in particular, can save unborn lives." Of course, it’s also true that the "economic well-being of the average family in general" rests at least significantly on factors beyond any president’s control, even assuming that Obama would pursue the right policies successfully while McCain would not.

More pointedly, actions like rescinding the Mexico City policy (which Obama would certainly do) and signing the Freedom of Choice Act (which he is determined to do, and which he may well have at least as much chance of succeeding at doing as "improving the economic well-being of the average family in general") would cost unborn lives. How exactly does Kmiec’s calculus account for that?

In the end, though, what makes Kmiec’s reasoning not just dubious but finally indefensible is that the root issue is not merely numbers, but the radical corruption of the first principle of justice in law. Even if, theoretically, a pro-choice candidate’s agenda were to reduce the incidence of abortion, it would be gains built on sand as long as the law continues to call evil good and good evil. It is the first and most fundamental responsibility of civil society to safeguard the right to life of every member of the community. The law must recognize this first and most fundamental duty before it can begin to fulfill it.

In our society today, the juridical fiat, functioning as law, that the right to end innocent human life is guaranteed in our nation’s foundational legal document subverts the whole basis of civil law and jurisprudence more critically than any other injustice we face. This is not to elevate abortion above other life issues in terms of moral gravity; it’s just that we are not (yet) burdened by a Supreme Court decision positing iron-clad constitutional warrant for, say, the right to "die with dignity." In American rule of law as we know it today, the fiction of the "right to choose" is the knife in the heart of justice. Or the scissors in the back of the skull.

Just as the culture of death is not simply a matter of numbers, it is also not simply a matter of existing pro-abortion legislation and jurisprudence. Political advocacy from candidates and politicians militating against the right to life, including advocacy of abortion, euthanasia, ESCR and therapeutic cloning, is also a taproot of the culture of death. Above and beyond the policies they implement, simply by espousing abortion and euthanasia as "rights" — by defining freedom in the public square in terms of "freedom" to end human life — candidates and politicians actively foster and advance the culture of death. Such advocacy is to political life what pro-abortion legislation and jurisprudence is in the legal sphere — a cancer at the root.

For reasons to be discussed later, we can’t write in stone that a politician who advocates an intrinsically immoral policy, even legalized abortion, must always be opposed by all Catholics. (If nothing else, I will argue that a pro-choice politician may always legitimately be supported over a more pro-choice politician, even if in particular cases other courses of action may be judged preferable. A less cancerous root is preferable to a more cancerous one.)

However, one cannot glibly reason that abortion numbers are likely to be unchanged or even improved by a candidate’s overall agenda, and so his pro-abortion advocacy doesn’t matter. It matters gravely. It is worse than having a hate-spewing racist or a pornographer in office. It is poisonous. A candidate who advocates legalized abortion, euthanasia, ESCR or human cloning gravely disqualifies himself for public service, not just for what he or she may do but for what he or she stands for.

Thus the Vatican’s Archbishop Raymond Burke, recently named Prefect of the Apostolic Signatura (roughly the Vatican equivalent of the Supreme Court’s Chief Justice):

We cannot accept for ourselves a political leadership which does not safeguard the inviolable dignity of human life. Are there other issues? Of course there are, but the primary issue has to be the question of human life.

Does this mean that we should settle for lip service? Is it enough that candidates tell us what we want to hear once every four years and then go their merry way till the next election? For that matter, doesn’t McCain support ESCR?

No, we shouldn’t, and no, it isn’t, and yes, he does, or at least he has, though with qualifications, and there are signs that McCain may be shifting on ESCR (again, more later). I’m not now making the case for McCain, but the case against Obama (or any candidate with an Obama-like agenda). It is enough for now to note that while McCain’s qualified support of ESCR is a serious strike against him, Obama’s unqualified support is even more serious. On every issue touching directly on the most fundamental right and the source of all other rights, Obama’s stance is diametrically opposed to the foundations of the culture of life.

Very simply, Obama is the candidate of the culture of death. He’s probably the purest culture-of-death presidential candidate in American history.

Does that mean Catholics can or should support McCain simply because he’s not Obama? For now, let’s just say: It’s a start. I have more to say about this,  and will continue when I can.

Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5 | Part 6

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No matter what canidate we ever have, I hope they look into our over spending in every area. We should investigate all areas, for example mental health and really see exactly what we are paying for.
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Everyone seems to forget that as one of his first acts as President, George Bush added unborn children as eligible for insurance under the S-CHIP Children's Health Program. Thus, the prenatal visits and delivery of the child are covered for poor women. As soon as the Dems took control of the house 2 years ago, they decided to make changes to the S-CHIP program by among others deleting coverage for unborn children! And guess who voted with the Dem majority? None other than Barack. And who has saved many lives through his vetos of the Dem SCHIP bill-George Bush! A vote for Barack is a vote for certain death for many 1000s of children!

Thanks TMC. In addition to dead bodies, it seems animals, property, hope and opinions are also generally considered worthy of respect and protection.

Dear Chuck,
The answer is, no. For instance, a dead body, which no longer has a soul is, still, nevertheless, worthy of respect, for the fact that it once housed a soul. Likewise, a body that will house a human soul is worthy of respect.
The Chicken

Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body.
If a person is not truly conceived at "conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata" but only later "when the soul is created and infused into the body", then when the Church teaches that human life must be respected and protected "from the moment of conception", is the Church saying that such respect and protection is not called for at "conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata" but only later?

Dear CT,
You wrote:
I wonder btw what this would have meant for the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.
Answer: nothing.
The doctrine states (Catholic Encyclopedia):
The subject of this immunity from original sin is the person of Mary at the moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into her body.
"...in the first instance of her conception..."
The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.
The Chicken

TMC,
In case you missed it, the Roman Catechism in what I quoted is saying that in the ordinary course of nature the rational soul is united to the body only after a "certain lapse of time", but that in Jesus' case due to a miracle, it was as you noted something that happened without such a lapse in time. I wonder btw what this would have meant for the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. Presumably, even though this doctrine was not dogmatized until later, it was a belief of Christians then. But yet this remark from the Catechism would seem to indicate that at that time, the magisterium itself was implicitly against the doctrine ... which might be a problem for Catholic apologetics ... unless it's like how Cheney is implicitly exempt from a presidential order that only mentions the president as exempt ....
I agree with you that it is not binding today and I have no idea what binding character it may have had back then. I also agree with you that the current statements of the church are "more circumspect", in particular affirming as much as possible with respect to the force with which the unborn must be treated with respect and dignity while stopping just short of "express philosophical committments" (cf. Donum Vitae ... btw if not making express philosophical committments on this matter is of no consequence, then there is hardly reason for DV to mention that fact -- so for DV to be reasonable there, this fact must be something of consequence -- if not for practical morality, at least for the metaphysis that may be directly or indirectly or tangentially related to it)

"The notion that when presented with an argument for denying A, I would immediately deny A or suspend judgment as to A is, with affectionate respect, silly."
Umm... did I imply this somewhere?

