Some time ago, an apologist in This Rock mused about the secular world’s penchant for tossing out Catholicism and adopting paler images of what had been tossed:
"G. K. Chesterton famously observed that when you stop believing in God, you don’t believe in nothing; you believe in anything. Similarly, in the absence of the Catholic Church, you get (before Christ) things that anticipate it or (after Christ) things that are a cheap imitation of it. For instance, Ebay is the modern world’s unwitting testament to the Catholic theology of relics. People who laugh over ‘primitive’ medievals and their interest in the true cross will lay down big bucks to own a pair of John Lennon’s shoelaces. Likewise, what is Oprah but a sort of video testament of the need of the human soul for a mother?"
GET THE STORY. (Scroll to Item 6.)
Lest you think the apologist was exaggerating, take a look at this: In an article titled "The Divine Miss Winfrey?" La Oprah is hailed as "a spiritual leader for the new millennium, a moral voice of authority for the nation."
"She’s no longer just a successful talk-show host worth $1.4 billion, according to Forbes’ most recent estimate. Over the past year, Winfrey, 52, has emerged as a spiritual leader for the new millennium, a moral voice of authority for the nation.
"With her television pulpit and the sheer power of her persona, she has encouraged and steered audiences (mostly women) in all matters, from genocide in Rwanda to suburban spouse swapping to finding the absolute best T-shirt and oatmeal cookie.
"’She’s a really hip and materialistic Mother Teresa,’ says Kathryn Lofton, a professor at Reed College in Portland, Ore., who has written two papers analyzing the religious aspects of Winfrey. ‘Oprah has emerged as a symbolic figurehead of spirituality.’"
Catholics have the Blessed Virgin Mother; hip materialists have Mother Oprah. The comparison by Professor Lofton between Mother Teresa and Mother Oprah was especially interesting. Mother Teresa once said "I do not pray for success. I ask for faithfulness." For what do the disciples of Mother Oprah pray?
Make’s me think of that Casting Crowns song “What if His People Prayed”, lyrics say:
What if the family turned to Jesus,
Stopped asking Oprah what to do?
I see one flaw in your reaction, Michelle. Oprah may be perceived as “hip,” but I don’t think the bulk of her fans are. They’re mainly lonely, depressed, overweight 40-50 year old secularist women. And they truly look to her for inspiration. It’s sad, really.
Where did GK Chesterton say that line in The Rock article? I defy anyone to find it. It’s an internet legend that he said it.
Two points:
1. The fact that secularists wish to pay outrageous prices for items owned by celebrites neither equates to nor justifies the obsession the Church had in past times with relics.
2. The idea that Oprah serves as “the video testament for the need of the human soul for a mother does not justify the overemphasis many Catholics place on Marian devotion — an emphasis that, whether we want to admit it or not, overshadows Christ’s role as our high priest in heaven.
Mrs.,
As I remember it, the quote from Chesterton is actually a conflation from a Fr. Brown short story – something about a dog in the title. (Sorry, but it’s been a while since I read it.)
I might be mistaken, but I’m sure that someone attending this forum can set me (us) straight. Where’s Dale Ahlquist when you need him?!
Also, I particularly like the addition made by the author of the This Rock article:
“Similarly, in the absence of the Catholic Church, you get (before Christ) things that anticipate it or (after Christ) things that are a cheap imitation of it.”
That’s great. Michelle, who wrote that article?
mrs: the quote from Chesterton you defy anyone to find is either from “Orthodoxy” or “The Everlasting Man”. I’ll post exactly where one may find it after I get home(assuming, of course, no one beats me to it, which I expect will happen).
“Where did GK Chesterton say that line in The Rock article? I defy anyone to find it. It’s an internet legend that he said it.”
Click here for the American Chesterton Society’s analysis of the issue.
“That’s great. Michelle, who wrote that article?”
Cajun Nick: Without digging out a print edition copy of the article, I couldn’t say for certain, but I believe it was Mark Shea.