I do not think that the Catechism of Trent is binding, de fide, but I could be wrong about this.
In any case, I find the following point interesting:
As the body of Christ was formed of the pure blood of the immaculate Virgin without the aid of man, as we have already said, and by the sole operation of the Holy Ghost, so also, at the moment of His Conception, His soul was enriched with an overflowing fullness of the Spirit of God, and a superabundance of all graces. For God gave not to Him, as to others adorned with holiness and grace, His Spirit by measure, as St. John testifies but poured into His soul the plenitude of all graces so abundantly that of his fullness we all have received.
So, apparently, in 1560 (or so), this document posits that, at least for Christ, at the moment of conception, his soul was also given.
As I say, since the current opinion of the Church as to when ensoulment occurs is more circumspect, I have my doubts about the binding nature of the document. Any knowledgeable person want to clarify?
The Chicken

TMC,
The catholic Roman Catechism addresses the issue you brought up as well as the rhetoric of MP:
In this mystery we perceive that some things were done which transcend the order of nature, some by the power of nature. Thus, in believing that the body of Christ was formed from the most pure blood of His Virgin Mother we acknowledge the operation of human nature, this being a law common to the formation of all human bodies, that they should be formed from the blood of the mother.
But what surpasses the order of nature and human comprehension is, that as soon as the Blessed Virgin assented to the announcement of the Angel in these words, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done unto me according to thy word, the most sacred body of Christ was immediately formed, and to it was united a rational soul enjoying the use of reason; and thus in the same instant of time He was perfect God and perfect man. That this was the astonishing and admirable work of the Holy Ghost cannot be doubted; for according to the order of nature the rational soul is united to the body only after a certain lapse of time.
Again -- and this should overwhelm us with astonishment -- as soon as the soul of Christ was united to His body, the Divinity became united to both; and thus at the same time His body was formed and animated, and the Divinity united to body and soul.
Hence, at the same instant He was perfect God and perfect man, and the most Holy Virgin, having at the same moment conceived God and man, is truly and properly called Mother of God and man. This the Angel signified to her when he said: Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High. The event verified the prophecy of Isaias: Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son. Elizabeth also declared the same truth when" being filled with the Holy Ghost, she understood the Conception of the Son of God, and said: Whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tcreed03.htm
I'd like to clarify to Tim J just one of the misconceptions he had of my views. I believe all beliefs must have something that grounds the rightness of holding them for it to be right to hold them -- after all for something to be right, it would seem something must ground that rightness. However I do not believe that the source of that grounding need in all cases be "reasoned argument." That fact however does not itself make one immune to challenges to belief.
Another point I'd like to clarify is that when one has a belief A and one discovers a basis to deny A, then the firmness with one retains in believing A should be affected in correspondence with the likelihood you envision that that basis or some other basis is indeed a basis to deny A versus the likelihood you envision that the basis you are aware for A and other bases for A you may be unaware of are in combination able to withstand whatever hold the basis to deny A. The notion that when presented with an argument for denying A, I would immediately deny A or suspend judgment as to A is, with affectionate respect, silly. I remember arguments that people presented when I was a little youngster for proving that 1+1=3 -- I'm sure many of you have seen them. I may have on first glance seen the argument and was unable to see any flaw in it. That did not cause me to think that 1+1=3, but rather cause me to think that I failed to see its flaw. IF OTOH, if all the mathematicians in the world examine that argument and fail to see any flaw, then that would likely be a proof that the mathematics involved there is inconsistent. But even in that case I would not think 1+1=3, I would think rather that the mathematics applied there included inconsistent systems. If OTOH it were shown that PA entailed that 1+1=3, then that would involve the inconsistency of PA and that WOULD be a major problem and WOULD, rightly, cause me and others to have significant doubts about various things.
I'll leave the other misconceptions you expressed unaddressed, but I would like to make one comment about your citation of Zippy. I don't know what economic study Zippy has done, nor what you have done. I will however say that prescinding from that, it would be foolish to dismiss the concerns of economists who might disagree with a particular plan or class of plans. Some economists think a better approach would be to lend money rather than purchasing assets. And there is the issue of moral hazard -- an issue which may indeed mean that a bail out is advantageous in the short term but is actually an excerbation of the problem in the long term. This issue of moral hazard is not something that can be said to be something that can be dealt with later after we "put out the fire". Why? It is because the putting out of the fire in this manner of bailing out companies or individuals who took risks is precisely what creates moral hazard in the first place.
There are legitimate economic disagreements and philosophical disagreements. But painting economists opposed to the bail out as people who don't have legitimate issues regarding the short, mid, and long term welfare of the economy and people of the United States is, IMO, at best nescience at work and at worst being unfair in the consideration of an opponent's position, something Aquinas btw, rarely engaged in.

TMC,
Yes, but don't you see that the meaning of that narrative is very difficult to fully understand in the Thomistic sense? It requires a level of intellectual work than makes it obscure to most people, especially the college-educated.
I do admire CT's persistence, I really do. But the notion that the average joe can somehow comprehend the presumably obvious fiction that not all human beings qualify as proper "persons" but cannot be expected to appreciate the apparently subtle fact that unborn human are persons is, to put it charitably, really quite amusing.

Oop. I forgot to post the infancy narrative.
Luk 1:36 And behold, your kinswoman Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren.
Luk 1:37 For with God nothing will be impossible."
Luk 1:38 And Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her.
Luk 1:39 In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah,
Luk 1:40 and she entered the house of Zechari'ah and greeted Elizabeth.
Luk 1:41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit
Luk 1:42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
Luk 1:43 And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Perhaps part of the problem for Mark Shea is that the American system of voting places people in these situations. Here is an interesting article about that.
I know this doesn't have anything to do with the topic of this post, directly, but I do have some questions on a related issue for anyone who likes to think about these things. In the following passage from the infant narrative: a) did Mary set out for Elizabeth, immediately after the Annunciation, b) does Elizabeth call Mary, "the mother of my Lord," therefore (if yes to a) only a day or so after conception, c) if she is able to recognize Mary as mother a day after conception, then what does this say about the status of the conception? Can one becalled a mother without a baby?
Elizabeth did not say, "But who is it that she who will be the mother of my Lord," but rather, "the mother of my Lord."
Can any conclusions be drawn? If so, can any bible-believing Christian vote for abortion at any point?
I realize that this is an old apologetical argument, but it is worth revisiting on this Feast of the Archangels, since Gabriel talks about conception, but Elizabeth about motherhood.
The Chicken

CT says:
"Here's some of Aquinas on natural law:
'But some propositions are self-evident only to the wise, who understand the meaning of the terms of such propositions: thus to one who understands that an angel is not a body, it is self-evident that an angel is not circumscriptively in a place: but this is not evident to the unlearned, for they cannot grasp it.'
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2094.htm
I think the proposition that a human person always underlies a human life may be argued to be one such proposition that if self-evident is so "only to the wise.'"
Interesting proposition. Then let me ask you this: How many 5 year-old children would think that the baby in Mommy's tummy is not a human life and therefore ok to kill? The honest answer, of course, is few if any, so the rich irony is that it is the pro-choice position that is grounded in sophisticated (and that truly is the perfect word) intellectualization, not the pro life position. The idea that in this case natural law is not yet sufficiently accessable to contemporary American adults is absurd. The truth is that support for abortion is grounded in selfish rationalization -- absolutely nothing more.

Chicken and CT -
I have no problem at all with you or anyone else using technical language in discourse with one another or for the benefit of those familiar with it. I really don't! Especially if you define your terms and thereby educate the rest of us poor schmoes.
But a simple question (the only kind I am capable of asking) needs to be answered as simply and clearly as possible.
I am very aware that simple questions often require answers that are not simple at all, but the general thrust of an argument ought to be expressible in the common speech.
I see also that CT's post of Sep 27, 2008 5:40:25 PM was directed to TMC rather than to me, though it was a discussion of ideas I introduced. So, seeing as it was not a direct response to me, I APOLOGIZE for treating it as if it were.
For the record, though, I had no trouble understanding TMC's posts regarding axiomatic and derived truths, meta-statements, etc...

Dear Tim J.
I am sorry for bringing Godel into the discussion. I was trying to flesh out some points you made earlier and it seemed the best way. I usually post links so people can do background reading, but typepad sometimes goes crazy, so I have tried to avoid that.
I agree that posts should be accessible. I will have to work on that.
The Chicken

>> The "other issues", of course, being relavant only to those who are alive.

Interestingly, Zippy Catholic has a post that I think relates to this in some ways, though it deals mainly with economics.
http://zippycatholic.blogspot.com/2008/09/there-is-no-economic-theory-of.html

I don't know what happened to make part of my last post disappear.
I short, technical jargon is a very useful thing within the various disciplines, but if it can't be translated into simpler language with any clarity I begin to doubt the reliability of its philosophical underpinnings.

"...but that now you believe I am dishonest."
I don't believe I said that. Your posts *have* seemed to me at times like simply an exercise in contrarianism, though. Like I said, there is an infinity of *possible* arguments one might make. Life is too short to deal with them all.
It isn't references to Godel specifically that I have any problem with. I was only asking you to keep in mind that I have no idea what you (or TMC) are talking about when you venture into such technical territory. Whatever you and TMC want to bounce back and forth is fine, but
"I took you to be saying dialogue with me was a waste of time. I am not sure you have changed that opinion..."
I'm not sure I have, either.
It's only that when pressed you seem to fall habitually into very long, convoluted and jargon-filled responses that seem more like elaborate non-answers than real attempts at clarification.
That, I'm pretty sure, is where my previous accusations of "blowing smoke" came from. It seems almost calculated to obscure rather than clarify. I'm not certain, in other words, that it is clarity you are after.
It may be that you and I are fundamentally working at cross purposes and no dialogue is possible.
"One who goes to work on a different strand destroys the whole fabric."
- Confucious

Tim,
It was TMC who brought Godel into the discussion. He was using Godel's results which he described as "well known" He just didn't mention the name Godel. So maybe you should ask yourself why there is part of you that wonders about my intent but not part of you that wonders about TMC's intent ... given that it was TMC who introduced Godel here.
I've noticed a change in the tenor of your posts, Tim, and I regret a recent comment I made as it relates to you. I don't know whether you are just being polite or what is going on but at one point you did tell me that initially you gave me the benefit of the doubt and assumed I was just obtuse but that now you believe I am dishonest. You don't have to tell me whether that is still a belief of yours but from my perspective engaging in dialogue with someone who is not ready to give the benefit of the doubt as to honesty or good faith is not a fruitful enterprise.
I actually had written up a comment previously that explained very politely what I did in fact believe and not believe, as well as engaging you substantively, but when I ran across your comments towards the end of your comment to which I was replying I took you to be saying dialogue with me was a waste of time. I am not sure you have changed that opinion, so I am not sure it is wise for me to rewrite what I had written in response to your gracious request above. pax

Oh, for the record, I agree that we ought not float unsubstantiated, suggestive comments about the personal habits of those participating in the discussions... or anyone else. Not good form.
If I have been short tempered with CT at times, I believe it was only to do with actual positions he has taken (or seemed to take, or seemed to defend) in the combox.

"Tim, since you expressed above that you do not wish to engage in dialogue with me, I will respect your wish and not reply to your post except to say that you do not correctly understand my views and that almost nothing you ascribe to me above is true."
Okay. It's not so much that I don't wish to engage in dialogue... I do. But in order for dialogue to exist, there must be some agreed upon axioms and it helps a great deal if the interlocutors speak the same language. Could you please explain to me in plain English which bits of my statement do not apply to you? Please keep in mind, I have no idea who Godel is (or was), and your post of Sep 27, 2008 5:40:25 PM is nearly incomprehensible to me, and - I would venture to guess - to the vast majority of people. There is part of me that wonders if that is not your intent.
Not that I *couldn't* understand it if I had been educated in that milieu or if I were of a mind to do so now... but I'm not. I'm an artist and I don't have time to launch a second career at this stage.
I expect, though, that your statement "I don't see a reason to suppose that ordinary mathematical English and ordinary mathematical reasoning has to be reducible to formalized systems of these natures" pretty well sums up the chasm of thought between us.
You seem to be saying "There is no proof that mathematics (or its linguistic equivalent) can't explain everything, even if we can't articulate how that works in every case right now".
This seems to me to be a leap of faith.
Of course, I could have you pegged completely wrong, but my poor brain is craving short, crisp sentences. Have mercy.