Always nice of Joe to drop by and remind us all not to worship Mary.
Saint Maximilian Kolbe, pray for us, that the Immaculate might reign in our hearts and that we would let her bring us ever closer to her Son.
Michelle:
Yup, it was me.
to finding the absolute best T-shirt and oatmeal cookie.
When did they stop using raisins?
“When did they stop using raisins?”
Absolutely! An oatmeal cookie without raisins is like a bicycle without a banana seat and apehanger handlebars… what’s the point?
And Joe D’H, if that is what you believe about devotion to Mary, then your understanding of it is inadequate.
Yes, there may be some who go about Marian devotion in the wrong way, or who are superstitious about it, but the Church (and the world) would both be far better off if there were MORE devotion to the Blessed Mother, not less.
Authentic devotion to Mary could not POSSIBLY overshadow Jesus’ role as our high priest, as Mary always points us to her Son, saying “Do whatever He tells you.”.
Oh if only God had established a Magisterium with His authority to guide us through these issues so Jospeh wouldn’t have to bear the burden of trying to be his own pope…
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
Always nice of Joe to drop by and remind us all not to worship Mary.
I have never said that “Catholics worship Mary. I know that Catholics do not consider Mary as the Fourth Person of the Blessed Quadrinnity, as it were. However, much popular piety and conventional wisdom concerning Marian devotion takes on a kind of air of spiritual codependence, such as “Jesus would never refuse a request from His mother.” If that’s true, then who’s really in charge?
And Joe D’H, if that is what you believe about devotion to Mary, then your understanding of it is inadequate.
I beg to differ, obviously, Tim J. I’m talking about popular expressions of that devotion, not the theological definitions and technicalities that many Catholics neither know nor care about. The popular expressions seem to define Marian devotion more than the theological definitions do; just look at Medjugorie.
Authentic devotion to Mary could not POSSIBLY overshadow Jesus’ role as our high priest, as Mary always points us to her Son, saying “Do whatever He tells you.”.
Technically speaking, you are correct. However — and again, this concerns the popular piety and conventional wisdom surronding such devotions — when is Christ’s role as high priest ever emphacized? I come away with the feeling that, to the practitioners of such devotions, Christ is so unapproachable that Mary offers the best way to approach Him. I also get the feeling that, for some Catholics trying to go to Christ through Mary, that they never leave Mary.
The Church needs to approach this issue more honestly than it has, and not to fall into a defensive mode.
‘”Jesus would never refuse a request from his mother”‘. “If that’s true, then who really is in charge”.
Why God is of course; but if you believe that Jesus is God, then it is inconceivable that he would violate one of his own Commandments:
“honour thy Father and thy Mother”
I REALLY don’t want to attack people’s devotion to Mary and am not in the habit of agreeing with J.D’H., but I think he is on to something, though probably going too far.
It seems clear to me that any religious devotion, especially if not directed directly at God, can become disordered. Perhaps as a result of unjustified Protestant attacks on any Marian devotion, some Catholics have adopted a “Mary could never do anything but lead you to her Son” attitude. This may be true, but that does not mean that Marian devotion could not lead you away from Christ. For most Catholics, including myself, Mary is only prayed to for mediation (perhaps in the form of asking for help but with the understanding that the help would be prayer to God from her), and she also leads the person to God through the beauty of her life and person. Any authentic human love will lead to God. The love can however become obsessed with itself or with the thing loved and become idolatry. The way love of nature should lead to God but frequently becomes idolatry is a good analogy, though I suspect it is far more common than any Marian idolatry.
I know that some Mayans today worship Mary and sacrifice to her. She has basically become a goddess of groundwater and some other things for them, in their sort of combination of Catholicism and ancient Mayan paganism. This is an extreme example, but is proof that Mary does not by some imagined interference actually make it impossible to worship (adore) her or more simply to distract yourself from your relationship to God with misplaced attention to her.
Probably in today’s Church there is too little devotion to Mary not too much. However I think the Church and Catholic apologists should be honest and realistic about this matter.