CT,
Yes, I have explicitly stated that you desire license not freedom. Why prostitution and pornography are important to you, again only you know.
You defend them and wax poetically about the freedom to be immoral. It is not a huge leap to believe that you practice what you preach.
It seems obvious, except to you of course, that your problems with the Church are moral not theological.
I have side-tracked the discussion enough. CT you may have the final thousand words about your obsessions. To everyone else I apologize for high-jacking the thread.
And now back to our regularly scheduled post...
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

The "other issues", of course, being relavant only to those who are alive.

bill,
I would also like inform you that Inocencio has in other comments explicitly stated that it is for reasons of a desire to continue to engage in particular sins which the church teaches is wrong that I reject the church and that this is what he meant by rejecting the church for moral reasons not theological ones. So there was no ambiguity regarding what he meant in that respect since he has explicitly stated what he meant there and elsewhere in that refrain repeated some 10-15 times.
I think I have indeed been irrational in failing to appreciate that discussions with persons who intend to talk "personalities" not "issues" would be a waste of time.

Of course quoting Faithful Citizenship #28 which is the first temptation in public life of distorting the Church's defense of human life and dignity should also lead one to read FC #29 which describes the second temptation (FC #28):
"... The second is the misuse of these necessary moral distinctions as a way of dismissing or ignoring other serious threats to human life and dignity. Racism and other unjust discrimination, the use of the death penalty, resorting to unjust war,the use of torture, war crimes, the failure to respond to those who are suffering from hunger or a lack of health care, or an unjust immigration olicy are all serious moral issues that challenge our consciences and require us to act. These are not optional concerns which can be dismissed. Catholics are urged to seriously consider Church teaching on these issues. Although choices about how best to respond to these and other compelling threats to human life and dignity are matters for principled debate and decision, this does not make them optional concerns or permit Catholics to dismiss or ignore Church teaching on these important issues.
So one cannot make a prudential judgement alone on abortion and euthanasia - other issues must be examined as well.

Tim, since you expressed above that you do not wish to engage in dialogue with me, I will respect your wish and not reply to your post except to say that you do not correctly understand my views and that almost nothing you ascribe to me above is true.

And from that he leaped to the conclusion that Inocencio was accusing him of being a customer of prostitutes? Irrational.

This is what you wrote Inocencio with the bold present in your original text:
Since the Church won't change its teaching on prostitution and pornography, two subjects apparently very important to CT, he feels the need to try to undermine all it teachings.
As we know most objections to the Church are because of moral problems not theological.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

Maybe it's time the url was changed to SDG.org :D

CT,
(I am glad that he has long dropped the claim that I am a customer of prostitutes)

I have no idea if you are a customer of prostitutes. And to be clear I said that only you know why you feel it is so important to defend prostitution, pornography and abortion.
But if you are going to say things like "the freedom to be immoral is a beautiful freedom", I can only shake my head and wonder...
You are and remain in my prayers. Lord, Have mercy on both our souls.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

@TMC
There are no technical difficulties that Godel's results poses such that a moral realism of appropriate universality would require an appeal to God. The best that you could do is say that certain classes of moral theories formalized in certain ways cannot be consistent. "Complete" in this context means that the theory for any sentence expressible in the language of the theory proves either the sentence itself or its negation. So let me make some observations from that starting point:
(1) This has not much to do with whether a theory is able to of every activity say whether it is morally right or not morally right. Here's one example of a theory that would not be "complete" but still say of every moral activity whether it is right or not:
Construct a theory that incorporates all of PA (Peano Arithmetic)
Add to that the axiom: "Every activity is morally right."
Then it is trivial to show that such a theory for every object over which "every activity" would quantify over would be able to prove whether or not it is morally right. So the use of "complete" in Godel's results and the importation of the same word when speaking here in its application to moral theories can be misleading. The "completeness" in Godel's results (in his incompleteness theorems that is, his completeness theorem deals with a different kind of completeness), is referring to one involving every sentence expressible in the theory, not to whether every object of a certain class can be proven in the theory to be morally right or not as dictated by the theory.
The above theory would of course be consistent assuming the theory that incorporates just PA is consistent. So there's no technical problem here beyond that which already existed before the introduction of an insertion of morality into the discussion.
Now the above theory (assuming it is consistent) is not complete but the "incompleteness" is all in the arithmetic side -- in some sentences that speak of or quantify over some natural numbers (or the representations of them in the theory) not being provable in the theory. There's no sentence of the form "x is an activity and x is morally right" where neither it nor its negation is not provable in the theory.
Now this assumes that all we want a moral theory to do is make statements about activities. BTW, if all we want is a moral theory and not some combination of this moral theory and PA, then we can just throw out the PA part of the theory and language and the resultant theory and language, if formulated appropriately can actually be consistent and complete but it wouldn't meet Godel's condition of being a theory powerful enough for the practical application of arithmetic.
You may object that this moral theory is implausible -- and I agree it is implausible ... but I could come up with actual plausible ones but I'm not sure what kind of moral theory you want here. One that is exhaustively able to evaluate based on the relevant facts whether an act is morally right?
Well I am not sure what your appeal to God does for you then. It would mean that God is in possession of such a theory but still no mortal would be and so what would be the use of that? If you mean that the use is in that a person in possession of such a theory is communicating morsels of it to us, then I see what you are saying but the atheist could say simply that an exhaustive theory exists in the abstract but no one knows it all but we do come to now these morsels of it ... much like how all the truths of number theory are out there in the abstract and no one knows them all (their number must be a cardinality greater than the natural numbers for obvious reasons), but we nevertheless come to know morsels of it.
So if the atheist is willing to accept that abstract things can exist without anyone being aware of them, I don't see any problem (unless you mean that the believer is justified more in his moral beliefs since he can rely on God's knowledge communicated through revelation whereas the atheist can only rely on what mortals come up with on their own)
Sorry if I have made any typos or mistakes above.

@RO, TMC was replying to Tim J there.

Rotten Orange has commented that people, here, never used to write dissertations in the combox...

Dear TMC
I hope you remember that I wrote such a thing, as far as I remember, while defending you when you threatened to leave this blog for good.
As matter of fact, I loved the comment you wrote previously (You are right, in the main. Let's distinguish between derived truths and axiomatic truths.), because, if I'm not mistaken, I recognized in it the unintelligible pedantry constant in CT's comments.
TMC rocks!

Dear CT,
You wrote:
(2) As you seem to allude to, if every theory you assent to is proved consistent by some other theory you assent to, then obviously equivalently there is no theory to which you assent that is not proved consistent in some theory or other. Whether that is epistemologically significant may depend on the informal justification one has for accepting the relevant theories.
Actually, what I meant is better summarized by this Wikipedia quote:
There are some who hold that a statement that is unprovable within a deductive system may be quite provable in a metalanguage. And what cannot be proven in that metalanguage can likely be proven in a meta-metalanguage, recursively, ad infinitum, in principle. By invoking such a system of typed metalanguages, along with an axiom of Reducibility — which by an inductive assumption applies to the entire stack of languages — one may, for all practical purposes, overcome the obstacle of incompleteness.
I think you used the term," informal justification," in your statement to be equivalent to, "an inductive assumption," in the wikipedia statement, no?
An interesting question, however, is, "who is making the inductive assumption?" A single observer may make an inductive assumption for an infinity of objects of a single level, but can a single observer make an inductive assumption for an infinite number objects within an infinity of meta-levels? Can he do it in a finite time?
You see where I am going, of course? There is one agent who can certainly do this - God. Thus, God can certainly make a consistent and complete moral system. Whether or not man can, on his own, I think is an open question (but one I am inclined to answer in the negative). The reason I say this is that, although there are some statements that can be proven from other consistent systems outside of it, one is still left, in the moral arena, of proving those from other systems. Thus, is is possible to close this? I do not think so because the system do defined must apply to all men, but this implies n number of different inductors or n number of people using different systems and this may still lead to moral chaos because of possibly more than one moral system.
The Chicken

That should read:
However, the law of non-contradiction is a higher order axiom than A or ~A, so, again, one is proving a lower level axiomatic contradiction by using a higher level axiom.
The Chicken

TMC wrote:
You are right, in the main. Let's distinguish between derived truths and axiomatic truths. As is well known, one cannot prove the validity of axiomatic truths from within the system. One can prove the validity by recourse to meta-statements related to the axiom, but the meta-statements, themselves, become open to the same argument that they cannot be proven within their own level, but must rely on meta-meta-statements to prove them.
The only time that this recursion breaks down is if there is an omega-level reached - a level beyond which there is nothing
There are a few observations I would like to make.
(1) The results of Godel apply to theories that meet certain conditions. For example one could construct some theories in some infinitary languages that would prevent a Godel numbering scheme to work. The results also don't apply to theories that are not powerful enough in certain respects related to practical applications in mathematics (i.e. arithmetic).
(2) As you seem to allude to, if every theory you assent to is proved consistent by some other theory you assent to, then obviously equivalently there is no theory to which you assent that is not proved consistent in some theory or other. Whether that is epistemologically significant may depend on the informal justification one has for accepting the relevant theories.
(3) The results of Godel are dealing with notions of provability where provability is defined in terms of the mechanisms of a language on a given theory. He is dealing with in essence as you note, "derivability." Whether A is derivable from B is distinct from whether A is logically entailed by B. Completeness results are true only of certain logics. So whether P is provable in a theory T can be a distinct question from whether the truth of P can be discovered as part of T "closed" under logical entailment as opposed to logical derivability. So P may not be part of T closed under logical derivability but still be part of T "closed" under logical entailment. This means, ISTM, that the truth of P, given T, can still be "discovered" -- it will just be discovered outside the mechanistic rules of T and its corresponding language.
I don't see a reason to suppose that ordinary mathematical English and ordinary mathematical reasoning has to be reducible to formalized systems of these natures. That no formal system (given certain conditions) can be constructed that is able to prove the truth of every arithmetic truth does not entail that there is some arithmetic truth that mathematicians cannot construct some formal system to prove the truth of, nor does it entail that there is some arithmetic truth that mathematicians cannot prove using ordinary mathematical English and reasoning without the use of a formal system. There be something in the mathematical structure of language, theory and semantics -- the kinds under consideration -- that do not fully capture the scope of ordinary English or ordinary mathematical reasoning. The effort to formalize, in various ways, mathematics is a "project". In relation to ethics, I think my sentiments here all the more true or at least, relevant.

Dear Sleeping Beastly,
You wrote:
If I can prove, logically, a patently untrue conclusion starting from a certain axiom, then I have shown that axiom to be unreasonable.
It is certainly possible to do this starting from derived axioms. This is simply using the contrapositive to prove something. This is done all of the time in mathematics - assume something to be true and show that it leads to a contradiction.
The problem comes when one uses axioms at the same level. It is true that if one assumes an axiom A and its negative, ~A to hold at the same time, i.e, violate the law of non-contradiction, one can prove anything. That's a standard proof in any beginning logic class. However, the law of non-contradiction is a higher order axiom than A or ~A, so, again, some is proving a lower level axiomatic contradiction by using a higher level axiom.
In one got rid of the law of non-contradiction, by assuming another comparative axiom held, as is done in para-consistent logics, then, in fact, there does not have to be something wrong in the logic.
So, I agree that one can make consistency arguments up to the level of the ultimate axioms one assumes in the logic one holds, but change the ultimate axioms and one changes the outcome.
That having been said, I happen to agree with Chesterton, that there are certain patterns of thinking that God himself seems to hold and starting from his moral axioms (which are consistent and non-contradictory), one can test other lower level propositions.
In the famous detective story, The Blue Cross, he wrote:
The first he heard was the tail of one of Father Brown's sentences,
which ended: "... what they really meant in the Middle Ages by the
heavens being incorruptible."
The taller priest nodded his bowed head and said:
"Ah, yes, these modern infidels appeal to their reason; but who can
look at those millions of worlds and not feel that there may well be
wonderful universes above us where reason is utterly unreasonable?"
"No," said the other priest; "reason is always reasonable, even in the
last limbo, in the lost borderland of things. I know that people charge
the Church with lowering reason, but it is just the other way. Alone
on earth, the Church makes reason really supreme. Alone on earth, the
Church affirms that God himself is bound by reason."
The other priest raised his austere face to the spangled sky and said:
"Yet who knows if in that infinite universe--?"
"Only infinite physically," said the little priest, turning sharply
in his seat, "not infinite in the sense of escaping from the laws of
truth."
Valentin behind his tree was tearing his fingernails with silent fury.
He seemed almost to hear the sniggers of the English detectives whom
he had brought so far on a fantastic guess only to listen to the
metaphysical gossip of two mild old parsons. In his impatience he lost
the equally elaborate answer of the tall cleric, and when he listened
again it was again Father Brown who was speaking:
"Reason and justice grip the remotest and the loneliest star. Look
at those stars. Don't they look as if they were single diamonds and
sapphires? Well, you can imagine any mad botany or geology you please.
Think of forests of adamant with leaves of brilliants. Think the moon
is a blue moon, a single elephantine sapphire. But don't fancy that all
that frantic astronomy would make the smallest difference to the reason
and justice of conduct. On plains of opal, under cliffs cut out of
pearl, you would still find a notice-board, 'Thou shalt not steal.'"
The Chicken