That the attention given relics can and historically has at times become excessive is as plain as a pikestaff (or a bronze serpent) to me, so hopefully that will meet with no objection.
Again, authentic devotion to Mary is a wonderful thing, but it is not impossible to worship Mary, or (more likely to actually happen) to sustitute relationship with her (or any other person) for relationship with God, and we should not pretend otherwise.
J.R., that’s the most eloquent and honest statement of the problem that I’ve ever seen. You’re right in saying that too many Catholics (especially professional apologists) are overreacting to the cliched ignorance of fundamentalist Protestants without seriously examining the issue for themselves.
I suggest that everybody study the Epistle to the Hebrews, not to argue against Marian devotion but to understand the beauty of Christ’s role as a high priest who is familiar with our travail and pain because He experienced it directly. Also, study Christ’s experience at Gethsemane. As someone who has struggled with intense anxiety, I find His experience to be most reassuring.
He is not distant from us. In fact, He empathizes with us far more than we can ever imagine. I believe that if we concentrate on that aspect of His priesthood, we shall increase our confidence in Him (and in His Father) in ways we hardly thought possible.
J D’H
I find your comments rather patronizing. As Catholics we are fully aware of Christ’s role as our High priest who has been tempted in every way
that we are.
Also we don’t need to be reminded to meditate on Christ’s Passion, including his Agony in Gethsemane, as this has always been a staple of Catholic devotion.
I can’t speak for anybody else, but personally I can assure you that my devotion to Mary in no way compromises my awareness of the unique role of Christ.
MaryC, if your devotion to Mary does not compromise your awareness of Christ’s unique role, that’s great. I know Catholics who have gone to Medjugorie and returned with a greater appreciation of Christ in their lives. But can every Catholic with an intense devotion to Mary say that? It’s a legitimate question, patronizing or otherwise.
Warning against “the cult of Mary” is like warning against “the Club of the Get Out of Hell Free Card” – you know, the Christians who act like declaring Christ as their Saviour means that they carry on with their sinful ways at full force because Jesus is a close personal friend who will let them sneak into Heaven anyway.
Anyway, I see that the Mother Mary/Mother Oprah comparison as a good one. Mary’s life revolved around God – accepting His will, trusting Him even when she didn’t always understand, encouraging others to look towards her Son for redemption and “do whatever he asks”… Oprah’s fans, on the other hand, try out her latest interests (books, films, Walmart home decor, etc.) and look towards the Angel Network (her charity) for a feeling of contributing to other people’s temporaral redemption. I don’t think it’s a ploy on Oprah’s part, myself. I think she’s trying to help people, but there are a lot of empty people out there who are filling the void with meaningless junk.
That said, I DO think the writer for USA Today was just doing what many writers do: talking to an “Oprah expert” and spinning the story according to said expert’s view of Oprah as “a symbolic figurehead” (talk about a redundancy in two words!). Maybe Professor Lofton is hoping to sell a few of her books on Oprah by creating a “Oprah is a modern religious leader” conversation piece.
“I also get the feeling that, for some Catholics trying to go to Christ through Mary, that they never leave Mary.”
Mary is presently united to her son Christ and to her spouse, the Holy Spirit, and to her father God in Heaven. Unless you have attained a state above this, you really cannot say that Mary is leading you away from Christ.
Remember, in the Church Triumphant, there is total unity. You will not find discord and selfish vanity leading to destruction like you find in some Christian churches on Earth. Mary can make no request that defies this harmony. And we know from Bible passages that enforce the practice of the intercession of the saints that God wants us to rely on each other whether those we rely on are in this world or the next.
Your imperfect understanding of Perfection does not beg an apology from God.
Pointing out abuses of Marian devotion in other cultures (like the Maya) as a good reason to do away with it makes about as much sense as doing away with Christ because of the abusive worship offered to Him by Mormons and Gnostics or the imperfect reverence given to Him as a mere human prophet by Muslims and Jews.