Chicken,
You wrote:
In other words, once one decides that something is a moral axiom, one may use it to derive other things, but one cannot argue to a moral axiom per se, because the supposed moral axiom would be a conclusion of an argument based on other moral axioms, and hence would not be an axiom, itself, but a derived result. One cannot argue from one axiom to another axiom.
While it's true (by definition) that an axiom cannot be proven, that doesn't mean that axioms cannot be addressed and shown to be reasonable or unreasonable. If I can prove, logically, a patently untrue conclusion starting from a certain axiom, then I have shown that axiom to be unreasonable.
I also think that a lot of problems that seem to stem from disagreements over axioms can be addressed semantically, by getting people to agree on definitions of terms.

Rotten Orange has commented that people, here, never used to write dissertations in the combox, so let me be short. As Tim J. pointed out, a man may argue through a moral axiom, but he may not argue to a moral axiom.
In other words, once one decides that something is a moral axiom, one may use it to derive other things, but one cannot argue to a moral axiom per se, because the supposed moral axiom would be a conclusion of an argument based on other moral axioms, and hence would not be an axiom, itself, but a derived result. One cannot argue from one axiom to another axiom.
If a man were to argue to the conclusion that he should not kill, then one may, rightfully, ask on what basis he came to that conclusion. The conclusion, itself would not be a moral axiom. Whatever caused him to reach that conclusion, probably would be (or they would be higher-level derived conclusions).
It is entirely possible that a derived result might land on top of a axiom derived by an entirely different means. Thus, God may hold that a man may not kill as an axiom. If a man reasons to this, it will be based on other reasons. The result may be true, but the reasoning must be entirely different or even wrong, since to employ the reasons of God, one must be God.
Opps, sounding dissertation-like :)
The Chicken

OK CT--I found your comment, posted on Sep 25, 2008 at 9:56:19 PM.
It is utterly unresponsive. FOCA will strike down all pro-life laws and force states to facilitate abortion. Everyone but you recognizes this fact. Those laws prevent tens of thousands of abortions yearly. It is the first priority of an Obama administration. It is incompatible with contending that Obama wants to reduce abortion.
You have done nothing to substantively respond to this, just as you have done nothing to substantively respond to the idea that by wanting a "health" of the mother exception Obama is somehow not an abortion extremist. Both FOCA and "health" mean unlimited abortion. Your only comment on them was to say irrelevant things about their language.
It is utterly inconsequential that you think the language of FOCA is "consistent" with what you think Obama's moderate attitude towards abortion is, and it is likewise immaterial that you impose a convoluted, self-originated interpration of familial and age "health" from Doe v. Bolton that has no basis in other judicial authorty.
Fact: FOCA will ban all pro-life laws and mandate state facilitation of abortion, which will increase abortions by a lot, and Obama insists on passing it. You cannot still insist that he may reduce abortion.
Fact: Obama's opinion is so extreme that even on partial birth abortion he insists on a "health" exception, which judges who share his mindset do not limit to physical health as normal people understand it, but which includes, and has always included since Roe and Doe, "I have too many children" or "I can't handle a baby if I'm unmarried," or "I'm too young to have a baby," that is, familial, emotional, and the woman's age.

Dear Tim J.,
You are right, in the main. Let's distinguish between derived truths and axiomatic truths. As is well known, one cannot prove the validity of axiomatic truths from within the system. One can prove the validity by recourse to meta-statements related to the axiom, but the meta-statements, themselves, become open to the same argument that they cannot be proven within their own level, but must rely on meta-meta-statements to prove them.
The only time that this recursion breaks down is if there is an omega-level reached - a level beyond which there is nothing.
If there is no God, then there are many axiomatic moral systems that are consistent within themselves, perhaps, but the ability to prove the truth of every statement within each system may be impossible from within the system. What makes one such moral system superior to another becomes purely a personal choice. This is the singular personalist axiomatic systematization of morals (SPASM).
If there is a God, by his very nature, he must be an omega point. If he gives moral axioms, then they must be non-recursive and unappealable. We may call this a singular universal axiomatic system of morals (SUASM).
In either system, there are derivative moral conclusions that may be based on the axioms, but only in the case of SUASM can one claim that the system of axioms and their derivatives are universal and true.
A man may reason to the conclusion that one must not kill another or a man may reason to the conclusion that one must kill all. In either case, however, even if consistency could be proven, The axiom would depend solely on the reasoning of a single man. Unless all men reason the same (and in axiomatics, there is no reason to assume this), there is no reason for anyone else to arrive at the same conclusion, because his own axiom system might be different.
In order for morality to apply to all, it must be given by someone outside of the system. God is the universal moral axiom giver. Man is the one who derives from those axioms and not his own if moral chaos is not to ensue.
The chicken

CT,
Your sly insinuation that I can and ought to be kinder when disagreeing with you is duly noted, and taken for the friendly advice that it is.

"My point here is not to be humorous or to disparage Tim J or Esau..."
Of course not...
"My point rather is to suggest how partisanship can sometimes blind us to the truth"
Yes, I don't think that's news.
"and also to the good which we must serve, which good is sometimes not primarily the good of some grand cause"
I don't view the Catholic faith or the pursuit of truth as "partisan" at all. There is nothing outside the scope of the faith.
If I work to *truly* serve anyone at all, it is impossible that this act can be in conflict with any teaching of the Church.
So, for instance, when I affirm (with the Church) that homosexual marriage is a contradiction in terms, this does not mean that I am failing to act as a true servant to homosexual persons.
You seem to be of the opinion, CT, that all truths may be - or must be - established through reasoned argument. I do not. There are truths that simply are, that are in themselves the foundation and beginning of reason. One can hardly use reason to prove the reliability of reason, or by the accumulation of external data come to any solid conclusion regarding the fundamental reliability of the senses.
At times - perhaps most of the time - you seem more interested in arguments than in truth. "Thou shalt not murder" is not something that arises from or is built on a system of reasoned arguments. It is not something tentatively held until validated by reason. It is reason. To insist that belief in such moral realities be suspended until these realities can be justified in rigorous philosophical language is to miss the whole nature of truth.
If a man reasoned and worked out in a very orderly way that murder was, in fact, not a problem, my first and fundamental conclusion would be either that he was a madman who took up logical argument as a hobby or an obsession, or that he began sanely enough and his logic DROVE him mad. In either case, his conclusions are mad and his logic twisted. That is the salient fact... the truth. I'll worry about deconstructing his arguments *later*, if that is a project even worth the time one might be required to give it. There is an infinity of possible wrong arguments, and one can't spend one's whole life swatting them individually. There are more productive things to do.
So, when I see someone bringing what appears to be ten new, wrongheaded arguments (sophisms) to the defense of one previous argument which was being discussed, I pretty quickly decide that there are more productive uses of my time. I'm no mathematician, but I know roughly how exponential growth works.
There are many, many truths that are arrived at through reason, but not all of them are. This may be where we differ.

CT,
I do place a positive, though "incalculable," value on future generations.
I do not claim that no other good can be commensurate with human life. Your spacefaring example is hard to evaluate because although you give a possible and dauntingly low survival rate (1 in 1000) you don't mention the odds of this catastrophic outcome occurring or not occurring.
I would accept the legitimacy of such an expedition if there were a high likelihood or even a virtual certainty that a small number of deaths would occur, just as I accept the legitimacy of recreational rock climbing even though it is certain that a small percentage of rock climbers will die over time. I do not think I could rationalize an expedition, however fascinating, that was likely to kill nearly all of its members.
Christianity places a unique value on the human person. The human person is the only material creature that God desired for its own sake. All of creation is good, and that includes cows, but cows are good in a relative context, whereas the good of the human person is absolute.
Sterilization is also an intrinsic evil, though a lesser one than murder. However, sterilization on a population-wide scale could become more evil than murder on a more limited scale. Universal celibacy also would be an evil, though again less evil than universal sterilization, because celibacy itself is not intrinsically evil, but a serious proposal to enforce universal celibacy could be more evil than a program of limited murder.

I don't think that's something to be proud of. It's not so much a sign of your superior intellect as it is a sign of your inability to communicate effectively.
Your sly insinuation that I claimed it was a sign of my superior intellect is disappointing. Just for the record previously I was in SDG's words "excessively" cautious in not offending or causing people to misunderstand. I would among other things qualify statements that someone had not understood me correctly with the parenthetical remark that it was probably due in part or mostly due to my own fault -- though I don't see why anyone should care whose fault the misunderstanding is. Now that I have cut back on all that, you mischaracterize my remarks which were part of a fruitless argument I was having with another individual who seems intent on devolving discussions into insults against persons (I am glad that he has long dropped the claim that I am a customer of prostitutes).
I am not proud of my lack of clarity in writing, especially when I write off the cuff. Nor am I proud of my lack of ability to make things clear to those unfamiliar with the concepts I am working with. The only pride I expressed here was in the praise that a Catholic philosopher gave to part of my first blog post as a "genuine move forward" in the discussion, a blog post he evidently was able to parse through despite any deficiencies in clarity there. I expressed such pride not to show off any intellectual superiority but to rebut the claim that my blog was launched to bash Catholicism. In another thread I expressed such pride in the context of a followup to TMC who had expressed interest in that post and asked me to inform him of it.
You have a strange way of making yourself "friendly." Your advice was accurate. Your remark however belies your claim that it is friendly and betrays your bad faith -- I say this since you previously asked me to tell you if I ever thought you were acting in bad faith.
BTW, Tim J's response to my response to an individual we later found out was Esau is rather telling. Esau was in my view trumpeting his own intelllectual superiority and engaged in explicit disparagement of my own intellect while making with explicit condescenion sprinkled throughout references to PubMed, medical and other jargon, and a pop quiz on a Latin phrase used in philosophy, and other things I don't recall off hand. I then responded to this charade, to this smoke and mirrors by initially patiently refuting logically and with references when need be certain of his claims. Then at some point I transitioned into making more explicit how certain of his claims were unjustified based on the philosophy that would be needed, etc. Then finally, when his smoke and mirrors charade had reached its height, I thought that wisest thing to do at this point would be to resoundly show how he was in Tim J's words with respect to me "talking out of his arse". Then Tim J proceeded to (first to his credit he didn't give any pretense of being "friendly" in his very valid criticism of my writing skills as more becoming of a graduate student than a professional), say how *I* was engaging in smoke and mirrors and talking out of *my* arse! lol.
My point here is not to be humorous or to disparage Tim J or Esau. My point rather is to suggest how partisanship can sometimes blind us to the truth, and also to the good which we must serve, which good is sometimes not primarily the good of some grand cause, but the seemingly mundane good of serving one single fellow human being, even veiled by internet communication. To me that is a beautiful act and one that is not something that can be said to be trumped by the service of any partisan cause, even the cause of Catholicism against arguments that it is false or even the cause of defending human lives against abortion. To not understand that, IMO, is a sign of not understanding, truly, why a human life is valuable in the first place.
BTW, one of my recent blog posts, with some modification would serve as another argument that lives unjustly lost (or for that matter anything that can be counted or ranked sequentially -- with possibility of ties, but with no theoretical finite upper bound), can not be the ruling calculus here.
The man you seem to be a fan of (yet have not read his latest book I take it), has an interesting role to play in this news bio of Rachel Maddow. I invite you to read the brief article; if you do, I think you will be able to see why I so invited you.