Just because they do not understand does not make the concept of the Incarnation (or the Trinity) illegitimate. Just because they are confused does mean we should pretend the scope of Truth is much smaller than you can deal with.
When you are a child of God, your cup is supposed to runneth over. You can take Marian devotion or you can leave it but nothing gives you the right to disparage God’s universal plan in a way that makes her seem somehow dangerous or misleading. This is Jesus’ momma you are talking about here. Not only does he love her, but he RESPECTS her.
Remember in Luke it was Elizabeth, FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT who called Mary “the Mother of my Lord”. We already know the text of the Bible is inspired (meaning God-breathed). Here we have a holy highlighter glowing away like fire from Heaven. The Mother of my Lord, said the Holy Spirit.
In one of his speeches, Cardinal Ratzinger mused “there is a reason why Christianity created the study of theology.”
Finally, I suspect the reason both Joseph and JR disparage Marian devotion is because they do not practice it. If this is out of simple ignorance — your lack of formation or research — then you are not so guilty. But you have no right to profess incomplete knowledge and then disparage Marian devotion.
For such people, I have as harsh criticism as I do for the likes of Dan Brown and ABC television. Do not make your imperfect understanding into Church doctrine a pretext to attack Church doctrine.
Dan Brown constantly gets Church teaching wrong — mostly backwards — in his Code. Then he makes a big deal explaining that these teachings are what is wrong with Christianity. Give me a break. An ounce of sincerity, please!
Mary is my mother too. She led me into the One True Church. I was praying rosaries before I even considered going into RCIA. As a brother of Christ, baptized into His grace, I am emphatically NOT symbolically her child — I AM her child.
And so are you. In true imitation to the sinless Christ, you ought to show her the respect He does.
Happy Mother’s Day, O Mystical Rose!!!!
Also, I have never heard of such abuses from Maya. My fiancee goes to Guatemala frequently and only has the highest praise for their worship. I don’t suppose you could reference a source?
The most annoying thing about Oprah for me is how she is such a spineless suck-up to her star guests.
Earlier this week, I saw a bit of her show with the cast from Will & Grace and they were talking about bowel movements. Rather than change the topic, she totally bought into it and encouraged more discussion amid pandering laughter and phony friendliness.
It is really hard to like a person so utterly devoid of a moral backbone. I get the impression she would gladly sell her soul on camera if an A list star asked her to.
Assuming of course, she already has not done so.
I wouldn’t assume that a person doesn’t practice Marian devotion solely because they acknowledge the possibility of it’s abuse.
Of course their is abuse, but I don’t think bringing Medjugorie into the discussion helps. There are numerous reasons to be suspicious of Medjugorie’s authenticity, and there are FAR more Catholics who are devotionally attuned to Lourdes or Fatima.
I know that nobody is saying we should just dump Marian devotion, but I don’t think it generally helpful to judge anything based on it’s abuse.
The thing to do would be to foster true and authentic Marian devotion.
Personally I don’t know a single Catholic who has the sorts of deformed Marian piety being warned against. I’ve never met a Catholic that gave me grounds to think that his relationship with Mary interfered with or obstructed his relationship to Christ. Very much the contrary. In my experience and by my observation one’s devotion to Mary AND the angels AND the saints grows proportionately along with devotion to Christ and the Blessed Trinity so that, as great as the lesser devotions might grow, they can never outstrip the greater, which is growing even more.
Abusus non tollit usus; but it’s even more true that the perceived potentiality for abuse, or past abuse, or reported abuse, does not remove the legitimate use.
J.R. Stoodley,
“I know that some Mayans today worship Mary and sacrifice to her.”
May I also ask for the documentation of the Mayan understanding of Blessed Mary.
“However I think the Church and Catholic apologists should be honest and realistic about this matter.”
Can you give examples of when Catholic Apologists have not been honest and realistic about Marian devotion?
That the attention given relics can and historically has at times become excessive is as plain as a pikestaff (or a bronze serpent)”
Since Joseph said “nor justifies the obsession the Church had in past times with relics” are you in agreement with him that the Church has somehow been wrong about its teaching about relics?
“(more likely to actually happen) to sustitute relationship with her (or any other person) for relationship with God, and we should not pretend otherwise.”
You seem to be saying that having a devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is dangerously close to idolatry in your eyes?
As Tim J. said I won’t assume that a person doesn’t practice Marian devotion. I will just ask do either of you pray the Rosary?
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J
However — and again, this concerns the popular piety and conventional wisdom surronding such devotions — when is Christ’s role as high priest ever emphacized?
I think the most popular form that Catholic piety takes is at the Mass. If Christ’s role of high priest isn’t obvious at the Mass, then it’s not evident anywhere. (During the Mass, there is a litany of saints, in which Mary is mentioned first – that’s the only mention of the Blessed Virgin during the entire Mass.)
The 2nd most popular Catholic practice of piety would be the rosary, which has the Joyful mysteries (the events leading up to Christ’s birth and his childhood), the Luminous mysteries (select events from the 3-year ministry of Christ, culminating in the Institution of the Eucharist), the Sorrowful mysteries (the events from Jesus’s ultimate demonstration of his High Priesthood – the Passion and Crucifixion), and the Glorious mysteries (the events following the Resurrection of Christ, showing him conquering death, giving us the Holy Spirit, and reigning in Heaven, during which he honors the Queen Mother).
Catholics don’t forget Jesus because of Mary. We worship Christ even more through Mary, and we imitate Christ by honoring His mother as he did.
Hope this helps.
StubbleSpark, what have I said that is a direct insult to Mary herself? I am addressing how I believe many Catholics take Marian devotion to unhealthy extremes that can foster warped views of Christ. That addresses Catholics on this Earth, now, not Mary herself.
Jamie, how often do Catholics as a whole study, reflect upon and act upon such passages as these from the Epistle to the Hebrews:
“For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need (Hebrews 4:15-16).”
“…because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. Such a high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever (Hebrews 7: 24-28).”
“The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man (Hebrews 8: 1-2).”
Those passages refer to how Christ fulfilled the necessity for blood atonement and redemption demanded by the Mosaic Law’s system of sacrifices. Since the vast majority of Christians (Catholics and non) are profoundly ignorant of the Mosaic Law, they would not understand what such passages mean.
It’s not a matter of Catholics forgetting Jesus entirely for Mary, but of not fully appreciating Jesus’s legitimate roles. Marian devotion — no matter how noble, sincere and Christ-centered — cannot equate to the unique beauty of Christ’s high priestly role.
“Marian devotion — no matter how noble, sincere and Christ-centered — cannot equate to the unique beauty of Christ’s high priestly role.”.
Natch.
No one engaging in noble, sincere, Christ-centered Marian devotion would even suggest such a thing. It is BECAUSE of Mary’s role as the Mother of Christ (and therefore Mother of the Church) that she is worthy of veneration at all.
I wouldn’t think to approach Mary with such reverence except that she has been exalted by her Son. He is not only Priest, but Prophet and King. He gave us not a High Priestess, but a Queen Mother. It is he who has given her such a priviledged position.
We who practice devotion to her only recognize this with gratitude. Of course there are those who misunderstand or who treat Mary in a superstitious way, but there are people who do that with Jesus himself (treating a statue or a crucifix as some sort of good luck charm or talisman).
Again, Marian devotion should not be judged according to its misuse.
“Marian devotion — no matter how noble, sincere and Christ-centered — cannot equate to the unique beauty of Christ’s high priestly role.”
No one is trying to equate the Blessed Virgin Mary to the role of our High Priest but neither can she be seperated from her union with Christ.
“Since the vast majority of Christians (Catholics and non) are profoundly ignorant of the Mosaic Law, they would not understand what such passages mean.”
But the Church is not ignorant and teaches that our Blessed Lord fulfilled everything of the Old Covenant in His role as High Priest.
Take care and God bless,
Inocencio
J+M+J