CT,
You address many issues here, and I hope you'll pardon me for responding to them all in a single comment.
I was not claiming that points of view should not be employed when deciding how to educate the public. I was only claiming that the education process itself should not indoctrinate people to a certain point of view.
Unless you're using some novel definition of "indoctrinate" I fail to see how you can reconcile those two sentences.
Biden seems to me to be saying that were we living in a society where 100% or close to it believed in the immorality of abortion as the taking of a human life, that he would support making it illegal but that since our society is pluralistic, with different religions or atheisms with different views on the relevant issues and since the Catholic understanding of natural law is itself an understanding that is the subject of Catholic doctrine, a doctrine that non-Catholics may disagree with and some of some religions by virtue of their religions do disagree with (and even Aquinas says IIRC, that some findings of the natural law require a level of intellectual work that make them obscure to most people; in fact, it is a standard Catholic doctrine that revelation that repeats something true on natural law or natural theology is given for, among other reasons, making clear what may be obscured in the cloud of natural law/theology -- Ludwig Ott states this for example in FoCD)
A friendly suggestion: Keeping your sentences short makes them easier to understand and easier to complete.
BTW, SDG, Scalia does not believe there is a right to life for fetuses under the U.S. Constitution. Scalia claims that asserting such a right would be as legally indefensible an opinion as the opinion in Roe. McCain also seems to likewise agree that there is no right to life for fetuses under the US Constitution.
I think it's a snap to find such a right in the fifth amendment. Either Scalia and McCain are being disingenuous, or they don't regard fetuses as people.
Kmiec's legal credentials dwarf both mine and yours. I think frankly you and I should both defer to him in terms of judging the good faith of his views where whether it is in good faith or not turns on a legal judgment.
No one's questioning his good faith here. Just his conclusion.
I don't understand why you would think mental health is somehow less important than physical health, you being a Catholic who sees the value of bodily things to be inferior to spiritual things or to have parity in value only in dependence on spiritual things.
Better go back to the catechism: specifically paragraph 365. Perhaps you're confusing Catholicism with Gnosticism?
(I, OTOH, don't view bodily things to have no overlap with spiritual things; some bodily things in their very constitution may be spiritual in nature -- likewise some spiritual things in their very constitution may be bodily in nature ... I am not even sure there exists any concrete objects which are not "bodily" i.e. which are not either able to have sensory experience or be, in principle, the object of sensory experience ... but I do believe spiritual things exist: a musical performance for example is a spiritual thing yet its existence is wholly in "bodily" form)
Perhaps there are no 'concrete objects which are not "bodily"' (although I wonder what distinction you're making between "concrete" and "bodily") but surely you admit that there are immaterial realities? Your thoughts, for instance.
Catholic and self-described "thomist" in world view Chris Matthews has made the point that when we force women to make the "right" decision in these cases then we can no longer praise the beautiful choice of say Sarah Palin. Sarah Palin can also no longer say that she is proud of her daughter's choice to keep the baby.
That is one of the worst arguments I have ever heard on any issue. By that logic, we ought to legalize rape as well, since it would allow nonrapists to feel good about themselves, and we could then admire and praise their heroic choices.
For when an action is forced, there is nothing beautiful in the actor for the actor is no more (instead the govt becomes the actor -- so I guess you could say it was a beautiful choice of the govt) and there is also nothing that can be taken pride in by the actor or her parents (I guess also you can now take pride in the totalitarianism of the govt).
Utter nonsense. For one thing, human agency doesn't disappear from the equation the moment the law is involved. Ideally, we can all take pride in our collective efforts to look after the weakest and most defenseless in our society by means of government regulations.
For another, there's no reason to think that lowering the moral bar will increase the number of heroes in our society, or that raising it will decrease them. It's not a stretch to believe that, when the bar is raised, people try harder and perform better, and when the bar is lowered, even the best among us get lazy. Matthews' argument seems to me like an argument for relaxing academic standards so that we can give out more A's.
Um Inocencio, at least two persons here, both Catholics, admitted they didn't understand some of my arguments.
I don't think that's something to be proud of. It's not so much a sign of your superior intellect as it is a sign of your inability to communicate effectively.
I find it very interesting that pro-lifers embrace "Roe" when she converts to their cause and yet (many) of these same pro-lifers are suspicious of Mitt Romney when he converts to their cause.
For one thing, there is no cost involved in embracing "Roe". We're not electing her to public office, so if her conversion turns out to be insincere, no one's life will be lost as a result.
On top of that, "Roe" has been a penitent convert for many, many years, whereas Romney's change of heart is more recent. "Roe" has very little to gain (materially) from her conversion; Romney had a real shot at the Republican nomination. Taking these two facts into account, we are not entirely convinced that his change of heart represents a real principled stand, rather than an actual ideological conversion.
SDG, it involves less murder of life because assuming the continued existence of the U.S. over a sufficient length of time, the number of abortions will eventually accumulate to a total greater than the current population of the U.S. So for example if there are 100,000 abortions every year, and the current population of the U.S. is 300,000,000, then the abortion rate remains constant each year, then after 3,007 years, 700,000 more lives would have been lost to murder than if all 300,000,000 current individuals in the U.S. had been murdered in self-nuking.
In your example, I'd still vote for the anti-self-nuking candidate. The issue isn't one of numbers or of "the good of the country", but of time. If I vote in a pro-self-nuking candidate, BOOM, that's it, hundreds of millions dead all at once. If I vote in a pro-abortion candidate, there's still time to change the course of the country.

Decker2003,
You wrote:
It seems to me that we have to do more than just identify the candidate's position on certain issues, we need to analyze how likely it is that electing that candidate will lead to the desired change.
That's pretty much how I see it. What effects will my vote have, and how can I best use it? It's not simple, and it involves a lot of guesswork. That's why we have so many well-meaning and well-informed people with such a diversity of opinion.

CT,
caused Inocencio to characterize my blog as anti-Catholic

Please refresh my memory, when did I characterize your blog as anti-catholic?
If you are referring to the Formal Defection post I was only repeating what I have always said about you specifically, not your blog post.
I think it is obvious that as long as the Church teaches that some acts are immoral you will feel the obligation to attack and undermine it's teachings.
You desire license not freedom.

I would still hope that you would answer my question, on that thread, about your standing or relationship to the Church as a self-proclaimed "former Catholic"?
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J

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